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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On May 13 2019 03:15 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 01:50 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 12 2019 22:13 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:07 ThaddeusK wrote:On May 12 2019 19:31 Artisreal wrote:
The way you portrayed /I perceived your opinion via the last couple of posts of yours is rather questionable though. I am under the impression that you question giving out free period utility items because food, of which men in your words need more of than women, isn't free albeit being a super basic need.
His point is very simple, an argument that women should receive free tampons/pads because it is unequal/unfair that women have a higher cost of living than men requires showing than women actually do have a higher cost of living than men, which the need to buy tampons/pads does not prove because there are cost of living expenses other than tampons/pads. His point remains unclear. And my question is as to why the argument is about weighing x vs y, man vs woman when it should be about why people are priced out of essential services Give us the bare minimum you would price essential services. I agree that hunger, tampons, and housing should not be a factor in today's world of abundance, but it is. What would be your absolute minimum threshold for those? I really do not want to talk about individual items and prices because that's so far away from what my point is. This whole thing started with period utiliites being ridiculously overpriced. Which is abundantly clear by the price talked about a couple of pages ago and them being availabe for 12% of that price (14$ to 1.5€) in a similarly developed country. Just sarch for period poverty and be be aghast that this actually is a problem. And even a couple of quid make a difference. Not to you or to me, but to many American and UK residents. Inge, in classical meninism fashion, diverts from the topic by saying various things akin to: "but men have it worse, cause they have to pay more for food" Not explicitly saying that period utilities shouldn't be cheaper, but through diverting the discussion to the apparently more important topic of why men are worse off than women, entirely disregards the former discussion and by that issue raised. His supposed point, the question about affordability of good and healthy food, does go hand in hand with the general theme of period poverty - which is why it's not the smartest thing to value against, as they have a similar underlying issue. Disproportionate spread of wealth. It is also very in line with current politics that when we talk about women's issues, the topic is diverted to an entirely different topic or someone shoults: BUT WE SHOULD INCLUDE MEN AS WELL. Which is entirely correct, though this cannot prevent us from working on and solving a know and researched issue, just because it "only" affects women. It's ridiculous. You weigh and judge a problem that doesn't even concern you. Good on you. Not. According to the logic inge displayed, people who forget their coats shouldn't get treatment for the cold they caught as others didn't forget their coat and are well. Great society, would want to live in 5/7 times. The questions posed are all valid and I think have a merit all on their own, but not as a counterquestion to people discussion women's issues in an attempt to redirect the focus of the topic at hand to something different. It is tedious, disingenuous and distracts from actually tackling real world problems. Why is it so important to bring these questions up right the moment we're talking about women? You would not have brought them up by yourself because they're dear to you, you bring them up to make posters here look like they're not caring about men as much as women or not thinking about the big picture. Though entirely disingenuous and seemingy not interested in any solution to the problem at hand. Well no, you are being rather unfair. Money is fungible. You haven't demonstrated why tampons, in particular, should be free to everyone. I already said tampons should be accessible to the poor, like every other basic human need, but you continue to conflate me saying "free tampons for everyone doesn't really make much sense" with me saying "fuck anyone who can't pay for things they need." But at least you are virtue signalling as hard as you possibly can. Asking "why are you choosing X over Y" is not whataboutism when the two are paid for with fungible tax dollars. You have to be able to justify your choice in the political arena. The #1 most annoying thing on this forum is people throwing out trendy words like whataboutism instead of considering the logical/rhetorical structure of the argument and actually thinking for themselves. Why does America have to chose between X over Y when the rest of the Western world can afford both X and Y (aswell as Z) ?
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On May 13 2019 03:21 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 03:15 IgnE wrote:On May 13 2019 01:50 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 12 2019 22:13 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:07 ThaddeusK wrote:On May 12 2019 19:31 Artisreal wrote:
The way you portrayed /I perceived your opinion via the last couple of posts of yours is rather questionable though. I am under the impression that you question giving out free period utility items because food, of which men in your words need more of than women, isn't free albeit being a super basic need.
His point is very simple, an argument that women should receive free tampons/pads because it is unequal/unfair that women have a higher cost of living than men requires showing than women actually do have a higher cost of living than men, which the need to buy tampons/pads does not prove because there are cost of living expenses other than tampons/pads. His point remains unclear. And my question is as to why the argument is about weighing x vs y, man vs woman when it should be about why people are priced out of essential services Give us the bare minimum you would price essential services. I agree that hunger, tampons, and housing should not be a factor in today's world of abundance, but it is. What would be your absolute minimum threshold for those? I really do not want to talk about individual items and prices because that's so far away from what my point is. This whole thing started with period utiliites being ridiculously overpriced. Which is abundantly clear by the price talked about a couple of pages ago and them being availabe for 12% of that price (14$ to 1.5€) in a similarly developed country. Just sarch for period poverty and be be aghast that this actually is a problem. And even a couple of quid make a difference. Not to you or to me, but to many American and UK residents. Inge, in classical meninism fashion, diverts from the topic by saying various things akin to: "but men have it worse, cause they have to pay more for food" Not explicitly saying that period utilities shouldn't be cheaper, but through diverting the discussion to the apparently more important topic of why men are worse off than women, entirely disregards the former discussion and by that issue raised. His supposed point, the question about affordability of good and healthy food, does go hand in hand with the general theme of period poverty - which is why it's not the smartest thing to value against, as they have a similar underlying issue. Disproportionate spread of wealth. It is also very in line with current politics that when we talk about women's issues, the topic is diverted to an entirely different topic or someone shoults: BUT WE SHOULD INCLUDE MEN AS WELL. Which is entirely correct, though this cannot prevent us from working on and solving a know and researched issue, just because it "only" affects women. It's ridiculous. You weigh and judge a problem that doesn't even concern you. Good on you. Not. According to the logic inge displayed, people who forget their coats shouldn't get treatment for the cold they caught as others didn't forget their coat and are well. Great society, would want to live in 5/7 times. The questions posed are all valid and I think have a merit all on their own, but not as a counterquestion to people discussion women's issues in an attempt to redirect the focus of the topic at hand to something different. It is tedious, disingenuous and distracts from actually tackling real world problems. Why is it so important to bring these questions up right the moment we're talking about women? You would not have brought them up by yourself because they're dear to you, you bring them up to make posters here look like they're not caring about men as much as women or not thinking about the big picture. Though entirely disingenuous and seemingy not interested in any solution to the problem at hand. Well no, you are being rather unfair. Money is fungible. You haven't demonstrated why tampons, in particular, should be free to everyone. I already said tampons should be accessible to the poor, like every other basic human need, but you continue to conflate me saying "free tampons for everyone doesn't really make much sense" with me saying "fuck anyone who can't pay for things they need." But at least you are virtue signalling as hard as you possibly can. Asking "why are you choosing X over Y" is not whataboutism when the two are paid for with fungible tax dollars. You have to be able to justify your choice in the political arena. The #1 most annoying thing on this forum is people throwing out trendy words like whataboutism instead of considering the logical/rhetorical structure of the argument and actually thinking for themselves. Why does America have to chose between X over Y when the rest of the Western world can afford both X and Y (aswell as Z) ?
No western country has provided free tampons to everyone who bleeds. Why is that?
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On May 13 2019 03:26 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 03:21 Gorsameth wrote:On May 13 2019 03:15 IgnE wrote:On May 13 2019 01:50 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 12 2019 22:13 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:07 ThaddeusK wrote:On May 12 2019 19:31 Artisreal wrote:
The way you portrayed /I perceived your opinion via the last couple of posts of yours is rather questionable though. I am under the impression that you question giving out free period utility items because food, of which men in your words need more of than women, isn't free albeit being a super basic need.
His point is very simple, an argument that women should receive free tampons/pads because it is unequal/unfair that women have a higher cost of living than men requires showing than women actually do have a higher cost of living than men, which the need to buy tampons/pads does not prove because there are cost of living expenses other than tampons/pads. His point remains unclear. And my question is as to why the argument is about weighing x vs y, man vs woman when it should be about why people are priced out of essential services Give us the bare minimum you would price essential services. I agree that hunger, tampons, and housing should not be a factor in today's world of abundance, but it is. What would be your absolute minimum threshold for those? I really do not want to talk about individual items and prices because that's so far away from what my point is. This whole thing started with period utiliites being ridiculously overpriced. Which is abundantly clear by the price talked about a couple of pages ago and them being availabe for 12% of that price (14$ to 1.5€) in a similarly developed country. Just sarch for period poverty and be be aghast that this actually is a problem. And even a couple of quid make a difference. Not to you or to me, but to many American and UK residents. Inge, in classical meninism fashion, diverts from the topic by saying various things akin to: "but men have it worse, cause they have to pay more for food" Not explicitly saying that period utilities shouldn't be cheaper, but through diverting the discussion to the apparently more important topic of why men are worse off than women, entirely disregards the former discussion and by that issue raised. His supposed point, the question about affordability of good and healthy food, does go hand in hand with the general theme of period poverty - which is why it's not the smartest thing to value against, as they have a similar underlying issue. Disproportionate spread of wealth. It is also very in line with current politics that when we talk about women's issues, the topic is diverted to an entirely different topic or someone shoults: BUT WE SHOULD INCLUDE MEN AS WELL. Which is entirely correct, though this cannot prevent us from working on and solving a know and researched issue, just because it "only" affects women. It's ridiculous. You weigh and judge a problem that doesn't even concern you. Good on you. Not. According to the logic inge displayed, people who forget their coats shouldn't get treatment for the cold they caught as others didn't forget their coat and are well. Great society, would want to live in 5/7 times. The questions posed are all valid and I think have a merit all on their own, but not as a counterquestion to people discussion women's issues in an attempt to redirect the focus of the topic at hand to something different. It is tedious, disingenuous and distracts from actually tackling real world problems. Why is it so important to bring these questions up right the moment we're talking about women? You would not have brought them up by yourself because they're dear to you, you bring them up to make posters here look like they're not caring about men as much as women or not thinking about the big picture. Though entirely disingenuous and seemingy not interested in any solution to the problem at hand. Well no, you are being rather unfair. Money is fungible. You haven't demonstrated why tampons, in particular, should be free to everyone. I already said tampons should be accessible to the poor, like every other basic human need, but you continue to conflate me saying "free tampons for everyone doesn't really make much sense" with me saying "fuck anyone who can't pay for things they need." But at least you are virtue signalling as hard as you possibly can. Asking "why are you choosing X over Y" is not whataboutism when the two are paid for with fungible tax dollars. You have to be able to justify your choice in the political arena. The #1 most annoying thing on this forum is people throwing out trendy words like whataboutism instead of considering the logical/rhetorical structure of the argument and actually thinking for themselves. Why does America have to chose between X over Y when the rest of the Western world can afford both X and Y (aswell as Z) ? No western country has provided free tampons to everyone who bleeds. Why is that? Because they are already cheap enough that someone living off social security can buy them. See the earlier example provided where they are 12% of the price.
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On May 13 2019 03:15 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 01:50 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 12 2019 22:13 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:07 ThaddeusK wrote:On May 12 2019 19:31 Artisreal wrote:
The way you portrayed /I perceived your opinion via the last couple of posts of yours is rather questionable though. I am under the impression that you question giving out free period utility items because food, of which men in your words need more of than women, isn't free albeit being a super basic need.
His point is very simple, an argument that women should receive free tampons/pads because it is unequal/unfair that women have a higher cost of living than men requires showing than women actually do have a higher cost of living than men, which the need to buy tampons/pads does not prove because there are cost of living expenses other than tampons/pads. His point remains unclear. And my question is as to why the argument is about weighing x vs y, man vs woman when it should be about why people are priced out of essential services Give us the bare minimum you would price essential services. I agree that hunger, tampons, and housing should not be a factor in today's world of abundance, but it is. What would be your absolute minimum threshold for those? I really do not want to talk about individual items and prices because that's so far away from what my point is. This whole thing started with period utiliites being ridiculously overpriced. Which is abundantly clear by the price talked about a couple of pages ago and them being availabe for 12% of that price (14$ to 1.5€) in a similarly developed country. Just sarch for period poverty and be be aghast that this actually is a problem. And even a couple of quid make a difference. Not to you or to me, but to many American and UK residents. Inge, in classical meninism fashion, diverts from the topic by saying various things akin to: "but men have it worse, cause they have to pay more for food" Not explicitly saying that period utilities shouldn't be cheaper, but through diverting the discussion to the apparently more important topic of why men are worse off than women, entirely disregards the former discussion and by that issue raised. His supposed point, the question about affordability of good and healthy food, does go hand in hand with the general theme of period poverty - which is why it's not the smartest thing to value against, as they have a similar underlying issue. Disproportionate spread of wealth. It is also very in line with current politics that when we talk about women's issues, the topic is diverted to an entirely different topic or someone shoults: BUT WE SHOULD INCLUDE MEN AS WELL. Which is entirely correct, though this cannot prevent us from working on and solving a know and researched issue, just because it "only" affects women. It's ridiculous. You weigh and judge a problem that doesn't even concern you. Good on you. Not. According to the logic inge displayed, people who forget their coats shouldn't get treatment for the cold they caught as others didn't forget their coat and are well. Great society, would want to live in 5/7 times. The questions posed are all valid and I think have a merit all on their own, but not as a counterquestion to people discussion women's issues in an attempt to redirect the focus of the topic at hand to something different. It is tedious, disingenuous and distracts from actually tackling real world problems. Why is it so important to bring these questions up right the moment we're talking about women? You would not have brought them up by yourself because they're dear to you, you bring them up to make posters here look like they're not caring about men as much as women or not thinking about the big picture. Though entirely disingenuous and seemingy not interested in any solution to the problem at hand. Well no, you are being rather unfair. Money is fungible. You haven't demonstrated why tampons, in particular, should be free to everyone. I already said tampons should be accessible to the poor, like every other basic human need, but you continue to conflate me saying "free tampons for everyone doesn't really make much sense" with me saying "fuck anyone who can't pay for things they need." But at least you are virtue signalling as hard as you possibly can. Asking "why are you choosing X over Y" is not whataboutism when the two are paid for with fungible tax dollars. You have to be able to justify your choice in the political arena. The #1 most annoying thing on this forum is people throwing out trendy words like whataboutism instead of considering the logical/rhetorical structure of the argument and actually thinking for themselves. Like you realize that you seem to be taking the position that middle class and rich women should be getting a tampon subsidy over more redistribution to people with less money? No one taking your line of argument has explained why this should be. "It's a basic human right" doesn't cut it because that argument can be applied to a ton of shit and yet those things aren't being made free. Why would you choose to distribute societal resources based on identity rather than need?
Uhm, you're missing my entire point.
It's not in my intention to provide free sanitary products (it's more than tampons but that's just by the by) and never was.
So please leave that aside and adress why it's important to divert from the issue of period poverty discussed to men being disadvantaged by having to buy more food for their caloric needs?
And food poverty not being discussed in conjunction with the aforementioned is entirely up to your framing of the additional question.
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On May 13 2019 03:33 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 03:15 IgnE wrote:On May 13 2019 01:50 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 12 2019 22:13 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:07 ThaddeusK wrote:On May 12 2019 19:31 Artisreal wrote:
The way you portrayed /I perceived your opinion via the last couple of posts of yours is rather questionable though. I am under the impression that you question giving out free period utility items because food, of which men in your words need more of than women, isn't free albeit being a super basic need.
His point is very simple, an argument that women should receive free tampons/pads because it is unequal/unfair that women have a higher cost of living than men requires showing than women actually do have a higher cost of living than men, which the need to buy tampons/pads does not prove because there are cost of living expenses other than tampons/pads. His point remains unclear. And my question is as to why the argument is about weighing x vs y, man vs woman when it should be about why people are priced out of essential services Give us the bare minimum you would price essential services. I agree that hunger, tampons, and housing should not be a factor in today's world of abundance, but it is. What would be your absolute minimum threshold for those? I really do not want to talk about individual items and prices because that's so far away from what my point is. This whole thing started with period utiliites being ridiculously overpriced. Which is abundantly clear by the price talked about a couple of pages ago and them being availabe for 12% of that price (14$ to 1.5€) in a similarly developed country. Just sarch for period poverty and be be aghast that this actually is a problem. And even a couple of quid make a difference. Not to you or to me, but to many American and UK residents. Inge, in classical meninism fashion, diverts from the topic by saying various things akin to: "but men have it worse, cause they have to pay more for food" Not explicitly saying that period utilities shouldn't be cheaper, but through diverting the discussion to the apparently more important topic of why men are worse off than women, entirely disregards the former discussion and by that issue raised. His supposed point, the question about affordability of good and healthy food, does go hand in hand with the general theme of period poverty - which is why it's not the smartest thing to value against, as they have a similar underlying issue. Disproportionate spread of wealth. It is also very in line with current politics that when we talk about women's issues, the topic is diverted to an entirely different topic or someone shoults: BUT WE SHOULD INCLUDE MEN AS WELL. Which is entirely correct, though this cannot prevent us from working on and solving a know and researched issue, just because it "only" affects women. It's ridiculous. You weigh and judge a problem that doesn't even concern you. Good on you. Not. According to the logic inge displayed, people who forget their coats shouldn't get treatment for the cold they caught as others didn't forget their coat and are well. Great society, would want to live in 5/7 times. The questions posed are all valid and I think have a merit all on their own, but not as a counterquestion to people discussion women's issues in an attempt to redirect the focus of the topic at hand to something different. It is tedious, disingenuous and distracts from actually tackling real world problems. Why is it so important to bring these questions up right the moment we're talking about women? You would not have brought them up by yourself because they're dear to you, you bring them up to make posters here look like they're not caring about men as much as women or not thinking about the big picture. Though entirely disingenuous and seemingy not interested in any solution to the problem at hand. Well no, you are being rather unfair. Money is fungible. You haven't demonstrated why tampons, in particular, should be free to everyone. I already said tampons should be accessible to the poor, like every other basic human need, but you continue to conflate me saying "free tampons for everyone doesn't really make much sense" with me saying "fuck anyone who can't pay for things they need." But at least you are virtue signalling as hard as you possibly can. Asking "why are you choosing X over Y" is not whataboutism when the two are paid for with fungible tax dollars. You have to be able to justify your choice in the political arena. The #1 most annoying thing on this forum is people throwing out trendy words like whataboutism instead of considering the logical/rhetorical structure of the argument and actually thinking for themselves. Like you realize that you seem to be taking the position that middle class and rich women should be getting a tampon subsidy over more redistribution to people with less money? No one taking your line of argument has explained why this should be. "It's a basic human right" doesn't cut it because that argument can be applied to a ton of shit and yet those things aren't being made free. Why would you choose to distribute societal resources based on identity rather than need? Uhm, you're missing my entire point. It's not in my intention to provide free sanitary products (it's more than tampons but that's just by the by) and never was. So please leave that aside and adress why it's important to divert from the issue of period poverty discussed to men being disadvantaged by having to buy more food for their caloric needs? And food poverty not being discussed in conjunction with the aforementioned is entirely up to your framing of the additional question.
To toss out an erisological phrase like people love to do here: you are shifting the goal posts in an attempt to shame and slander me. I was talking about whether tampons should be free, not period poverty.
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On May 13 2019 03:33 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 03:26 IgnE wrote:On May 13 2019 03:21 Gorsameth wrote:On May 13 2019 03:15 IgnE wrote:On May 13 2019 01:50 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 12 2019 22:13 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:07 ThaddeusK wrote:On May 12 2019 19:31 Artisreal wrote:
The way you portrayed /I perceived your opinion via the last couple of posts of yours is rather questionable though. I am under the impression that you question giving out free period utility items because food, of which men in your words need more of than women, isn't free albeit being a super basic need.
His point is very simple, an argument that women should receive free tampons/pads because it is unequal/unfair that women have a higher cost of living than men requires showing than women actually do have a higher cost of living than men, which the need to buy tampons/pads does not prove because there are cost of living expenses other than tampons/pads. His point remains unclear. And my question is as to why the argument is about weighing x vs y, man vs woman when it should be about why people are priced out of essential services Give us the bare minimum you would price essential services. I agree that hunger, tampons, and housing should not be a factor in today's world of abundance, but it is. What would be your absolute minimum threshold for those? I really do not want to talk about individual items and prices because that's so far away from what my point is. This whole thing started with period utiliites being ridiculously overpriced. Which is abundantly clear by the price talked about a couple of pages ago and them being availabe for 12% of that price (14$ to 1.5€) in a similarly developed country. Just sarch for period poverty and be be aghast that this actually is a problem. And even a couple of quid make a difference. Not to you or to me, but to many American and UK residents. Inge, in classical meninism fashion, diverts from the topic by saying various things akin to: "but men have it worse, cause they have to pay more for food" Not explicitly saying that period utilities shouldn't be cheaper, but through diverting the discussion to the apparently more important topic of why men are worse off than women, entirely disregards the former discussion and by that issue raised. His supposed point, the question about affordability of good and healthy food, does go hand in hand with the general theme of period poverty - which is why it's not the smartest thing to value against, as they have a similar underlying issue. Disproportionate spread of wealth. It is also very in line with current politics that when we talk about women's issues, the topic is diverted to an entirely different topic or someone shoults: BUT WE SHOULD INCLUDE MEN AS WELL. Which is entirely correct, though this cannot prevent us from working on and solving a know and researched issue, just because it "only" affects women. It's ridiculous. You weigh and judge a problem that doesn't even concern you. Good on you. Not. According to the logic inge displayed, people who forget their coats shouldn't get treatment for the cold they caught as others didn't forget their coat and are well. Great society, would want to live in 5/7 times. The questions posed are all valid and I think have a merit all on their own, but not as a counterquestion to people discussion women's issues in an attempt to redirect the focus of the topic at hand to something different. It is tedious, disingenuous and distracts from actually tackling real world problems. Why is it so important to bring these questions up right the moment we're talking about women? You would not have brought them up by yourself because they're dear to you, you bring them up to make posters here look like they're not caring about men as much as women or not thinking about the big picture. Though entirely disingenuous and seemingy not interested in any solution to the problem at hand. Well no, you are being rather unfair. Money is fungible. You haven't demonstrated why tampons, in particular, should be free to everyone. I already said tampons should be accessible to the poor, like every other basic human need, but you continue to conflate me saying "free tampons for everyone doesn't really make much sense" with me saying "fuck anyone who can't pay for things they need." But at least you are virtue signalling as hard as you possibly can. Asking "why are you choosing X over Y" is not whataboutism when the two are paid for with fungible tax dollars. You have to be able to justify your choice in the political arena. The #1 most annoying thing on this forum is people throwing out trendy words like whataboutism instead of considering the logical/rhetorical structure of the argument and actually thinking for themselves. Why does America have to chose between X over Y when the rest of the Western world can afford both X and Y (aswell as Z) ? No western country has provided free tampons to everyone who bleeds. Why is that? Because they are already cheap enough that someone living off social security can buy them. See the earlier example provided where they are 12% of the price.
This whole discussion started from an anecdote P6 shared about one brand of tampons. No one has actually substantiated a broader claim about the price of tampons in the US generally, or even that they’re more expensive here than in Europe. There’s been hardly any discussion of the market economics at all.
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On May 13 2019 03:42 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 03:33 Gorsameth wrote:On May 13 2019 03:26 IgnE wrote:On May 13 2019 03:21 Gorsameth wrote:On May 13 2019 03:15 IgnE wrote:On May 13 2019 01:50 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 12 2019 22:13 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:07 ThaddeusK wrote:On May 12 2019 19:31 Artisreal wrote:
The way you portrayed /I perceived your opinion via the last couple of posts of yours is rather questionable though. I am under the impression that you question giving out free period utility items because food, of which men in your words need more of than women, isn't free albeit being a super basic need.
His point is very simple, an argument that women should receive free tampons/pads because it is unequal/unfair that women have a higher cost of living than men requires showing than women actually do have a higher cost of living than men, which the need to buy tampons/pads does not prove because there are cost of living expenses other than tampons/pads. His point remains unclear. And my question is as to why the argument is about weighing x vs y, man vs woman when it should be about why people are priced out of essential services Give us the bare minimum you would price essential services. I agree that hunger, tampons, and housing should not be a factor in today's world of abundance, but it is. What would be your absolute minimum threshold for those? I really do not want to talk about individual items and prices because that's so far away from what my point is. This whole thing started with period utiliites being ridiculously overpriced. Which is abundantly clear by the price talked about a couple of pages ago and them being availabe for 12% of that price (14$ to 1.5€) in a similarly developed country. Just sarch for period poverty and be be aghast that this actually is a problem. And even a couple of quid make a difference. Not to you or to me, but to many American and UK residents. Inge, in classical meninism fashion, diverts from the topic by saying various things akin to: "but men have it worse, cause they have to pay more for food" Not explicitly saying that period utilities shouldn't be cheaper, but through diverting the discussion to the apparently more important topic of why men are worse off than women, entirely disregards the former discussion and by that issue raised. His supposed point, the question about affordability of good and healthy food, does go hand in hand with the general theme of period poverty - which is why it's not the smartest thing to value against, as they have a similar underlying issue. Disproportionate spread of wealth. It is also very in line with current politics that when we talk about women's issues, the topic is diverted to an entirely different topic or someone shoults: BUT WE SHOULD INCLUDE MEN AS WELL. Which is entirely correct, though this cannot prevent us from working on and solving a know and researched issue, just because it "only" affects women. It's ridiculous. You weigh and judge a problem that doesn't even concern you. Good on you. Not. According to the logic inge displayed, people who forget their coats shouldn't get treatment for the cold they caught as others didn't forget their coat and are well. Great society, would want to live in 5/7 times. The questions posed are all valid and I think have a merit all on their own, but not as a counterquestion to people discussion women's issues in an attempt to redirect the focus of the topic at hand to something different. It is tedious, disingenuous and distracts from actually tackling real world problems. Why is it so important to bring these questions up right the moment we're talking about women? You would not have brought them up by yourself because they're dear to you, you bring them up to make posters here look like they're not caring about men as much as women or not thinking about the big picture. Though entirely disingenuous and seemingy not interested in any solution to the problem at hand. Well no, you are being rather unfair. Money is fungible. You haven't demonstrated why tampons, in particular, should be free to everyone. I already said tampons should be accessible to the poor, like every other basic human need, but you continue to conflate me saying "free tampons for everyone doesn't really make much sense" with me saying "fuck anyone who can't pay for things they need." But at least you are virtue signalling as hard as you possibly can. Asking "why are you choosing X over Y" is not whataboutism when the two are paid for with fungible tax dollars. You have to be able to justify your choice in the political arena. The #1 most annoying thing on this forum is people throwing out trendy words like whataboutism instead of considering the logical/rhetorical structure of the argument and actually thinking for themselves. Why does America have to chose between X over Y when the rest of the Western world can afford both X and Y (aswell as Z) ? No western country has provided free tampons to everyone who bleeds. Why is that? Because they are already cheap enough that someone living off social security can buy them. See the earlier example provided where they are 12% of the price. This whole discussion started from an anecdote P6 shared about one brand of tampons. No one has actually substantiated a broader claim about the price of tampons in the US generally, or even that they’re more expensive here than in Europe. There’s been hardly any discussion of the market economics at all. so... why not simply counter with examples of tampons not being that expensive if your willing to settle for a different brand?
There was no discussion about whether these were a very expensive brand because many here don't live in the US and can't check prices, or don't have to buy tampons.
Since no one offered a counter example, and you still haven't, why should we assume this is not simply what they cost in the US?
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I googled it just now and I think I see several boxes of tampons for les than $4 at Walmart and Target. I have no idea about their substituability with other tampons.
Here’s a site that offers an average: www.statista.com
Average price $6
Here’s a Blomberg article
Let’s say you’re able to spend $20 on tampons for the next few months, and you’ve put that money into a Flexible Spending Account, avoiding payroll taxes.
You walk in to your local drugstore and see that the store-brand tampons are $4 for a box of 20. You can buy 5 boxes using your FSA debit card.
But the law doesn’t currently allow menstrual products to be purchased with your FSA. So before you’ve reached for your wallet, thirty percent of your tampon budget goes to taxes. With the remaining $14, you can buy three and a half boxes. (You can’t really buy a half a box, but let’s pretend.)
That’s only 70 tampons.
Congress seemed poised to address this. The House passed a bill in July that would add menstrual products to the list of FSA- and HSA-eligible products, among other changes, though the Senate has not yet considered the bill.
But the savings would benefit mostly middle- and upper-class girls and women. For women who work in low-paying jobs without benefits or are unemployed, purchasing a health insurance plan that includes an HSA is often out of reach. And for women who are living paycheck to paycheck, deciding to set aside pay months in advance can be unthinkable.
A local fix could help lower the price for tampon buyers, regardless of how they pay.
FWIW I totally support not taxing tampons.
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Explain to me how pointing out your immediate reshifting of focus from women to men is moving the goalpost. I don't understand that, sorry.
And that is my single strife with your posts these last pages. Idk if that came across.
Also if you're poor every $ counts. Your clear disregard for an acknowledged problem really doesn't help you in this situation.
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Norway28701 Posts
I do not understand what's hard to understand about Igne's point here; that is, you want to subsidize items based on a) necessity b) income level, not a) necessity b) gender/ethnicity/sexual orientation. That health insurance or other government programs might cover items that are only male (viagra or whatever) is a separate issue.
I don't really see a logically consistent argument for why you'd want to subsidize pads or tampons for all women without also wanting to subsidize (basic) food, clothing or housing for all people. I mean 'it's easier because it's a singular product' or whatever, sure, but not really in terms of societal benefit.
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I hope nobody read into my posts what drone wrote..
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On May 13 2019 04:03 IgnE wrote:I googled it just now and I think I see several boxes of tampons for les than $4 at Walmart and Target. I have no idea about their substituability with other tampons. Here’s a site that offers an average: www.statista.comAverage price $6 Here’s a Blomberg article Show nested quote +Let’s say you’re able to spend $20 on tampons for the next few months, and you’ve put that money into a Flexible Spending Account, avoiding payroll taxes.
You walk in to your local drugstore and see that the store-brand tampons are $4 for a box of 20. You can buy 5 boxes using your FSA debit card.
But the law doesn’t currently allow menstrual products to be purchased with your FSA. So before you’ve reached for your wallet, thirty percent of your tampon budget goes to taxes. With the remaining $14, you can buy three and a half boxes. (You can’t really buy a half a box, but let’s pretend.)
That’s only 70 tampons.
Congress seemed poised to address this. The House passed a bill in July that would add menstrual products to the list of FSA- and HSA-eligible products, among other changes, though the Senate has not yet considered the bill.
But the savings would benefit mostly middle- and upper-class girls and women. For women who work in low-paying jobs without benefits or are unemployed, purchasing a health insurance plan that includes an HSA is often out of reach. And for women who are living paycheck to paycheck, deciding to set aside pay months in advance can be unthinkable.
A local fix could help lower the price for tampon buyers, regardless of how they pay.
FWIW I totally support not taxing tampons. Seems the general gist is that affording them is still a problem for the poor. Sure they don't need to be free per say. But they need to be affordable for everyone, and if cutting taxes on them accomplishes that then that is fine.
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On May 13 2019 03:50 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2019 03:42 IgnE wrote:On May 13 2019 03:33 Gorsameth wrote:On May 13 2019 03:26 IgnE wrote:On May 13 2019 03:21 Gorsameth wrote:On May 13 2019 03:15 IgnE wrote:On May 13 2019 01:50 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 12 2019 22:13 Artisreal wrote:On May 12 2019 22:07 ThaddeusK wrote:
[quote]
His point is very simple, an argument that women should receive free tampons/pads because it is unequal/unfair that women have a higher cost of living than men requires showing than women actually do have a higher cost of living than men, which the need to buy tampons/pads does not prove because there are cost of living expenses other than tampons/pads. His point remains unclear. And my question is as to why the argument is about weighing x vs y, man vs woman when it should be about why people are priced out of essential services Give us the bare minimum you would price essential services. I agree that hunger, tampons, and housing should not be a factor in today's world of abundance, but it is. What would be your absolute minimum threshold for those? I really do not want to talk about individual items and prices because that's so far away from what my point is. This whole thing started with period utiliites being ridiculously overpriced. Which is abundantly clear by the price talked about a couple of pages ago and them being availabe for 12% of that price (14$ to 1.5€) in a similarly developed country. Just sarch for period poverty and be be aghast that this actually is a problem. And even a couple of quid make a difference. Not to you or to me, but to many American and UK residents. Inge, in classical meninism fashion, diverts from the topic by saying various things akin to: "but men have it worse, cause they have to pay more for food" Not explicitly saying that period utilities shouldn't be cheaper, but through diverting the discussion to the apparently more important topic of why men are worse off than women, entirely disregards the former discussion and by that issue raised. His supposed point, the question about affordability of good and healthy food, does go hand in hand with the general theme of period poverty - which is why it's not the smartest thing to value against, as they have a similar underlying issue. Disproportionate spread of wealth. It is also very in line with current politics that when we talk about women's issues, the topic is diverted to an entirely different topic or someone shoults: BUT WE SHOULD INCLUDE MEN AS WELL. Which is entirely correct, though this cannot prevent us from working on and solving a know and researched issue, just because it "only" affects women. It's ridiculous. You weigh and judge a problem that doesn't even concern you. Good on you. Not. According to the logic inge displayed, people who forget their coats shouldn't get treatment for the cold they caught as others didn't forget their coat and are well. Great society, would want to live in 5/7 times. The questions posed are all valid and I think have a merit all on their own, but not as a counterquestion to people discussion women's issues in an attempt to redirect the focus of the topic at hand to something different. It is tedious, disingenuous and distracts from actually tackling real world problems. Why is it so important to bring these questions up right the moment we're talking about women? You would not have brought them up by yourself because they're dear to you, you bring them up to make posters here look like they're not caring about men as much as women or not thinking about the big picture. Though entirely disingenuous and seemingy not interested in any solution to the problem at hand. Well no, you are being rather unfair. Money is fungible. You haven't demonstrated why tampons, in particular, should be free to everyone. I already said tampons should be accessible to the poor, like every other basic human need, but you continue to conflate me saying "free tampons for everyone doesn't really make much sense" with me saying "fuck anyone who can't pay for things they need." But at least you are virtue signalling as hard as you possibly can. Asking "why are you choosing X over Y" is not whataboutism when the two are paid for with fungible tax dollars. You have to be able to justify your choice in the political arena. The #1 most annoying thing on this forum is people throwing out trendy words like whataboutism instead of considering the logical/rhetorical structure of the argument and actually thinking for themselves. Why does America have to chose between X over Y when the rest of the Western world can afford both X and Y (aswell as Z) ? No western country has provided free tampons to everyone who bleeds. Why is that? Because they are already cheap enough that someone living off social security can buy them. See the earlier example provided where they are 12% of the price. This whole discussion started from an anecdote P6 shared about one brand of tampons. No one has actually substantiated a broader claim about the price of tampons in the US generally, or even that they’re more expensive here than in Europe. There’s been hardly any discussion of the market economics at all. so... why not simply counter with examples of tampons not being that expensive if your willing to settle for a different brand? There was no discussion about whether these were a very expensive brand because many here don't live in the US and can't check prices, or don't have to buy tampons. Since no one offered a counter example, and you still haven't, why should we assume this is not simply what they cost in the US?
I’m 100% sure I did not start this discussion.
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Norway28701 Posts
On May 13 2019 04:35 Artisreal wrote:
I hope nobody read into my posts what drone wrote..
What part of Igne's stated opinion is it you disagree with?
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Does this post answer your question, drone?
On May 13 2019 02:26 Artisreal wrote:
The thing is that I absolutely agree with the questions being asked - and that I made quite clear imo.
It's really about timing these questions in conjunction with a post about women. 100%. Nothing else.
It's not about devil's advocate. Instead of asking what about this other issue, you could easily add your point of people lacking access to food to the discussion withough diminishing the importance of the issues raised before.
That, in my perception, was severely lacking in the way Inge engaged.
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I responded to this post:
On May 12 2019 06:29 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2019 06:14 Artisreal wrote:On May 11 2019 11:51 ShoCkeyy wrote:On May 11 2019 09:35 Nebuchad wrote:On May 11 2019 09:25 Mohdoo wrote:
Ben Shapiro getting eviscerated on BBC is a life highlight for me. Oh man + Show Spoiler +I find it hilarious that at the beginning of the interview he almost literally embodies the meme. "I've got all these cool new ideas like christian conservatism" I find it hilarious that Shapiro openly moves the goal posts at 7:45. He’s openly asking for an even worse president or a president equal to Trump. Today my wife noticed that her period pads went up in price, and they did it subtly. They used to charge $14 for a pack of 36, now its $14 for a pack 26. No more packs of 36 available which helped last her bi weekly flow. Let’s force women to spend more on something that should already be given for free. I feel even worse for those women that can’t afford it, slowly having to watch women be attacked because they bleed monthly. The fact that people still choose to try and govern what others can do with their body is not just. I don’t know if any of you have seen Handmaids Tale, but when my wife watched that, her eyes were opened much more to the current situation in the US. Do you mean those? 14$ is outrageous I can only imagine people who don't understand anatomy/basic biology opposing menstrual products being free at the point of consumption.
pointing out that a lot of basic biological needs are not “free at the point of consumption,” and that I don’t see a reason to make tampons free over any of those other basic needs. Then a bunch of other people started arguing with me and, implicitly or not, accused me of not being feminist enough.
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I don't see why they should be free. I mean, Toothpaste and various other products everyone needs are also not free. Nailing this "issue" at Tampons feels incredibly shortsighted.
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Norway28701 Posts
I mean, Igne can argue his own point of view, but my understanding is that he examines political issues from a class-lens rather than an identity one. I agree with this and feel the same way. And then the notion that all women should get subsidized items due to them being female doesn't really make sense, because there are female millionaires who don't need that help at all. I mean I do understand that white males are still wealthier than all identities other than asian male (I think?) and that identity-based subsidies will often also have some overlap with class-oriented subsidies, but this is incidental and thus less ideal than simply subsidizing based on class in the first place.
I think people conflated Igne's opposition to gender-based subsidies with a more right-wing opposition to giving benefits to poor people, in a way that he never stated at all, and that all the negative responses he gets to the examples he gives for 'why subsidize tampons and not x' are based around this mistake.
*Note that I think certain identity-based programs have played an important role in including more women/minorities in certain professions/positions, but I no longer really believe that this is the ideal path forward both because it fails to pick up on needs of poor white males and because it detracts from the real success of some women and minorities. I still strongly favor social programs that will overwhelmingly be beneficial towards women or certain minority groups, as every significant difference between people of different non-chosen identities is based around structural differences, but I still want those social programs to be based around class-related factors rather than identity-related factors; there's no reason why a millionaire woman or black person should enjoy subsidies that a white male with parents making combined $35000 should not.
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I don’t think a bunch of men discussing women’s monthly menstration is going to do anything. Especially when people can’t and won’t want to empathize.
I’ve met homeless women who can’t afford pants or pads, for how long their menstation lasts, remember tampons aren’t the only items that can be used, and sometimes don’t work... and I just feel bad for them.
And Velr, you don’t need toothpaste, you can just let your teeth rot. You choose to buy toothpaste because you want your teeth to look, feel and smell good. You think women choose to have periods?
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The it is in the government’s best interest to keep all hygiene products cheap and available to the entire population. Some things might be free or near to free to make sure everyone can access them.
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EPT
