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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Those are defenses to a charge of having committed a crime. If they succeed, the defendant is regarded as not having committed the crime, they don’t render a crime legal to commit.
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On December 06 2019 05:33 farvacola wrote:
Those are defenses to a charge of having committed a crime. If they succeed, the defendant is regarded as not having committed the crime, they don’t render a crime legal to commit.
Before we get off track, "illegal crimes" was just a redundancy mistake when I deleted a portion of a previously written sentence. That wasn't what I was trying to say. I'm simply asking for the airtight, comprehensive proof of a specific action of Trump which he can be impeached on; as was implied by Mohdoo saying he was 100% certain he committed a crime.
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Why do you use the word “crime” when the Constitution uses the phrase “high crimes and misdemeanors?” The question stands for Mohdoo as well 
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On December 06 2019 05:39 Gorgonoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 05:33 farvacola wrote:
Those are defenses to a charge of having committed a crime. If they succeed, the defendant is regarded as not having committed the crime, they don’t render a crime legal to commit. Before we get off track, "illegal crimes" was just a redundancy mistake when I deleted a portion of a previously written sentence. That wasn't what I was trying to say. I'm simply asking for the airtight, comprehensive proof of a specific action of Trump which he can be impeached on; as was implied by Mohdoo saying he was 100% certain he committed a crime. Pick any from an every growing list that Trump has publicly admitted to.
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On December 06 2019 05:41 farvacola wrote:Why do you use the word “crime” when the Constitution uses the phrase “high crimes and misdemeanors?” The question stands for Mohdoo as well
Because they're interchangeable. "High crimes" doesn't refer to a particular class of crimes, but instead meant simply crimes committed by senior officials in unique positions of authority. It's my understanding that the term was a vague and encompassing term that was borrowed from British law.
Not sure why this is such a sticking point because I don't see the net difference between the question, did Trump commit "High crimes" or "Crimes" when in fact "High crimes" aren't distinctly defined in the Constitution anyway.
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On December 06 2019 06:03 Gorgonoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 05:41 farvacola wrote:Why do you use the word “crime” when the Constitution uses the phrase “high crimes and misdemeanors?” The question stands for Mohdoo as well Because they're interchangeable. "High crimes" doesn't refer to a particular class of crimes, but instead meant simply crimes committed by senior officials in unique positions of authority. It's my understanding that the term was a vague and encompassing term that was borrowed from British law. Not sure why this is such a sticking point because I don't see the net difference between the question, did Trump commit "High crimes" or "Crimes" when in fact "High crimes" aren't distinctly defined in the Constitution anyway.
I didn’t mean to direct you to “high crimes,” rather to the misdemeanors part. Why isn’t anyone asking whether Trump committed misdemeanors as set forth in the Constitution?
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On December 06 2019 06:07 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 06:03 Gorgonoth wrote:On December 06 2019 05:41 farvacola wrote:Why do you use the word “crime” when the Constitution uses the phrase “high crimes and misdemeanors?” The question stands for Mohdoo as well Because they're interchangeable. "High crimes" doesn't refer to a particular class of crimes, but instead meant simply crimes committed by senior officials in unique positions of authority. It's my understanding that the term was a vague and encompassing term that was borrowed from British law. Not sure why this is such a sticking point because I don't see the net difference between the question, did Trump commit "High crimes" or "Crimes" when in fact "High crimes" aren't distinctly defined in the Constitution anyway. I didn’t mean to direct you to “high crimes,” rather to the misdemeanors part. Why isn’t anyone asking whether Trump committed misdemeanors as set forth in the Constitution?
Well the only misdemeanors mentioned are treason and bribery. So far all my following of the hearings have failed to produce clear evidence of bribery with the trump ukraine phone call.
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On December 06 2019 06:22 Gorgonoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 06:07 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2019 06:03 Gorgonoth wrote:On December 06 2019 05:41 farvacola wrote:Why do you use the word “crime” when the Constitution uses the phrase “high crimes and misdemeanors?” The question stands for Mohdoo as well Because they're interchangeable. "High crimes" doesn't refer to a particular class of crimes, but instead meant simply crimes committed by senior officials in unique positions of authority. It's my understanding that the term was a vague and encompassing term that was borrowed from British law. Not sure why this is such a sticking point because I don't see the net difference between the question, did Trump commit "High crimes" or "Crimes" when in fact "High crimes" aren't distinctly defined in the Constitution anyway. I didn’t mean to direct you to “high crimes,” rather to the misdemeanors part. Why isn’t anyone asking whether Trump committed misdemeanors as set forth in the Constitution? Well the only misdemeanors mentioned are treason and bribery. So far all my following of the hearings have failed to produce clear evidence of bribery with the trump ukraine phone call. really? The whole investigate Hunter Biden and we will give you the military aid Congress promised you doesn't rise to bribery for you?
Or do you think that one is still unproven, despite Trump admitting it on television and who knows how many witnesses that confirmed it.
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On December 06 2019 06:22 Gorgonoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 06:07 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2019 06:03 Gorgonoth wrote:On December 06 2019 05:41 farvacola wrote:Why do you use the word “crime” when the Constitution uses the phrase “high crimes and misdemeanors?” The question stands for Mohdoo as well Because they're interchangeable. "High crimes" doesn't refer to a particular class of crimes, but instead meant simply crimes committed by senior officials in unique positions of authority. It's my understanding that the term was a vague and encompassing term that was borrowed from British law. Not sure why this is such a sticking point because I don't see the net difference between the question, did Trump commit "High crimes" or "Crimes" when in fact "High crimes" aren't distinctly defined in the Constitution anyway. I didn’t mean to direct you to “high crimes,” rather to the misdemeanors part. Why isn’t anyone asking whether Trump committed misdemeanors as set forth in the Constitution? Well the only misdemeanors mentioned are treason and bribery. So far all my following of the hearings have failed to produce clear evidence of bribery with the trump ukraine phone call.
Can you please elaborate on how the hearings have failed to produce clear evidence of bribery? What in particular would you have needed to see, to be convinced that bribery occurred?
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well.
Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out.
Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it.
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin.
Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly.
So Israel treating other people badly is that little bit worse really. That they do so with the support of the West is that little bit worse. Etc etc
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
I am mad about this other behaviour.
China is China, regardless of ones thoughts they’ll do their own thing and you can’t really smack them around.
Israel, really? It’s a relatively small nation of no huge economic important that is ‘America’s greatest ally’ despite largely avoiding entanglement in wars.
Israel isn’t an economic powerhouse, there’s no reason the US can’t make it play ball other than it’s lobbying intetrets
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On December 06 2019 08:39 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 08:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly. So Israel treating other people badly is that little bit worse really. That they do so with the support of the West is that little bit worse. Etc etc Well they the treat people trying to eliminate them from existence who they are at war with badly, which is terrible. But the numbers they do it in are quite small relative to the others and there is a significant portion of the population who both does not want to do that and put the person responsible for it in Jail. Venezuela and China are doing in much bigger numbers, to their own people, to protect the power and wealth they've stolen from their people with the support of the far left who believe the pretense that they are fighting the evil capitalists, while of course those fighting the evil capitalists are billionaire oligarchs themselves.
Maybe all those Palestinians aren’t quite so pissed off if Israel weren’t such tremendous cunts? It’s really not especially complicated
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United States43004 Posts
On December 06 2019 08:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 08:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly. So Israel treating other people badly is that little bit worse really. That they do so with the support of the West is that little bit worse. Etc etc Well they the treat people trying to eliminate them from existence who they are at war with badly, which is terrible. But the numbers they do it in are quite small relative to the others and there is a significant portion of the population who both does not want to do that and put the person responsible for it in Jail. Venezuela and China are doing in much bigger numbers, to their own people, to protect the power and wealth they've stolen from their people with the support of the far left who believe the pretense that they are fighting the evil capitalists, while of course those fighting the evil capitalists are billionaire oligarchs themselves. Maybe all those Palestinians aren’t quite so pissed off if Israel weren’t such tremendous cunts? It’s really not especially complicated And maybe viceversa. But again like I said when it is 1000's of years of bad blood it is much harder to unravel than say Maduro's 10 year reign of terror.
Israel Palestine is like 70 years of bad blood. I’ve got a Palestinian buddy whose grandfather fled the destruction of their village. This isn’t impossible to fix, it’s a current issue. If Israel says “my bad”, compensates the refugees and their descendants, gives them right of return, and creates a viable two state solution it’s job done.
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On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 00:05 Wombat_NI wrote:
There are layers to ethnic cleansing, even the Nazis didn’t go straight to exterminating Jews, they eventually came to the ‘Final Solution’ after years of escalating.
Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Israel's issues go well beyond Netanyahu. They have been hiding from any form of criticism against the state, not the people, by shouting antisemitism for a long time.
And yes as always there are other countries that also do bad things, they are also still bad.
More then 1 country can be bad and we can be mad at all of them at once.
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On December 06 2019 09:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 08:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 08:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 08:16 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 07:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 06:06 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2019 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 06 2019 00:23 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Which is why it early to proclaim it as happening, he could happen, but treating a presumption like a fact is very dangerous. There is a ton of people against what the right in Israel is doing in the west bank as well. Also, there is a real threat to all the jews in Israel. What would happen if all the countries pulled their support tomorrow? In current news on the impeachment NPR had a great break down on the phone record's. They show the dates and times of the call's between Giuliani and the white house. Nunes calls and the mystery "-1" number that everyone thinks is Trump but has yet to be confirmed. If it is confirmed it will be another nail in the coffin for non partisan people and sadly probably meaningless to everyone who still support trump. https://www.npr.org/2019/12/04/784819728/giuliani-nunes-and-1-a-look-at-what-the-impeachment-report-phone-records-mean No specifically the point of my post was that it’s still ethnic cleansing way before the ‘exterminating everyone’ point, not that it’s not ethnic cleansing because Israel aren’t ritually exterminating everyone. What would happen? Really? There’s no justification for it, whatsoever and Israel isn’t a global power like China that we have to pay lip service to. That neighbours aren’t exactly fans of Israel is irrelevant, the state only exists because world powers felt the Holocaust was a bit shit, that people descended from those people treat another people as they do is a disgrace anyway but especially informed by that. First I think it is a huge issue if we are only willing to crack down on people doing horrible things that are not big enough economic powers that it does not hurt us. China is rounding up people of a specific ethnicity, to put them in camps for "reeducation" and not all of them make it out. It is state sponsored organized and actively concealed. It is done to their own citizens and those people provide no threat to them, other than that they worship a different god than the communist party of China. As I started off I don't know enough about the situation in Israel to make a determination about whether or not what they are doing is ethnic cleansing so I don't want to be put in a position of defending them when I'm not sure that I would if I knew more. What I do know is it is far more complex because there are actually large groups of people who want them wiped from the planet, and they still don't even have a peace agreement with Palestine. There is no simple solution to Israel or Palestine as both groups feel that they have rights to the land for holy reasons and both seem willing to kill the other. Right now Israel and the Jews have more might there so they are abusing it, 70 years ago that wasn't the case, 200 years before that no, 1000 years ago no, and so on. It is a deep seeded religious war that scholars who have studied it there whole lives don't agree and don't have any good solutions for solving it. The China one is simple, they should just stop their ethnic cleansing and stop trying to eradicate a entire culture of people. Israeli security forces killed 290 Palestinians in 2018. 5287 people were killed during Venezuelan security operations in 2018, and those are the "registered" number of extrajudicial killings linked to "resistance to authority", They include such crimes as a starving indigenous tribe trying to get food aid and being shot. Can you imagine how many go unreported by the government supported colectivo's? It is disturbing to say the least. There is a reason why so many Jews through out the world think this type of talk is just people hiding their antisemitism because Hamas has declared Jihad and does want to wipe Israel from the map, so does Iran. Many of them remember actually being rounded up and sent to gas chambers, or have direct relatives who did. Does that justify some of their governments heinous acts, no it doesn't. And the center and the left with-in Israel itself is trying to fight that right now. People should be supporting the people within the country (that make up a huge %) that want to do the right thing instead of denouncing the whole country and acting as if they are evil. I have yet to hear anyone say "Venezuela is ethnic cleansing", in fact there is way way to many people on the left who support Maduro and justify his heinous acts. If you want to be about human rights great, we all should be, but it shouldn't be about human rights of the people on the left or right. It should be about human rights of everyone. And sadly the far right does not have exclusive rights to being horrible horrible people who do horrible things, the far left has a pretty ugly history and sadly current record as well. Well not Israel has a terrible human rights record and anyone be they far left or to the opposite doesn’t really have to do much to point this out. Its bollocks and everyone who takes 5 seconds to consider it knows it’s bollocks, there’s no complexity to it. There is literately 1000's of years of complexity to Israel, and the same for antisemitism. And they get to be target of hate from Left right and everywhere in between. Does that make what their far right leader, who they are trying to bring up on corruption charges for, not a horrible person who has done horrible things. No it does not. Does it mean that we should not have compassion for the Israeli's, and Jewish people in general for their plight, of course not. And if you are really mad at this, you should be really really really mad at China and Venezuela's behavior. Because while you are not to my knowledge guilty of it there are some members of the far left who constantly apologize for those countries behaviors because they claim to be socialists. And the people who do that are no different than the right wing people who support violence of their perceived enemies. Those people are just the other side of the same coin. Well not really, the entrire rationale for Israel existing is that Jews were treated rather badly. So Israel treating other people badly is that little bit worse really. That they do so with the support of the West is that little bit worse. Etc etc Well they the treat people trying to eliminate them from existence who they are at war with badly, which is terrible. But the numbers they do it in are quite small relative to the others and there is a significant portion of the population who both does not want to do that and put the person responsible for it in Jail. Venezuela and China are doing in much bigger numbers, to their own people, to protect the power and wealth they've stolen from their people with the support of the far left who believe the pretense that they are fighting the evil capitalists, while of course those fighting the evil capitalists are billionaire oligarchs themselves. Maybe all those Palestinians aren’t quite so pissed off if Israel weren’t such tremendous cunts? It’s really not especially complicated And maybe viceversa. But again like I said when it is 1000's of years of bad blood it is much harder to unravel than say Maduro's 10 year reign of terror. Israel Palestine is like 70 years of bad blood. I’ve got a Palestinian buddy whose grandfather fled the destruction of their village. This isn’t impossible to fix, it’s a current issue. If Israel says “my bad”, compensates the refugees and their descendants, gives them right of return, and creates a viable two state solution it’s job done.
Can the same be said for descendants of slaves in America?
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EPT
