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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Policing of substances pretty much always leads to poor people being punished and wealthy/powerful people profiting off of it (and often using it as well).
Alcohol is an interesting example because you can pretty easily purchase at many stores and consume enough to kill you in 1 sitting, and it can kill you if you quit cold turkey. Yet it's consumption (percentage of group) goes up with education and income, unlike a lot of criminalized substances.
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Anything harder than marijuana should be banned, save alcohol. Other than those two, I couldn't care less what happens to opioid use and their many variations. Just leave me my booze and no one gets hurt. Simple.
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On September 13 2019 05:16 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 05:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Anything harder than marijuana should be banned, save alcohol. Other than those two, I couldn't care less what happens to opioid use and their many variations. Just leave me my booze and no one gets hurt. Simple. Why banned? They are banned right now and their is a massive crisis.
I meant taking it to the maximum-mer extreme. Taking Yurie's utopian/dystopian viewpoints and applying it to everything but marijuana and alcohol.
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I'm playing the role of the typical American. Don't really care how it goes down except I don't want anything messing with my preferred choice of drug. I can get behind better treatment instead of harsher punishments on principle. But we know the reality of the situation.
Lobbyist and campaign finance reform first. Get the big money out of politics. Then we can start talking about this. Apparently not enough people have died yet from tobacco or alcohol or opioids (although the sackler family just used their personal wealth to settle suits) to get changes made. We can only hope more states take up the legal battles and get things fixed.
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United States43199 Posts
It’s weird that there is discussion of a hypothetical totalitarian state banning a popular drug and how that would work without mention of Chinese opium which was wiped out by Mao.
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Wasn't that wiped out about two generations ago?
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Been watching the debate for about 10 minutes, did they just cut the stage down to 3 people?
EDIT:LMAO Joe Biden responded to Bernie pointing out we pay more for less on healthcare with "This is America".
Then Klobachar pops up, why is she on stage?
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This debate so far has been so much better, they are actually going at it. I'd pay so much for someone up there to bring up or use the phrase "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor," the big lie of Obamacare that lead to Democratic electoral route. Amazing that so soon after the ACA they pretend nothing has really changed.
Still great nonetheless.
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On September 13 2019 09:35 Introvert wrote:
This debate so far has been so much better, they are actually going at it. I'd pay so much for someone up there to bring up or use the phrase "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor," the big lie of Obamacare that lead to Democratic electoral route. Amazing that so soon after the ACA they pretend nothing has really changed.
Still great nonetheless.
Bernie did, said it's on Joe Biden to explain it. The ACA was basically a Nixon plan rehashed by Romney at the state level, then accepted as a compromise between the center and right wings of the Democratic party.
It's quite impressive Republicans managed to make defending a Republican plan/policy into a Democrat party staple.
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On September 13 2019 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 09:35 Introvert wrote:
This debate so far has been so much better, they are actually going at it. I'd pay so much for someone up there to bring up or use the phrase "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor," the big lie of Obamacare that lead to Democratic electoral route. Amazing that so soon after the ACA they pretend nothing has really changed.
Still great nonetheless. Bernie did, said it's on Joe Biden to explain it. The ACA was basically a Nixon plan rehashed by Romney at the state level, then accepted as a compromise between the center and right wings of the Democratic party. It's quite impressive Republicans managed to make defending a Republican plan/policy into a Democrat party staple.
are you sure he used that phrase, much less in the way I'm describing?
It's amusing today that somehow the plan Romney used in deep blue Massachusetts became a "Republican plan." And that was because Romney had to deal with a super-majority Dem state legislature. If you look at the Heritage plan, which is where I know this is going, we can see that the only real thing the two plans had in common is a mandate, which isn't even an American idea, as other countries have mandates. Nevermind Republicans never campaigned on either Romneycare or the actual Heritage plan. Conservatives lambasted the GOP for nominating the one person who couldn't run against Obamacare.
This "Obamacare is a Republican plan" is fun meme, but it's fundamentally false. This issue is so complicated that saying that becomes wrong.
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On September 13 2019 09:56 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:35 Introvert wrote:
This debate so far has been so much better, they are actually going at it. I'd pay so much for someone up there to bring up or use the phrase "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor," the big lie of Obamacare that lead to Democratic electoral route. Amazing that so soon after the ACA they pretend nothing has really changed.
Still great nonetheless. Bernie did, said it's on Joe Biden to explain it. The ACA was basically a Nixon plan rehashed by Romney at the state level, then accepted as a compromise between the center and right wings of the Democratic party. It's quite impressive Republicans managed to make defending a Republican plan/policy into a Democrat party staple. are you sure he used that phrase, much less in the way I'm describing? It's amusing today that somehow the plan Romney used in deep blue Massachusetts became a "Republican plan." And that was because Romney had to deal with a super-majority Dem state legislature. If you look at the Heritage plan, which is where I know this is going, we can see that the only real thing the two plans had in common is a mandate, which isn't even an American idea, as other countries have mandates. Nevermind Republicans never campaigned on either Romneycare or the actual Heritage plan. Conservatives lambasted the GOP for nominating the one person who couldn't run against Obamacare. This "Obamacare is a Republican plan" is fun meme, but it's fundamentally false.
I disagree. The essence of the plan goes back to Nixon.
In February 1974, Republican President Richard Nixon proposed, in essence, today’s Affordable Care Act. Under Nixon’s plan all but the smallest employers would provide insurance to their workers or pay a penalty, an expanded Medicaid-type program would insure the poor, and subsidies would be provided to low-income individuals and small employers. Sound familiar?
Private insurers were delighted with the Nixon plan but Democrats preferred a system based on Social Security and Medicare
The Republican plan was built around private insurers and the Democratic vision built around SS and Medicare.
There’s a deep irony to all this. Had Democrats stuck to the original Democratic vision and built comprehensive health insurance on Social Security and Medicare, it would have been cheaper, simpler, and more widely accepted by the public. And Republicans would be hollering anyway.
www.csmonitor.com
EDIT: But with the EPA and other stuff Nixon is probably a flaming liberal now in the eyes of today's Republicans?
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On September 13 2019 10:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 09:56 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:35 Introvert wrote:
This debate so far has been so much better, they are actually going at it. I'd pay so much for someone up there to bring up or use the phrase "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor," the big lie of Obamacare that lead to Democratic electoral route. Amazing that so soon after the ACA they pretend nothing has really changed.
Still great nonetheless. Bernie did, said it's on Joe Biden to explain it. The ACA was basically a Nixon plan rehashed by Romney at the state level, then accepted as a compromise between the center and right wings of the Democratic party. It's quite impressive Republicans managed to make defending a Republican plan/policy into a Democrat party staple. are you sure he used that phrase, much less in the way I'm describing? It's amusing today that somehow the plan Romney used in deep blue Massachusetts became a "Republican plan." And that was because Romney had to deal with a super-majority Dem state legislature. If you look at the Heritage plan, which is where I know this is going, we can see that the only real thing the two plans had in common is a mandate, which isn't even an American idea, as other countries have mandates. Nevermind Republicans never campaigned on either Romneycare or the actual Heritage plan. Conservatives lambasted the GOP for nominating the one person who couldn't run against Obamacare. This "Obamacare is a Republican plan" is fun meme, but it's fundamentally false. I disagree. The essence of the plan goes back to Nixon. Show nested quote +In February 1974, Republican President Richard Nixon proposed, in essence, today’s Affordable Care Act. Under Nixon’s plan all but the smallest employers would provide insurance to their workers or pay a penalty, an expanded Medicaid-type program would insure the poor, and subsidies would be provided to low-income individuals and small employers. Sound familiar?
Private insurers were delighted with the Nixon plan but Democrats preferred a system based on Social Security and Medicare The Republican plan was built around private insurers and the Democratic vision built around SS and Medicare. Show nested quote +There’s a deep irony to all this. Had Democrats stuck to the original Democratic vision and built comprehensive health insurance on Social Security and Medicare, it would have been cheaper, simpler, and more widely accepted by the public. And Republicans would be hollering anyway. www.csmonitor.com
Notice how he skips 30 years? The mandate, when proposed on the right, was highly divisive, with most of the support thinking of it as the best way to deal with the free-rider problem. And there's a whole lot more to all these plans. Most Republican plans lead to a net decrease in government involvement in healthcare and health insurance. The Democrat plans do the opposite. It's really that simple.
EDIT: But with the EPA and other stuff Nixon is probably a flaming liberal now in the eyes of today's Republicans?
In many ways yes, he was a liberal Republican. In fact that is general consensus I think at this point. At the very least he was a "moderate" Rockefeller Republican.
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On September 13 2019 10:11 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 10:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:56 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:35 Introvert wrote:
This debate so far has been so much better, they are actually going at it. I'd pay so much for someone up there to bring up or use the phrase "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor," the big lie of Obamacare that lead to Democratic electoral route. Amazing that so soon after the ACA they pretend nothing has really changed.
Still great nonetheless. Bernie did, said it's on Joe Biden to explain it. The ACA was basically a Nixon plan rehashed by Romney at the state level, then accepted as a compromise between the center and right wings of the Democratic party. It's quite impressive Republicans managed to make defending a Republican plan/policy into a Democrat party staple. are you sure he used that phrase, much less in the way I'm describing? It's amusing today that somehow the plan Romney used in deep blue Massachusetts became a "Republican plan." And that was because Romney had to deal with a super-majority Dem state legislature. If you look at the Heritage plan, which is where I know this is going, we can see that the only real thing the two plans had in common is a mandate, which isn't even an American idea, as other countries have mandates. Nevermind Republicans never campaigned on either Romneycare or the actual Heritage plan. Conservatives lambasted the GOP for nominating the one person who couldn't run against Obamacare. This "Obamacare is a Republican plan" is fun meme, but it's fundamentally false. I disagree. The essence of the plan goes back to Nixon. In February 1974, Republican President Richard Nixon proposed, in essence, today’s Affordable Care Act. Under Nixon’s plan all but the smallest employers would provide insurance to their workers or pay a penalty, an expanded Medicaid-type program would insure the poor, and subsidies would be provided to low-income individuals and small employers. Sound familiar?
Private insurers were delighted with the Nixon plan but Democrats preferred a system based on Social Security and Medicare The Republican plan was built around private insurers and the Democratic vision built around SS and Medicare. There’s a deep irony to all this. Had Democrats stuck to the original Democratic vision and built comprehensive health insurance on Social Security and Medicare, it would have been cheaper, simpler, and more widely accepted by the public. And Republicans would be hollering anyway. www.csmonitor.com Notice how he skips 30 years? The mandate, when proposed on the right, was highly divisive, with most of the support thinking of it as the best way to deal with the free-rider problem. And there's a whole lot more to all these plans. Most Republican plans lead to a net decrease in government involvement in healthcare and health insurance. The Democrat plans do the opposite. It's really that simple.
I just didn't include the commentary on the intervening years.
In 1989, Stuart M. Butler of the conservative Heritage Foundation came up with a plan that would “mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance.”
Insurance companies loved Butler’s plan so much it found its way into several bills introduced by Republican lawmakers in 1993. Among the supporters were senators Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Charles Grassley, R-Iowa (who now oppose the mandate under the Affordable Care Act). Newt Gingrich, who became Speaker of the House in 1995, was also a big proponent.
I can give you that it's support among Republicans wasn't/isn't ubiquitous though.
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On September 13 2019 10:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 10:11 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 10:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:56 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:35 Introvert wrote:
This debate so far has been so much better, they are actually going at it. I'd pay so much for someone up there to bring up or use the phrase "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor," the big lie of Obamacare that lead to Democratic electoral route. Amazing that so soon after the ACA they pretend nothing has really changed.
Still great nonetheless. Bernie did, said it's on Joe Biden to explain it. The ACA was basically a Nixon plan rehashed by Romney at the state level, then accepted as a compromise between the center and right wings of the Democratic party. It's quite impressive Republicans managed to make defending a Republican plan/policy into a Democrat party staple. are you sure he used that phrase, much less in the way I'm describing? It's amusing today that somehow the plan Romney used in deep blue Massachusetts became a "Republican plan." And that was because Romney had to deal with a super-majority Dem state legislature. If you look at the Heritage plan, which is where I know this is going, we can see that the only real thing the two plans had in common is a mandate, which isn't even an American idea, as other countries have mandates. Nevermind Republicans never campaigned on either Romneycare or the actual Heritage plan. Conservatives lambasted the GOP for nominating the one person who couldn't run against Obamacare. This "Obamacare is a Republican plan" is fun meme, but it's fundamentally false. I disagree. The essence of the plan goes back to Nixon. In February 1974, Republican President Richard Nixon proposed, in essence, today’s Affordable Care Act. Under Nixon’s plan all but the smallest employers would provide insurance to their workers or pay a penalty, an expanded Medicaid-type program would insure the poor, and subsidies would be provided to low-income individuals and small employers. Sound familiar?
Private insurers were delighted with the Nixon plan but Democrats preferred a system based on Social Security and Medicare The Republican plan was built around private insurers and the Democratic vision built around SS and Medicare. There’s a deep irony to all this. Had Democrats stuck to the original Democratic vision and built comprehensive health insurance on Social Security and Medicare, it would have been cheaper, simpler, and more widely accepted by the public. And Republicans would be hollering anyway. www.csmonitor.com Notice how he skips 30 years? The mandate, when proposed on the right, was highly divisive, with most of the support thinking of it as the best way to deal with the free-rider problem. And there's a whole lot more to all these plans. Most Republican plans lead to a net decrease in government involvement in healthcare and health insurance. The Democrat plans do the opposite. It's really that simple. I just didn't include the commentary on the intervening years. Show nested quote +In 1989, Stuart M. Butler of the conservative Heritage Foundation came up with a plan that would “mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance.”
Insurance companies loved Butler’s plan so much it found its way into several bills introduced by Republican lawmakers in 1993. Among the supporters were senators Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Charles Grassley, R-Iowa (who now oppose the mandate under the Affordable Care Act). Newt Gingrich, who became Speaker of the House in 1995, was also a big proponent. I can give you that it's support among Republicans wasn't/isn't ubiquitous though.
I was already obliquely referring to that earlier. Here's a right-leaning healthcare polciy guy discussing mostly the mandate,
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2012/02/07/the-tortuous-conservative-history-of-the-individual-mandate/#1aa185a955fe
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On September 13 2019 10:19 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 10:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 10:11 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 10:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:56 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:35 Introvert wrote:
This debate so far has been so much better, they are actually going at it. I'd pay so much for someone up there to bring up or use the phrase "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor," the big lie of Obamacare that lead to Democratic electoral route. Amazing that so soon after the ACA they pretend nothing has really changed.
Still great nonetheless. Bernie did, said it's on Joe Biden to explain it. The ACA was basically a Nixon plan rehashed by Romney at the state level, then accepted as a compromise between the center and right wings of the Democratic party. It's quite impressive Republicans managed to make defending a Republican plan/policy into a Democrat party staple. are you sure he used that phrase, much less in the way I'm describing? It's amusing today that somehow the plan Romney used in deep blue Massachusetts became a "Republican plan." And that was because Romney had to deal with a super-majority Dem state legislature. If you look at the Heritage plan, which is where I know this is going, we can see that the only real thing the two plans had in common is a mandate, which isn't even an American idea, as other countries have mandates. Nevermind Republicans never campaigned on either Romneycare or the actual Heritage plan. Conservatives lambasted the GOP for nominating the one person who couldn't run against Obamacare. This "Obamacare is a Republican plan" is fun meme, but it's fundamentally false. I disagree. The essence of the plan goes back to Nixon. In February 1974, Republican President Richard Nixon proposed, in essence, today’s Affordable Care Act. Under Nixon’s plan all but the smallest employers would provide insurance to their workers or pay a penalty, an expanded Medicaid-type program would insure the poor, and subsidies would be provided to low-income individuals and small employers. Sound familiar?
Private insurers were delighted with the Nixon plan but Democrats preferred a system based on Social Security and Medicare The Republican plan was built around private insurers and the Democratic vision built around SS and Medicare. There’s a deep irony to all this. Had Democrats stuck to the original Democratic vision and built comprehensive health insurance on Social Security and Medicare, it would have been cheaper, simpler, and more widely accepted by the public. And Republicans would be hollering anyway. www.csmonitor.com Notice how he skips 30 years? The mandate, when proposed on the right, was highly divisive, with most of the support thinking of it as the best way to deal with the free-rider problem. And there's a whole lot more to all these plans. Most Republican plans lead to a net decrease in government involvement in healthcare and health insurance. The Democrat plans do the opposite. It's really that simple. I just didn't include the commentary on the intervening years. In 1989, Stuart M. Butler of the conservative Heritage Foundation came up with a plan that would “mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance.”
Insurance companies loved Butler’s plan so much it found its way into several bills introduced by Republican lawmakers in 1993. Among the supporters were senators Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Charles Grassley, R-Iowa (who now oppose the mandate under the Affordable Care Act). Newt Gingrich, who became Speaker of the House in 1995, was also a big proponent. I can give you that it's support among Republicans wasn't/isn't ubiquitous though. I was already obliquely referring to that earlier. Here's a right-leaning healthcare polciy guy discussing mostly the mandate, https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2012/02/07/the-tortuous-conservative-history-of-the-individual-mandate/#1aa185a955fe
I'm not sure what you're suggesting that article does to strengthen your argument or weaken mine?
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On September 13 2019 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 10:19 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 10:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 10:11 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 10:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:56 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:35 Introvert wrote:
This debate so far has been so much better, they are actually going at it. I'd pay so much for someone up there to bring up or use the phrase "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor," the big lie of Obamacare that lead to Democratic electoral route. Amazing that so soon after the ACA they pretend nothing has really changed.
Still great nonetheless. Bernie did, said it's on Joe Biden to explain it. The ACA was basically a Nixon plan rehashed by Romney at the state level, then accepted as a compromise between the center and right wings of the Democratic party. It's quite impressive Republicans managed to make defending a Republican plan/policy into a Democrat party staple. are you sure he used that phrase, much less in the way I'm describing? It's amusing today that somehow the plan Romney used in deep blue Massachusetts became a "Republican plan." And that was because Romney had to deal with a super-majority Dem state legislature. If you look at the Heritage plan, which is where I know this is going, we can see that the only real thing the two plans had in common is a mandate, which isn't even an American idea, as other countries have mandates. Nevermind Republicans never campaigned on either Romneycare or the actual Heritage plan. Conservatives lambasted the GOP for nominating the one person who couldn't run against Obamacare. This "Obamacare is a Republican plan" is fun meme, but it's fundamentally false. I disagree. The essence of the plan goes back to Nixon. In February 1974, Republican President Richard Nixon proposed, in essence, today’s Affordable Care Act. Under Nixon’s plan all but the smallest employers would provide insurance to their workers or pay a penalty, an expanded Medicaid-type program would insure the poor, and subsidies would be provided to low-income individuals and small employers. Sound familiar?
Private insurers were delighted with the Nixon plan but Democrats preferred a system based on Social Security and Medicare The Republican plan was built around private insurers and the Democratic vision built around SS and Medicare. There’s a deep irony to all this. Had Democrats stuck to the original Democratic vision and built comprehensive health insurance on Social Security and Medicare, it would have been cheaper, simpler, and more widely accepted by the public. And Republicans would be hollering anyway. www.csmonitor.com Notice how he skips 30 years? The mandate, when proposed on the right, was highly divisive, with most of the support thinking of it as the best way to deal with the free-rider problem. And there's a whole lot more to all these plans. Most Republican plans lead to a net decrease in government involvement in healthcare and health insurance. The Democrat plans do the opposite. It's really that simple. I just didn't include the commentary on the intervening years. In 1989, Stuart M. Butler of the conservative Heritage Foundation came up with a plan that would “mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance.”
Insurance companies loved Butler’s plan so much it found its way into several bills introduced by Republican lawmakers in 1993. Among the supporters were senators Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Charles Grassley, R-Iowa (who now oppose the mandate under the Affordable Care Act). Newt Gingrich, who became Speaker of the House in 1995, was also a big proponent. I can give you that it's support among Republicans wasn't/isn't ubiquitous though. I was already obliquely referring to that earlier. Here's a right-leaning healthcare polciy guy discussing mostly the mandate, https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2012/02/07/the-tortuous-conservative-history-of-the-individual-mandate/#1aa185a955fe I'm not sure what you're suggesting that article does to strengthen your argument or weaken mine?
It's re-enforcing my point that "Obamacare is a Republican plan" is something people should stop saying. In fact it seems possible to say that there is no Republican healthcare plan. Meanwhile in this debate I am at least trying to watch, the difference is between "buy-in to Medicare" or "be forced into Medicare."
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On September 13 2019 10:34 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 10:30 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 10:19 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 10:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 10:11 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 10:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:56 Introvert wrote:On September 13 2019 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 13 2019 09:35 Introvert wrote:
This debate so far has been so much better, they are actually going at it. I'd pay so much for someone up there to bring up or use the phrase "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor," the big lie of Obamacare that lead to Democratic electoral route. Amazing that so soon after the ACA they pretend nothing has really changed.
Still great nonetheless. Bernie did, said it's on Joe Biden to explain it. The ACA was basically a Nixon plan rehashed by Romney at the state level, then accepted as a compromise between the center and right wings of the Democratic party. It's quite impressive Republicans managed to make defending a Republican plan/policy into a Democrat party staple. are you sure he used that phrase, much less in the way I'm describing? It's amusing today that somehow the plan Romney used in deep blue Massachusetts became a "Republican plan." And that was because Romney had to deal with a super-majority Dem state legislature. If you look at the Heritage plan, which is where I know this is going, we can see that the only real thing the two plans had in common is a mandate, which isn't even an American idea, as other countries have mandates. Nevermind Republicans never campaigned on either Romneycare or the actual Heritage plan. Conservatives lambasted the GOP for nominating the one person who couldn't run against Obamacare. This "Obamacare is a Republican plan" is fun meme, but it's fundamentally false. I disagree. The essence of the plan goes back to Nixon. In February 1974, Republican President Richard Nixon proposed, in essence, today’s Affordable Care Act. Under Nixon’s plan all but the smallest employers would provide insurance to their workers or pay a penalty, an expanded Medicaid-type program would insure the poor, and subsidies would be provided to low-income individuals and small employers. Sound familiar?
Private insurers were delighted with the Nixon plan but Democrats preferred a system based on Social Security and Medicare The Republican plan was built around private insurers and the Democratic vision built around SS and Medicare. There’s a deep irony to all this. Had Democrats stuck to the original Democratic vision and built comprehensive health insurance on Social Security and Medicare, it would have been cheaper, simpler, and more widely accepted by the public. And Republicans would be hollering anyway. www.csmonitor.com Notice how he skips 30 years? The mandate, when proposed on the right, was highly divisive, with most of the support thinking of it as the best way to deal with the free-rider problem. And there's a whole lot more to all these plans. Most Republican plans lead to a net decrease in government involvement in healthcare and health insurance. The Democrat plans do the opposite. It's really that simple. I just didn't include the commentary on the intervening years. In 1989, Stuart M. Butler of the conservative Heritage Foundation came up with a plan that would “mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance.”
Insurance companies loved Butler’s plan so much it found its way into several bills introduced by Republican lawmakers in 1993. Among the supporters were senators Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Charles Grassley, R-Iowa (who now oppose the mandate under the Affordable Care Act). Newt Gingrich, who became Speaker of the House in 1995, was also a big proponent. I can give you that it's support among Republicans wasn't/isn't ubiquitous though. I was already obliquely referring to that earlier. Here's a right-leaning healthcare polciy guy discussing mostly the mandate, https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2012/02/07/the-tortuous-conservative-history-of-the-individual-mandate/#1aa185a955fe I'm not sure what you're suggesting that article does to strengthen your argument or weaken mine? It's re-enforcing my point that "Obamacare is a Republican plan" is something people should stop saying. In fact it seems possible to say that there is no Republican healthcare plan. Meanwhile in this debate I am at least trying to watch, the difference is between "buy-in to Medicare" or "be forced into Medicare."
I'd agree that Republicans went from an ACA like plan to no plan. I'm not going to stop pointing out that the ACA was a rehash of a Republican plan, because it is.
As to the debate Bernie's plan is the only one worth consideration imo.
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EPT
