Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On May 07 2018 03:01 TheDwf wrote: Dunno if it's part of your national news, but Trump using the Bataclan 13/11 attacks as an example of "why people should have weapons" pretty much pissed the whole France, and various parties are pressuring our president to demand official excuses from Trump.
I have read about it on BBC and WaPo. I think its much bigger news in Europe than on the other side of Atlantic. I doubt Americans care much about what we Euorpoors think.
Plenty of Americans care what Europeans think, only at this point, those who do can mostly only hang their heads in shame as our current government destroys what goodwill remains throughout the international community.
See how much better this piece is than the short observer article? (maybe more is coming from them):
In June, 2017, Ann Norris, a former State Department official, received an e-mail containing an unusual proposal. Norris is married to Ben Rhodes, a former foreign-policy adviser to President Barack Obama and a prominent advocate of the Iran nuclear deal. In the e-mail, a woman who introduced herself as Eva Novak and claimed to work for a London-based film company called Shell Productions asked Norris to consult on a movie that she described as “ ‘All the President’s Men’ meets ‘The West Wing’ ”: it would follow the personal lives of “government officials in the positions that determine war and Peace” during times of geopolitical crisis, including “nuclear negotiations with a hostile nation.” Recalling the exchange, Ann Norris said that she found Eva Novak’s request “bizarre,” and that she “never responded.” The e-mail appears to be part of an undercover campaign by an Israeli private-intelligence firm to discredit Obama officials who had been leading proponents of the 2015 Iran nuclear deal. The campaign was first reported, on Saturday, by the British newspaper the Observer. However, sources familiar with the effort and pages of documents obtained by The New Yorker reveal that there is more to understand. Two of those sources told me on Sunday that the operation was carried out by Black Cube—a firm that was also employed by Harvey Weinstein and that offers its clients access to operatives from “Israel’s élite military and governmental intelligence units,” including the Mossad.
....
The Observer reported that aides of President Trump had hired Black Cube to run the operation in order to undermine the Iran deal, allegations that Black Cube denies. “The idea was that people acting for Trump would discredit those who were pivotal in selling the deal, making it easier to pull out of it,” a source told the Observer. One of the sources familiar with the effort told me that it was, in fact, part of Black Cube’s work for a private-sector client pursuing commercial interests related to sanctions on Iran. (A Trump Administration spokesperson declined to comment to the Observer on the allegations.)
This is only the first few paragraphs. I guess for context I should this is about the Israeli firm that used to try and get dirt on Obama admin people involved in the Iran deal.
We were watching with some workmates at the studio the other day trying to parse through footage of the Giuliani's misadventure, and a few brought up the "irrespective test" defense is actually a strong one for Trump, although Giuliani expressed it in the most inarticulate and comically incompetent manner.
I am becoming increasing uncomfortable with Israel’s tactics in opposing the Iran deal. It is hard to call a nation allies when they are actively seeking to undermine government officials.
Edit: You need to be more specific. Defense to what specific charge?
On May 08 2018 00:14 Plansix wrote: I am becoming increasing uncomfortable with Israel’s tactics in opposing the Iran deal. It is hard to call a nation allies when they are actively seeking to undermine government officials.
would you classify that (undermining gov't officials) as more or less problematic than actively spying on you? (referencing the various espionage operations israel has done against the US)
Childish Gambino (Donald Glover) just made an amazing music video that is extremely politically charged, from arguing that we treat guns with more dignity than human lives, to the fact that society and churches focus more on pop culture and money that they do about topics of importance, substance, and morality.
Here's his video:
Here's a good analysis of it:
"Over the weekend, Donald Glover, aka Childish Gambino, took the internet by storm with the release of his new single “This is America.” First previewing the track on SNL, the rapper then premiered the Hiro Murai-directed music video which includes several references to significant events within past and recent history.
Shot in a fluid format, the music video balances well-choreographed moments amid scenes of brutal violence, including the use of guns, physical harm, and even suicide. Both the lyrics and visuals take a hard-hitting stance on violence and race relations within the U.S., while ultimately speaking to how they’re downplayed, romanticized, or even ignored.
Notably, “This is America” marks the artist’s first release since his 2016 album Awaken My Love, which featured the lead single “Redbone.” In light of the new track and its accompanying four-minute visual, we’ve compiled a list of ideas and concepts you may have missed.
First, re-watch the video below.
“This Is America” graphically depicts gun violence, with some claiming the video, in certain scenes, is trying to convey how firearms are treated with more respect than human lives. In the opening scenes, Glover shoots an unnamed person, execution style. In the following frame, the gun is carried off in a special cloth by a well-dressed man while the lifeless body is dragged away. Each time someone is shot, this same process takes place.
Similarly, the video points out the consistent presence of firearms when it comes to acts of terror. In addition to the aforementioned execution scene, the above shot, where members of a choir are singing, could be pointing to the 2015 Charleston Church Massacre. Here, the video potentially stresses that death by gun violence is not a one-off occurrence, more so when it comes to black Americans.
Notably before their death, the choir repeatedly sings, “Grandma told me/Get your money black man,” which has been attributed to religion’s encouragement of material obsession.
During the Jim Crow era – which legally enforced racial segregation in the South – minstrel shows and blackface were not uncommon. Here, some have drawn parallels between Gambino’s movements and that of an old Jim Crow poster.
Following suit, the video includes references to several popular dances both in the U.S. and across Africa. The South African Gwara Gwara and Blocboy JB’s dance flag are included while people riot in the background. This could be read as how people happily adopt black culture but turn a blind eye to the violence that affects black people.
In the Bible, Revelations 6:8 (KJV) reads: “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and the name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.” According to the scripture, the appearance of four horsemen signifies the oncoming apocalypse – with death represented by the final, white one. Unbeknownst to Gambino and his dancers, a white horse and a cop car appear in the corner of the frame.
Last but not least, Gambino also makes a reference to Jordan Peele’s Get Out. The film – which also featured Gambino’s song “Redbone” – notably introduced the theory of the “sunken place,” in which marginalized people are aware of the violence that surrounds them, yet are powerless to stop it.
Thanks to movies (like Jordan Peele's "Get Out") and music videos like this one, statements about our culture that need to be made are being made to millions of viewers in America. Hopefully, these issues are portrayed continuously until they're properly addressed. We need to be inundated with these important messages until the majority of people can no longer turn a blind eye.
On May 08 2018 00:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Childish Gambino (Donald Glover) just made an amazing music video that is extremely politically charged, from arguing that we treat guns with more dignity than human lives, to the fact that society and churches focus more on pop culture and money that they do about topics of importance, substance, and morality.
"Over the weekend, Donald Glover, aka Childish Gambino, took the internet by storm with the release of his new single “This is America.” First previewing the track on SNL, the rapper then premiered the Hiro Murai-directed music video which includes several references to significant events within past and recent history.
Shot in a fluid format, the music video balances well-choreographed moments amid scenes of brutal violence, including the use of guns, physical harm, and even suicide. Both the lyrics and visuals take a hard-hitting stance on violence and race relations within the U.S., while ultimately speaking to how they’re downplayed, romanticized, or even ignored.
Notably, “This is America” marks the artist’s first release since his 2016 album Awaken My Love, which featured the lead single “Redbone.” In light of the new track and its accompanying four-minute visual, we’ve compiled a list of ideas and concepts you may have missed.
First, re-watch the video below.
“This Is America” graphically depicts gun violence, with some claiming the video, in certain scenes, is trying to convey how firearms are treated with more respect than human lives. In the opening scenes, Glover shoots an unnamed person, execution style. In the following frame, the gun is carried off in a special cloth by a well-dressed man while the lifeless body is dragged away. Each time someone is shot, this same process takes place.
Similarly, the video points out the consistent presence of firearms when it comes to acts of terror. In addition to the aforementioned execution scene, the above shot, where members of a choir are singing, could be pointing to the 2015 Charleston Church Massacre. Here, the video potentially stresses that death by gun violence is not a one-off occurrence, more so when it comes to black Americans.
Notably before their death, the choir repeatedly sings, “Grandma told me/Get your money black man,” which has been attributed to religion’s encouragement of material obsession.
During the Jim Crow era – which legally enforced racial segregation in the South – minstrel shows and blackface were not uncommon. Here, some have drawn parallels between Gambino’s movements and that of an old Jim Crow poster.
Following suit, the video includes references to several popular dances both in the U.S. and across Africa. The South African Gwara Gwara and Blocboy JB’s dance flag are included while people riot in the background. This could be read as how people happily adopt black culture but turn a blind eye to the violence that affects black people.
In the Bible, Revelations 6:8 (KJV) reads: “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and the name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.” According to the scripture, the appearance of four horsemen signifies the oncoming apocalypse – with death represented by the final, white one. Unbeknownst to Gambino and his dancers, a white horse and a cop car appear in the corner of the frame.
Last but not least, Gambino also makes a reference to Jordan Peele’s Get Out. The film – which also featured Gambino’s song “Redbone” – notably introduced the theory of the “sunken place,” in which marginalized people are aware of the violence that surrounds them, yet are powerless to stop it.
Thanks to movies (like Jordan Peele's "Get Out") and music videos like this one, statements about our culture that need to be made are being made to millions of viewers in America. Hopefully, these issues are portrayed continuously until they're properly addressed. We need to be inundated with these important messages until the majority of people can no longer turn a blind eye.
It's a really good music video and song. However, far as my personal tastes goes it's not my cup of tea (I love old school donglover and haven't been a fan of his more recent stuff). That is beyond the fact that it's somewhat an uncomfortable video to watch... which is obviously intentional.
One thing I really liked was the kids in the background walking around looking at their phones.
In June, 2017, Ann Norris, a former State Department official, received an e-mail containing an unusual proposal. Norris is married to Ben Rhodes, a former foreign-policy adviser to President Barack Obama and a prominent advocate of the Iran nuclear deal. In the e-mail, a woman who introduced herself as Eva Novak and claimed to work for a London-based film company called Shell Productions asked Norris to consult on a movie that she described as “ ‘All the President’s Men’ meets ‘The West Wing’ ”: it would follow the personal lives of “government officials in the positions that determine war and Peace” during times of geopolitical crisis, including “nuclear negotiations with a hostile nation.” Recalling the exchange, Ann Norris said that she found Eva Novak’s request “bizarre,” and that she “never responded.” The e-mail appears to be part of an undercover campaign by an Israeli private-intelligence firm to discredit Obama officials who had been leading proponents of the 2015 Iran nuclear deal. The campaign was first reported, on Saturday, by the British newspaper the Observer. However, sources familiar with the effort and pages of documents obtained by The New Yorker reveal that there is more to understand. Two of those sources told me on Sunday that the operation was carried out by Black Cube—a firm that was also employed by Harvey Weinstein and that offers its clients access to operatives from “Israel’s élite military and governmental intelligence units,” including the Mossad.
....
The Observer reported that aides of President Trump had hired Black Cube to run the operation in order to undermine the Iran deal, allegations that Black Cube denies. “The idea was that people acting for Trump would discredit those who were pivotal in selling the deal, making it easier to pull out of it,” a source told the Observer. One of the sources familiar with the effort told me that it was, in fact, part of Black Cube’s work for a private-sector client pursuing commercial interests related to sanctions on Iran. (A Trump Administration spokesperson declined to comment to the Observer on the allegations.)
This is only the first few paragraphs. I guess for context I should this is about the Israeli firm that used to try and get dirt on Obama admin people involved in the Iran deal.
It's more detailed, but it says much the same: an Israeli PI firm was hired to dig into two former Obama administration members' lives to find dirt, in order to discredit the Iran deal. They were allegedly hired by Trump or the Trump administration. Yet you were up in arms at the Observer article being a smear piece, but this is a "much better article". What changed?
On May 08 2018 00:14 Plansix wrote: I am becoming increasing uncomfortable with Israel’s tactics in opposing the Iran deal. It is hard to call a nation allies when they are actively seeking to undermine government officials.
would you classify that (undermining gov't officials) as more or less problematic than actively spying on you? (referencing the various espionage operations israel has done against the US)
Governments spying on each other is a reality of sovereign nations. Not doing so would be a disservice the citizens of that nation. So we all do it to some degree or another. But it takes on a whole new tenor when a nation is spying with the intent of influencing the actions of the government. That isn’t collecting information out of due diligence. Our governments can’t have other nations messing around in each other’s elections and policies through these clandestine means. Especially among “allies”. There is a real risk of it escalating over time.
On May 08 2018 00:14 Plansix wrote: I am becoming increasing uncomfortable with Israel’s tactics in opposing the Iran deal. It is hard to call a nation allies when they are actively seeking to undermine government officials.
would you classify that (undermining gov't officials) as more or less problematic than actively spying on you? (referencing the various espionage operations israel has done against the US)
Governments spying on each other is a reality of sovereign nations. Not doing so would be a disservice the citizens of that nation. So we all do it to some degree or another. But it takes on a whole new tenor when a nation is spying with the intent of influencing the actions of the government. That isn’t collecting information out of due diligence. Our governments can’t have other nations messing around in each other’s elections and policies through these clandestine means. Especially among “allies”. There is a real risk of it escalating over time.
i'm pretty sure some of the stuff israel did went past "collecting information out of due diligence"; but that's a minor quibble.
where to draw the line is an interesting question: espionage is often used to inform diplomatic negotiations after all, to determine which arguments will best sway them to your side.
On May 08 2018 00:07 Introvert wrote: See how much better this piece is than the short observer article? (maybe more is coming from them):
In June, 2017, Ann Norris, a former State Department official, received an e-mail containing an unusual proposal. Norris is married to Ben Rhodes, a former foreign-policy adviser to President Barack Obama and a prominent advocate of the Iran nuclear deal. In the e-mail, a woman who introduced herself as Eva Novak and claimed to work for a London-based film company called Shell Productions asked Norris to consult on a movie that she described as “ ‘All the President’s Men’ meets ‘The West Wing’ ”: it would follow the personal lives of “government officials in the positions that determine war and Peace” during times of geopolitical crisis, including “nuclear negotiations with a hostile nation.” Recalling the exchange, Ann Norris said that she found Eva Novak’s request “bizarre,” and that she “never responded.” The e-mail appears to be part of an undercover campaign by an Israeli private-intelligence firm to discredit Obama officials who had been leading proponents of the 2015 Iran nuclear deal. The campaign was first reported, on Saturday, by the British newspaper the Observer. However, sources familiar with the effort and pages of documents obtained by The New Yorker reveal that there is more to understand. Two of those sources told me on Sunday that the operation was carried out by Black Cube—a firm that was also employed by Harvey Weinstein and that offers its clients access to operatives from “Israel’s élite military and governmental intelligence units,” including the Mossad.
....
The Observer reported that aides of President Trump had hired Black Cube to run the operation in order to undermine the Iran deal, allegations that Black Cube denies. “The idea was that people acting for Trump would discredit those who were pivotal in selling the deal, making it easier to pull out of it,” a source told the Observer. One of the sources familiar with the effort told me that it was, in fact, part of Black Cube’s work for a private-sector client pursuing commercial interests related to sanctions on Iran. (A Trump Administration spokesperson declined to comment to the Observer on the allegations.)
This is only the first few paragraphs. I guess for context I should this is about the Israeli firm that used to try and get dirt on Obama admin people involved in the Iran deal.
It's more detailed, but it says much the same: an Israeli PI firm was hired to dig into two former Obama administration members' lives to find dirt, in order to discredit the Iran deal. They were allegedly hired by Trump or the Trump administration. Yet you were up in arms at the Observer article being a smear piece, but this is a "much better article". What changed?
First is the general point. To me the difference is more than having "more detail." It names people and organizations, for one. Second of all, it's agnostic on the Trump operatives part. It doesn't look like, from either article, that the documents they've seen actually disclose who hired them. At least not yet.
I just wanted to highlight it because I think taking things st face value when written the way The Observer article was is unwise.
Second, and this isn't directed at you, Im not sure where the impression came from that the Israeli government was involved.
That was my mistake. I read the article on my phone and misread that it was a firm in Israel. I am also uncomfortable with a world where foreign intelligence firms are being hiring by our goverment to investigate political opponents. Both with our goverment doing it and foreign firms accepting contracts without fear of blow back from their own goverment.
Zlefin, I was being rhetorical earlier, wasn't too clear on that. But on that childish gambino, I definitely enjoy the song even though the video was very political.
On May 08 2018 00:14 Plansix wrote: I am becoming increasing uncomfortable with Israel’s tactics in opposing the Iran deal. It is hard to call a nation allies when they are actively seeking to undermine government officials.
Edit: You need to be more specific. Defense to what specific charge?
The same firm, Black Cube, was hired by Harvey Weinstein to run interference on his accusers.
On May 08 2018 00:07 Introvert wrote: See how much better this piece is than the short observer article? (maybe more is coming from them):
In June, 2017, Ann Norris, a former State Department official, received an e-mail containing an unusual proposal. Norris is married to Ben Rhodes, a former foreign-policy adviser to President Barack Obama and a prominent advocate of the Iran nuclear deal. In the e-mail, a woman who introduced herself as Eva Novak and claimed to work for a London-based film company called Shell Productions asked Norris to consult on a movie that she described as “ ‘All the President’s Men’ meets ‘The West Wing’ ”: it would follow the personal lives of “government officials in the positions that determine war and Peace” during times of geopolitical crisis, including “nuclear negotiations with a hostile nation.” Recalling the exchange, Ann Norris said that she found Eva Novak’s request “bizarre,” and that she “never responded.” The e-mail appears to be part of an undercover campaign by an Israeli private-intelligence firm to discredit Obama officials who had been leading proponents of the 2015 Iran nuclear deal. The campaign was first reported, on Saturday, by the British newspaper the Observer. However, sources familiar with the effort and pages of documents obtained by The New Yorker reveal that there is more to understand. Two of those sources told me on Sunday that the operation was carried out by Black Cube—a firm that was also employed by Harvey Weinstein and that offers its clients access to operatives from “Israel’s élite military and governmental intelligence units,” including the Mossad.
....
The Observer reported that aides of President Trump had hired Black Cube to run the operation in order to undermine the Iran deal, allegations that Black Cube denies. “The idea was that people acting for Trump would discredit those who were pivotal in selling the deal, making it easier to pull out of it,” a source told the Observer. One of the sources familiar with the effort told me that it was, in fact, part of Black Cube’s work for a private-sector client pursuing commercial interests related to sanctions on Iran. (A Trump Administration spokesperson declined to comment to the Observer on the allegations.)
This is only the first few paragraphs. I guess for context I should this is about the Israeli firm that used to try and get dirt on Obama admin people involved in the Iran deal.
It's more detailed, but it says much the same: an Israeli PI firm was hired to dig into two former Obama administration members' lives to find dirt, in order to discredit the Iran deal. They were allegedly hired by Trump or the Trump administration. Yet you were up in arms at the Observer article being a smear piece, but this is a "much better article". What changed?
First is the general point. To me the difference is more than having "more detail." It names people and organizations, for one. Second of all, it's agnostic on the Trump operatives part. It doesn't look like, from either article, that the documents they've seen actually disclose who hired them. At least not yet.
I just wanted to highlight it because I think taking things st face value when written the way The Observer article was is unwise.
Second, and this isn't directed at you, Im not sure where the impression came from that the Israeli government was involved.
The Observer article was overall trustworthy, especially when they claim to have seen documents. Most of the reporting on this stuff has been accurate, and the media has issued corrections and fired people when mistakes were made.
On May 08 2018 00:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Childish Gambino (Donald Glover) just made an amazing music video that is extremely politically charged, from arguing that we treat guns with more dignity than human lives, to the fact that society and churches focus more on pop culture and money that they do about topics of importance, substance, and morality.
"Over the weekend, Donald Glover, aka Childish Gambino, took the internet by storm with the release of his new single “This is America.” First previewing the track on SNL, the rapper then premiered the Hiro Murai-directed music video which includes several references to significant events within past and recent history.
Shot in a fluid format, the music video balances well-choreographed moments amid scenes of brutal violence, including the use of guns, physical harm, and even suicide. Both the lyrics and visuals take a hard-hitting stance on violence and race relations within the U.S., while ultimately speaking to how they’re downplayed, romanticized, or even ignored.
Notably, “This is America” marks the artist’s first release since his 2016 album Awaken My Love, which featured the lead single “Redbone.” In light of the new track and its accompanying four-minute visual, we’ve compiled a list of ideas and concepts you may have missed.
First, re-watch the video below.
“This Is America” graphically depicts gun violence, with some claiming the video, in certain scenes, is trying to convey how firearms are treated with more respect than human lives. In the opening scenes, Glover shoots an unnamed person, execution style. In the following frame, the gun is carried off in a special cloth by a well-dressed man while the lifeless body is dragged away. Each time someone is shot, this same process takes place.
Similarly, the video points out the consistent presence of firearms when it comes to acts of terror. In addition to the aforementioned execution scene, the above shot, where members of a choir are singing, could be pointing to the 2015 Charleston Church Massacre. Here, the video potentially stresses that death by gun violence is not a one-off occurrence, more so when it comes to black Americans.
Notably before their death, the choir repeatedly sings, “Grandma told me/Get your money black man,” which has been attributed to religion’s encouragement of material obsession.
During the Jim Crow era – which legally enforced racial segregation in the South – minstrel shows and blackface were not uncommon. Here, some have drawn parallels between Gambino’s movements and that of an old Jim Crow poster.
Following suit, the video includes references to several popular dances both in the U.S. and across Africa. The South African Gwara Gwara and Blocboy JB’s dance flag are included while people riot in the background. This could be read as how people happily adopt black culture but turn a blind eye to the violence that affects black people.
In the Bible, Revelations 6:8 (KJV) reads: “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and the name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.” According to the scripture, the appearance of four horsemen signifies the oncoming apocalypse – with death represented by the final, white one. Unbeknownst to Gambino and his dancers, a white horse and a cop car appear in the corner of the frame.
Last but not least, Gambino also makes a reference to Jordan Peele’s Get Out. The film – which also featured Gambino’s song “Redbone” – notably introduced the theory of the “sunken place,” in which marginalized people are aware of the violence that surrounds them, yet are powerless to stop it.
Thanks to movies (like Jordan Peele's "Get Out") and music videos like this one, statements about our culture that need to be made are being made to millions of viewers in America. Hopefully, these issues are portrayed continuously until they're properly addressed. We need to be inundated with these important messages until the majority of people can no longer turn a blind eye.
It's mostly meh to me. There's some problems with the video as the article unintentionally highlights. It took almost all of the racial motivation and charging out of the Charleston shooting, and turned a terrorist attack committed by one of several white supremacists who have been committing these terrorist attacks into something about 'guns'. Of course that may just be a bad take from this person, but it's a popular one.
I think the best argument I've heard in favor of it's profoundness, compared it to Kubriks Clockwork Orange, and the Ludovico Technique. That the song/dance is supposed to be Beethoven and the ultraviolence, well the ultraviolence.
Where CG performed especially poorly was on the racial aspect of all this. Presuming the ultraviolence critique has anything to do with what he was actually going for. By not inverting the racial dynamics (shooting a white church choir for instance or having a white person commit the act) he basically pulled the punch. In video that's already seen as 'too much' it's one he shouldn't have pulled.
The idea in the piece I've noticed a lot of Black people taking issue with is that; lets say this video is indeed a statement on how White people ignore Black suffering but love for us to entertain them, even when that entertainment is borne out of the suffering they ignore.
CG took the approach that suggests more black bodies and violence against them is what white people have to see in order to trigger a conscious and do something. That also means that Black people have to watch it too, for what, the case isn't made by CG or others who do so (Shaun King) comes to mind.
To give an example, TI's video Warzone did a much better job imo, if by just inverting the racial dynamics of the situations that were it's contemporaries. Also the song is better imo.
It also closes with a quote that sums up the issue pretty well.
On May 08 2018 00:14 Plansix wrote: I am becoming increasing uncomfortable with Israel’s tactics in opposing the Iran deal. It is hard to call a nation allies when they are actively seeking to undermine government officials.
Edit: You need to be more specific. Defense to what specific charge?
That's what makes you 'increasingl[y] uncomfortable'? Not the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people or sponsoring genocide in Myanmar?
EPT
