|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 10:04 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time. And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad. More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once. I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism. Why does it, at all? Because what other reason is there for singling out this nation when there are a bunch of others doing just as much or more?
Said nation had its own people wiped out in living memory so should be capable of better. Said nation isn’t a global powerhouse as China is, there’s no reason they shouldn’t be punched into shape
|
On December 06 2019 10:05 Rebs wrote:
You are shitting on China and partly defending Israel and then accusing others of doing the same. In reverse. How that doesnt slap you in the face is baffling.
I imagine you'd be less baffled if you asked yourself "How is this not slapping me in the face?".
|
|
|
While Israel's treatment of the local population is horrendous, China is actively interning minorities to harvest their organs/sterilizing the women. Both are bad, one's worse.
It's worth noting that Israel has been invading and occupying arab territories since 1947, going well beyond their share.
|
Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 10:11 Erasme wrote:
While Israel's treatment of the local population is horrendous, China is actively interning minorities to harvest their organs/sterilizing the women. Both are bad, one's worse.
China is China.
The ‘West’ can’t get Israel to fall in line?
|
On December 06 2019 10:11 Erasme wrote:...
It's worth noting that Israel has been invading and occupying arab territories since 1947, going well beyond their share.
I don't remember off the top of my head how many of those wars Israel started. They did certainly occupy other people's territories, though.
|
You hear more criticism about Israel because 1) Israel is an ally of the West, we give a ton of money and and are therefore complicit in its behavior, something that is not true for every one of the others that deserve criticism, and 2) amidst the ones that are our allies, we receive more pushback when criticizing Israel than others, so the point necessarily comes up more often due to the existence of the pushback.
Like, the main example would be Saudi Arabia. It's very rare that someone thinks that Saudi Arabia is good or justified, so we don't often have cause to criticize Saudi Arabia. When Saudi Arabia does something bad, eight people show up on the forum and say "yes it's bad", and we move on, because there's no discussion to have. It doesn't mean that we endorse it more than what Israel is doing.
|
On December 06 2019 10:05 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:52 Wombat_NI wrote:
I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism.
Why does it, at all? Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 10:01 Rebs wrote:
because at this point, other than whataboutism.. its the only other defense.. its not a good one. but its all thats left. When police, etc. single out crime specifically in majority-black neighbourhoods, is that racism?
If they did the same shortcut that you did in this presentation, yeah, definitely.
|
On December 06 2019 09:50 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:39 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 06 2019 09:33 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2019 09:07 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On December 06 2019 09:00 KwarK wrote:On December 06 2019 08:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between.
Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not.
Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not.
And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly. So Israel treating other people badly is that little bit worse really. That they do so with the support of the West is that little bit worse. Etc etc Well they the treat people trying to eliminate them from existence who they are at war with badly, which is terrible. But the numbers they do it in are quite small relative to the others and there is a significant portion of the population who both does not want to do that and put the person responsible for it in Jail. Venezuela and China are doing in much bigger numbers, to their own people, to protect the power and wealth they've stolen from their people with the support of the far left who believe the pretense that they are fighting the evil capitalists, while of course those fighting the evil capitalists are billionaire oligarchs themselves. Maybe all those Palestinians aren’t quite so pissed off if Israel weren’t such tremendous cunts? It’s really not especially complicated And maybe viceversa. But again like I said when it is 1000's of years of bad blood it is much harder to unravel than say Maduro's 10 year reign of terror. Israel Palestine is like 70 years of bad blood. I’ve got a Palestinian buddy whose grandfather fled the destruction of their village. This isn’t impossible to fix, it’s a current issue. If Israel says “my bad”, compensates the refugees and their descendants, gives them right of return, and creates a viable two state solution it’s job done. Can the same be said for descendants of slaves in America? It’s far less current but obviously there are generational injustice issues in the US too. That's the point. You can placate some with a quick "here's some cash, a rather large place to live, and we won't fuck with you again." sentiment. But it won't erase "generational injustice issues" that have occurred. There is no quick and easy fix. There is "job done" that erases what has happened. The first step is for both parties (israel and US) to acknowledge and ensure it never happens again. Plus all of the other stuff. But black Americans in the US ain't going anywhere, so...we'll take Georgia and Mississippi instead. My buddy has seen his grandpa’s house on Google maps. This is nothing like as complicated as working out the damage that generations of slavery did to African Americans today.
I lived in a house that housed 4 generations. Nothing to do with the current topic, just thought to drop that in there. The complication is that the world sees Palestine as a problem and Israel to some degree, the victim. So they're going to side with the victim more often than not and Palestine gets shafted.
And, as an aside, can we just say black Americans or blacks? There needs to start being some kind of differentiation between black people born in America and true African Americans. Otherwise, I would like every continental/nationality to be prefaced before American. Just a small peeve of mine.
|
On December 06 2019 10:14 Wombat_NI wrote:
The ‘West’ can’t get Israel to fall in line?
The biggest problem I see is that "getting Israel to fall in line" would not, in as of itself, fix all the problems in Israel's neighbourhood, and Israel knows it. (EDIT: To be clear I'm not referring to ISIS or things that far afield, I'm saying that there would probably still be at a minimum rockets getting fired at Israel now and again.)
If it were practically possible, "getting China to fall in line" or (probably?) Saudi Arabia does not have the same international complications.
|
On December 06 2019 10:15 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 10:11 Erasme wrote:...
It's worth noting that Israel has been invading and occupying arab territories since 1947, going well beyond their share. I don't remember off the top of my head how many of those wars Israel started. They did certainly occupy other people's territories, though.
Depends what do you consider starting a war. I'd say both the english and the americans are somewhat responsible for the ensuing wars. Their policies pleased noone, and in trying to protect a people, they pissed off the majority in the area.
I do believe most of the armed conflicts were started by the arab forces in the area, but it wasn't the "palestinians" as it never was a state or had any army.
|
I mentioned it a little while back but it's worth noting that virtually nothing (other than the ending of the US embargo on Cuba) has more ubiquitous global consensus than that the US is aiding and abetting an illegal occupation of Palestinian territory.
Specifically the US recently defied the rest of the world and international law in support of Israel.
The Trump administration on Friday voted for the first time against a United Nations resolution that condemned Israel’s occupation of the Golan Heights.
While the resolution passed easily through the UN General Assembly, with 151 “yes” votes and only 2 “no” votes, the American position represented a policy shift that could also have implications for the future. The U.S. has previously abstained from voting on the move.
The only other country other than the U.S. who voted against the resolution was Israel itself.
www.haaretz.com
The US and Israel are uniquely alone in this when it comes to the most recent defiance of international law.
EDIT: This obviously places the US in a unique position to hinder or embolden Israel's behavior. The US has chosen to defy the entire rest of the world in support of Israel's globally recognized crimes.
|
Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 10:22 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 10:14 Wombat_NI wrote:
The ‘West’ can’t get Israel to fall in line? The biggest problem I see is that "getting Israel to fall in line" would not, in as of itself, fix all the problems in Israel's neighbourhood, and Israel knows it. (EDIT: To be clear I'm not referring to ISIS or things that far afield, I'm saying that there would probably still be at a minimum rockets getting fired at Israel now and again.) If it were practically possible, "getting China to fall in line" or (probably?) Saudi Arabia does not have the same international complications.
Who cares? It’s bollocks where the US talks about Israel being their ‘greatest ally’(despite doing fucking nothing to help the US in any foreign entaglement)
It’s not complicated at all, but yet it still persists anyway.Hm wonder why.
|
On December 06 2019 09:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time. And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad. More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once. I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism.
Israel is a particularly bad actor in the region. Worse than Iran and probably equal to Saudi Arabia in terms of "ruining the world".
|
|
|
Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 10:55 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 10:49 Mohdoo wrote:On December 06 2019 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 09:02 Gorsameth wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time. And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad. More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once. I totally agree with your second point, in fact it was my point. So lets not keep banging the Israel drum and go after them all. Because when you single out Israel and not the other bad actors it does become to look and feel a lot like antisemitism. Israel is a particularly bad actor in the region. Worse than Iran and probably equal to Saudi Arabia in terms of "ruining the world". I agree that they are bad actor, I'm not sure particularly. Saudi Arabia, Iran Syria, Egypt and Iraq all have done some pretty terrible things over time and recently. And what is your purposed solution to the problem?
None of those countries have a US rhetoric of ‘they’re our greatest ally’ and policies that push out from that.
|
On December 06 2019 10:45 Wombat_NI wrote:...
Who cares? It’s bollocks where the US talks about Israel being their ‘greatest ally’(despite doing fucking nothing to help the US in any foreign entaglement)
It’s not complicated at all, but yet it still persists anyway.Hm wonder why.
I agree that it's not complicated whether Israel is in any way morally justified in occupying Palestine etc. That part is not complicated.
The actual real-life consequences of them stopping or being made to stop, on the other hand, I would expect to be very complicated indeed. Which doesn't mean they shouldn't. It would just be the first step towards fixing the problems in that part of the world, with a fair few difficult steps to go.
|
On December 06 2019 10:58 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 10:55 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 10:49 Mohdoo wrote:
Israel is a particularly bad actor in the region. Worse than Iran and probably equal to Saudi Arabia in terms of "ruining the world". I agree that they are bad actor, I'm not sure particularly. Saudi Arabia, Iran Syria, Egypt and Iraq all have done some pretty terrible things over time and recently. And what is your purposed solution to the problem? None of those countries have a US rhetoric of ‘they’re our greatest ally’ and policies that push our from that.
Mohdoo specifically claimed that Israel was a worse actor than Iran and probably equal to Saudi Arabia, with no further context. You shifting the goalposts on JimmiC's reply to that specific statement is neither respectful nor helpful.
|
|
|
Northern Ireland23815 Posts
On December 06 2019 10:58 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 10:45 Wombat_NI wrote:...
Who cares? It’s bollocks where the US talks about Israel being their ‘greatest ally’(despite doing fucking nothing to help the US in any foreign entaglement)
It’s not complicated at all, but yet it still persists anyway.Hm wonder why.
I agree that it's not complicated whether Israel is in any way morally justified in occupying Palestine etc. That part is not complicated. The actual real-life consequences of them stopping or being made to stop, on the other hand, I would expect to be very complicated indeed. Which doesn't mean they shouldn't. It would just be the first step towards fixing the problems in that part of the world, with a fair few difficult steps to go.
Where’s the complexity? It’s really not complicated at all
Don’t throw non Jews into substandard accommodations of various kinds, don’t expand your settlements beyond previously agree borders etc
There’s nothing complicated about this whatsoever
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
