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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On December 06 2019 09:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 08:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly. So Israel treating other people badly is that little bit worse really. That they do so with the support of the West is that little bit worse. Etc etc Well they the treat people trying to eliminate them from existence who they are at war with badly, which is terrible. But the numbers they do it in are quite small relative to the others and there is a significant portion of the population who both does not want to do that and put the person responsible for it in Jail. Venezuela and China are doing in much bigger numbers, to their own people, to protect the power and wealth they've stolen from their people with the support of the far left who believe the pretense that they are fighting the evil capitalists, while of course those fighting the evil capitalists are billionaire oligarchs themselves. Maybe all those Palestinians aren’t quite so pissed off if Israel weren’t such tremendous cunts? It’s really not especially complicated And maybe viceversa. But again like I said when it is 1000's of years of bad blood it is much harder to unravel than say Maduro's 10 year reign of terror. Israel Palestine is like 70 years of bad blood. I’ve got a Palestinian buddy whose grandfather fled the destruction of their village. This isn’t impossible to fix, it’s a current issue. If Israel says “my bad”, compensates the refugees and their descendants, gives them right of return, and creates a viable two state solution it’s job done.
Well you’re a lunatic, the idea that ‘not pissing off an entire people’ can be placated by ‘not pissing off an entire people’ is preposterous and unrealistic
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Prediction: Buttigieg will be the next Harris in terms of "front runner? wait, no, 2% support, lol"
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On December 06 2019 09:00 KwarK wrote:...
Israel Palestine is like 70 years of bad blood. I’ve got a Palestinian buddy whose grandfather fled the destruction of their village. This isn’t impossible to fix, it’s a current issue. If Israel says “my bad”, compensates the refugees and their descendants, gives them right of return, and creates a viable two state solution it’s job done.
This take seems pretty naive to me. The surrounding countries were picking fights with Israel before Palestine became any kind of an issue, and while the political stage in the Middle East has shifted somewhat since those days the idea that the *only* remaining barrier to a good solution is fixing the Palestine issue is pretty preposterous.
I don't disagree that something along those lines is probably *necessary* to a good solution but on its own it would be a hell of a long way from "job done".
On December 06 2019 09:11 Mohdoo wrote:
Prediction: Buttigieg will be the next Harris in terms of "front runner? wait, no, 2% support, lol"
That's not exactly a bold prediction. Like Harris, Buttigieg doesn't have rusted-on support and is reliant on taking support from others. This is pretty much guaranteed to happen unless (a) his support lasts until Iowa, (b) he wins Iowa, and (c) he makes a big splash from winning Iowa.
Biden (unless he massively screws up) and Sanders are probably the only candidates who, if they fail, won't fail in that way. (Maybe Warren has a floor of 10% or something now, idk.) Which won't say much about the chances they ever had of winning the primary, it will say something about the amount of rusted-on support they have.
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Between July 18th when aid was paused and Sept 11th when it was released, there were 5 interactions between President Zelensky and senior American officials.
Aid was never tied to investigations in any of those discussions.
2 of those 5 meetings happened after Ukraine learned aid was paused:
VP Pence met President Zelensky on 9/1
Sens. Johnson and Murphy met Zelensky on 9/5
If ever the “quid pro quo” was going to come up, 1 of these 2 meetings would’ve been the time. But it did not.
Quite simply, no funds were withheld and he did not mention in the phone call that he would withhold funds in exchange for the investigation either.
In order for his actions to constitute bribery, we would have had to see a quid pro quo.
www.youtube.com
thehill.com
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On December 06 2019 09:11 Mohdoo wrote:
Prediction: Buttigieg will be the next Harris in terms of "front runner? wait, no, 2% support, lol"
As the support is remaining to be split so evenly, I'm increasingly interested in the hypothetical of a brokered convention and who the superdelegates would put their thumb on the scale for. Who knows maybe a situation where Buttigeg wins a few early states, Biden wins the south, and Warren and Sanders both manage to pick up some wins in important places like California and the rustbelt where Biden's popularity seems low; we could have the delegates weighing in when it gets to round two.
I assume many of the party insiders would support Biden but I wonder if Warren could gain support as well.
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On December 06 2019 09:18 Gorgonoth wrote:Between July 18th when aid was paused and Sept 11th when it was released, there were 5 interactions between President Zelensky and senior American officials. Aid was never tied to investigations in any of those discussions. 2 of those 5 meetings happened after Ukraine learned aid was paused: VP Pence met President Zelensky on 9/1 Sens. Johnson and Murphy met Zelensky on 9/5 If ever the “quid pro quo” was going to come up, 1 of these 2 meetings would’ve been the time. But it did not. Quite simply, no funds were withheld and he did not mention in the phone call that he would withhold funds in exchange for the investigation either. In order for his actions to constitute bribery, we would have had to see a quid pro quo. www.youtube.comthehill.com The White House transcript for the july 25th call.
I would like you to do us a favor though
Trump confession to it on Fox and Friends
www.motherjones.com
Sondland stating it in plain english during his testimony. There was a quid pro quo.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sondland-was-there-a-quid-pro-quo-the-answer-is-yes/2019/11/20/34741e3c-0b92-11ea-8397-a955cd542d00_story.html
Reality disagrees with you.
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United States24701 Posts
On December 06 2019 08:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly.
It might be getting a little away from strictly U.S. politics, but your statement is not accurate for the entire rationale for Israel now existing.... it perhaps is accurate for describing one of the main impetuses that actually lead to the formation of Israel.
Referring to the nation as acting as 'cunts' does kind of undermine the legitimacy of the arguments you are trying to make overall.
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United States43004 Posts
On December 06 2019 09:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:00 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2019 08:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone.
What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to.
That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that.
First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly. So Israel treating other people badly is that little bit worse really. That they do so with the support of the West is that little bit worse. Etc etc Well they the treat people trying to eliminate them from existence who they are at war with badly, which is terrible. But the numbers they do it in are quite small relative to the others and there is a significant portion of the population who both does not want to do that and put the person responsible for it in Jail. Venezuela and China are doing in much bigger numbers, to their own people, to protect the power and wealth they've stolen from their people with the support of the far left who believe the pretense that they are fighting the evil capitalists, while of course those fighting the evil capitalists are billionaire oligarchs themselves. Maybe all those Palestinians aren’t quite so pissed off if Israel weren’t such tremendous cunts? It’s really not especially complicated And maybe viceversa. But again like I said when it is 1000's of years of bad blood it is much harder to unravel than say Maduro's 10 year reign of terror. Israel Palestine is like 70 years of bad blood. I’ve got a Palestinian buddy whose grandfather fled the destruction of their village. This isn’t impossible to fix, it’s a current issue. If Israel says “my bad”, compensates the refugees and their descendants, gives them right of return, and creates a viable two state solution it’s job done. Can the same be said for descendants of slaves in America?
It’s far less current but obviously there are generational injustice issues in the US too.
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On December 06 2019 09:28 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 08:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly.
It might be getting a little away from strictly U.S. politics, but your statement is not accurate for the entire rationale for Israel now existing.... it perhaps is accurate for describing one of the main impetuses that actually lead to the formation of Israel. Referring to the nation as acting as 'cunts' does kind of undermine the legitimacy of the arguments you are trying to make overall.
Well If they are behaving in such a manner what’s to be said?
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On December 06 2019 09:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 06 2019 09:00 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2019 08:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China.
As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it.
The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people.
Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least.
There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did.
Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts.
If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well.
Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly. So Israel treating other people badly is that little bit worse really. That they do so with the support of the West is that little bit worse. Etc etc Well they the treat people trying to eliminate them from existence who they are at war with badly, which is terrible. But the numbers they do it in are quite small relative to the others and there is a significant portion of the population who both does not want to do that and put the person responsible for it in Jail. Venezuela and China are doing in much bigger numbers, to their own people, to protect the power and wealth they've stolen from their people with the support of the far left who believe the pretense that they are fighting the evil capitalists, while of course those fighting the evil capitalists are billionaire oligarchs themselves. Maybe all those Palestinians aren’t quite so pissed off if Israel weren’t such tremendous cunts? It’s really not especially complicated And maybe viceversa. But again like I said when it is 1000's of years of bad blood it is much harder to unravel than say Maduro's 10 year reign of terror. Israel Palestine is like 70 years of bad blood. I’ve got a Palestinian buddy whose grandfather fled the destruction of their village. This isn’t impossible to fix, it’s a current issue. If Israel says “my bad”, compensates the refugees and their descendants, gives them right of return, and creates a viable two state solution it’s job done. Can the same be said for descendants of slaves in America? It’s far less current but obviously there are generational injustice issues in the US too.
That's the point. You can placate some with a quick "here's some cash, a rather large place to live, and we won't fuck with you again." sentiment. But it won't erase "generational injustice issues" that have occurred. There is no quick and easy fix. There is "job done" that erases what has happened. The first step is for both parties (israel and US) to acknowledge and ensure it never happens again. Plus all of the other stuff. But black Americans in the US ain't going anywhere, so...we'll take Georgia and Mississippi instead.
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United States43004 Posts
On December 06 2019 09:11 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:00 KwarK wrote:...
Israel Palestine is like 70 years of bad blood. I’ve got a Palestinian buddy whose grandfather fled the destruction of their village. This isn’t impossible to fix, it’s a current issue. If Israel says “my bad”, compensates the refugees and their descendants, gives them right of return, and creates a viable two state solution it’s job done. This take seems pretty naive to me. The surrounding countries were picking fights with Israel before Palestine became any kind of an issue, and while the political stage in the Middle East has shifted somewhat since those days the idea that the *only* remaining barrier to a good solution is fixing the Palestine issue is pretty preposterous. I don't disagree that something along those lines is probably *necessary* to a good solution but on its own it would be a hell of a long way from "job done".
Israel is on Palestine. It’s an occupation. There are no Israel problems that predate the Palestinian issue.
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United States24701 Posts
You can go back further in history if you want.
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United States43004 Posts
On December 06 2019 09:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:33 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2019 09:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 06 2019 09:00 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2019 08:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out.
Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly. So Israel treating other people badly is that little bit worse really. That they do so with the support of the West is that little bit worse. Etc etc Well they the treat people trying to eliminate them from existence who they are at war with badly, which is terrible. But the numbers they do it in are quite small relative to the others and there is a significant portion of the population who both does not want to do that and put the person responsible for it in Jail. Venezuela and China are doing in much bigger numbers, to their own people, to protect the power and wealth they've stolen from their people with the support of the far left who believe the pretense that they are fighting the evil capitalists, while of course those fighting the evil capitalists are billionaire oligarchs themselves. Maybe all those Palestinians aren’t quite so pissed off if Israel weren’t such tremendous cunts? It’s really not especially complicated And maybe viceversa. But again like I said when it is 1000's of years of bad blood it is much harder to unravel than say Maduro's 10 year reign of terror. Israel Palestine is like 70 years of bad blood. I’ve got a Palestinian buddy whose grandfather fled the destruction of their village. This isn’t impossible to fix, it’s a current issue. If Israel says “my bad”, compensates the refugees and their descendants, gives them right of return, and creates a viable two state solution it’s job done. Can the same be said for descendants of slaves in America? It’s far less current but obviously there are generational injustice issues in the US too. That's the point. You can placate some with a quick "here's some cash, a rather large place to live, and we won't fuck with you again." sentiment. But it won't erase "generational injustice issues" that have occurred. There is no quick and easy fix. There is "job done" that erases what has happened. The first step is for both parties (israel and US) to acknowledge and ensure it never happens again. Plus all of the other stuff. But black Americans in the US ain't going anywhere, so...we'll take Georgia and Mississippi instead.
My buddy has seen his grandpa’s house on Google maps. This is nothing like as complicated as working out the damage that generations of slavery did to African Americans today.
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United States43004 Posts
On December 06 2019 09:48 micronesia wrote:
You can go back further in history if you want.
To the last time there was an Israel? Surely that’s a bit too far.
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On December 06 2019 09:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time. And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad. More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once. I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism.
Why does it, at all?
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On December 06 2019 09:52 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Drumpf but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time. And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad. More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once. I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism. Why does it, at all?
because at this point, other than whataboutism.. its the only other defense.. its not a good one. but its all thats left.
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On December 06 2019 09:52 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +
I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism.
Why does it, at all?
On December 06 2019 10:01 Rebs wrote:
because at this point, other than whataboutism.. its the only other defense.. its not a good one. but its all thats left.
When police, etc. single out crime specifically in majority-black neighbourhoods, is that racism?
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On December 06 2019 10:04 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Drumpf but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time. And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad. More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once. I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism. Why does it, at all? Because what other reason is there for singling out this nation when there are a bunch of others doing just as much or more?
You are shitting on China and partly defending Israel and then accusing others of doing the same. In reverse. How that doesnt slap you in the face is baffling.
Nevermind that China actually has a pretty similar if not the same rationale for what they are doing to Uighurs..
But for that you would actually need to look up things and do some research and not pretend like you did.
Both are aweful. Except world powers have 0 leverage against China, or even India for that matter, they cant stop them. its not possible.
Where as Israel is just the US's baby and as people mentioned has no power over anything except US lobbying. Which kinda just makes it the US in that respect. So we loop back to why no one can stop China..
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EPT
