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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Yeah it’s -9 F, -33 F windchill here.
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On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one...
Yeah I'm going with a low effort post on that...
This is a discussion board, you can't just say "no u" and be content. Why exactly is it not child abuse when it could literally end up killing your child? And if that doesn't happen there's a chance of permanent damage. Hell, even if it doesn't end up killing your kid, it could end up killing someone else's due to weakened herd immunity. It's laughable that not vaccinating your child is even an option in today's society.
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United States44286 Posts
On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one...
It is though. You have a duty of care for your kids that extends to not deliberately exposing them to measles, and that’s what not vaccinating is. Hell, if I said rabid dogs rather than measles we wouldn’t be disagreeing, and measles is far more common.
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On January 30 2019 12:03 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 04:44 Godwrath wrote:On January 30 2019 04:00 RvB wrote:
It's not just a problem in the US. Not vaccinating is a growing problem in Europe as well. No idea why though. From a first look it seems to be religious beliefs, but it's really hard to pin it down to be honest. Mostly on Eastern Europe. What's the blame for the EU being so anti-science when it comes to GMO's? (The science is crystal clear on this one)
You are cute when you try to conflate anti-science positions such as flat earth, no climate change, to not accepting the drawbacks that GMO production brings.
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To be fair, a good part of the anti-GMO crowd does actually think "Gentech = Unnatural = Evilmutantplants = Weareallgonnadie" and has no clue about why it is actually problematic.
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On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one...
For the same reason a parent would get in trouble for leaving their toddler in central park overnight, a parent should get in trouble for not protecting their kids against infection. A conscious decision to not prevent a potentially terrible outcome is plain and simple abuse. A child can not care for themselves. Their entire existence relies on parents. That responsibility also comes with obligation.
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Its also not just about proecting your kids, its about protecting "weak" kids/elderly that for some reason couldn't get vaccinated or for people it didn't work.
Most Kids pretty easily overcome a measles infection, weak ones and the elderly don't and for them its a really horrible and dangerous desease.
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On January 31 2019 00:44 Velr wrote:
Its also not just about proecting your kids, its about protecting "weak" kids/elderly that for some reason couldn't get vaccinated or for people it didn't work.
Most Kids pretty easily overcome a measles infection, weak ones and the elderly don't and for them its a really horrible and dangerous desease.
Right, in which case you could also describe refusal to vaccinate as reckless endangerment. Infants aren't able to be vaccinated, so we have a duty to protect them to the best of our abilities by vaccinating everyone we can. Failure to vaccinate is a disgustingly selfish perspective and I think those who choose not to vaccinate should face prison time.
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On January 31 2019 00:38 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one... For the same reason a parent would get in trouble for leaving their toddler in central park overnight, a parent should get in trouble for not protecting their kids against infection. A conscious decision to not prevent a potentially terrible outcome is plain and simple abuse. A child can not care for themselves. Their entire existence relies on parents. That responsibility also comes with obligation.
Does the same apply to trump for his climate change denial?
How many children is he choosing to abuse?
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On January 30 2019 23:31 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one... Yeah I'm going with a low effort post on that... This is a discussion board, you can't just say "no u" and be content. Why exactly is it not child abuse when it could literally end up killing your child? And if that doesn't happen there's a chance of permanent damage. Hell, even if it doesn't end up killing your kid, it could end up killing someone else's due to weakened herd immunity. It's laughable that not vaccinating your child is even an option in today's society.
I haven't put effort into all of my positions. I had a great childhood. If I didn't get measles as a teen and whichever ones I got as a child, it would have been 0.5% better. Thinking of all the legal things that I could have been subjected to and wasn't... they could have put me in a church, they could have taught me to hate the religious, or the gays, or the trans, or the foreigners, they could have pushed ideologies or expectations on me. I'm fine. Not ready to trade.
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On January 31 2019 00:47 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 00:38 Mohdoo wrote:On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one... For the same reason a parent would get in trouble for leaving their toddler in central park overnight, a parent should get in trouble for not protecting their kids against infection. A conscious decision to not prevent a potentially terrible outcome is plain and simple abuse. A child can not care for themselves. Their entire existence relies on parents. That responsibility also comes with obligation. Does the same apply to trump for his climate change denial? How many children is he choosing to abuse?
Yes, I agree and I think politicians should be able to be imprisoned for negligence. Overall, people in positions of power are not imprisoned nearly often enough. The world isn't accountable in the way it needs to be.
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On January 31 2019 00:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 23:31 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one... Yeah I'm going with a low effort post on that... This is a discussion board, you can't just say "no u" and be content. Why exactly is it not child abuse when it could literally end up killing your child? And if that doesn't happen there's a chance of permanent damage. Hell, even if it doesn't end up killing your kid, it could end up killing someone else's due to weakened herd immunity. It's laughable that not vaccinating your child is even an option in today's society. I haven't put effort into all of my positions. I had a great childhood. If I didn't get measles as a teen and whichever ones I got as a child, it would have been 0.5% better. Thinking of all the legal things that I could have been subjected to and wasn't... they could have put me in a church, they could have taught me to hate the religious, or the gays, or the trans, or the foreigners, they could have pushed ideologies or expectations on me. I'm fine. Not ready to trade.
This is a weird post and I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that since your childhood was pretty good, it isn't a big deal when infants die from preventable infection? Or are you saying because that didn't happen to you, it can't be that bad? Please clarify
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On January 31 2019 00:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 23:31 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one... Yeah I'm going with a low effort post on that... This is a discussion board, you can't just say "no u" and be content. Why exactly is it not child abuse when it could literally end up killing your child? And if that doesn't happen there's a chance of permanent damage. Hell, even if it doesn't end up killing your kid, it could end up killing someone else's due to weakened herd immunity. It's laughable that not vaccinating your child is even an option in today's society. I haven't put effort into all of my positions. I had a great childhood. If I didn't get measles as a teen and whichever ones I got as a child, it would have been 0.5% better. Thinking of all the legal things that I could have been subjected to and wasn't... they could have put me in a church, they could have taught me to hate the religious, or the gays, or the trans, or the foreigners, they could have pushed ideologies or expectations on me. I'm fine. Not ready to trade.
You need to look up the definition of anecdotal evidence. Just because it worked out for you doesn't mean it's a good idea. I fell down a set of stairs when I was young and all I got was a scar on my chin, that doesn't mean it's "fine" for children to fall down stairs, because some of them could die. Your using your own experience of growing up without vaccines and overlay them onto all experiences for everyone growing up without them (or, as it turns out, doesn't grow up at all).
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Thats one of the issues, not being vaccinated works fine for a large majority, exactly because everyone else is vaccinated.
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I would more than happy with mandatory education for parents who don't vaccinate their kids. They should be made to look at the data and listen to the doctors, and listen to the stories of parents who lost their kids due to not vaccinating them rather than being lectured through the government or the media.
I genuinely think that in the vast majority of these cases the kids would still be better off out of the system with their parents than being shoved into the child protection system.
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On January 31 2019 01:09 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 00:49 Nebuchad wrote:On January 30 2019 23:31 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one... Yeah I'm going with a low effort post on that... This is a discussion board, you can't just say "no u" and be content. Why exactly is it not child abuse when it could literally end up killing your child? And if that doesn't happen there's a chance of permanent damage. Hell, even if it doesn't end up killing your kid, it could end up killing someone else's due to weakened herd immunity. It's laughable that not vaccinating your child is even an option in today's society. I haven't put effort into all of my positions. I had a great childhood. If I didn't get measles as a teen and whichever ones I got as a child, it would have been 0.5% better. Thinking of all the legal things that I could have been subjected to and wasn't... they could have put me in a church, they could have taught me to hate the religious, or the gays, or the trans, or the foreigners, they could have pushed ideologies or expectations on me. I'm fine. Not ready to trade. This is a weird post and I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that since your childhood was pretty good, it isn't a big deal when infants die from preventable infection? Or are you saying because that didn't happen to you, it can't be that bad? Please clarify
Child abuse is a big word to me. It implies that the kid would be so much better off with some other parents that the state has to intervene. I find it pretty insulting to child abuse victims that you would compare their experience to mine, and I don't want laws that reflect that.
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On January 31 2019 01:32 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 01:09 Mohdoo wrote:On January 31 2019 00:49 Nebuchad wrote:On January 30 2019 23:31 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one... Yeah I'm going with a low effort post on that... This is a discussion board, you can't just say "no u" and be content. Why exactly is it not child abuse when it could literally end up killing your child? And if that doesn't happen there's a chance of permanent damage. Hell, even if it doesn't end up killing your kid, it could end up killing someone else's due to weakened herd immunity. It's laughable that not vaccinating your child is even an option in today's society. I haven't put effort into all of my positions. I had a great childhood. If I didn't get measles as a teen and whichever ones I got as a child, it would have been 0.5% better. Thinking of all the legal things that I could have been subjected to and wasn't... they could have put me in a church, they could have taught me to hate the religious, or the gays, or the trans, or the foreigners, they could have pushed ideologies or expectations on me. I'm fine. Not ready to trade. This is a weird post and I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that since your childhood was pretty good, it isn't a big deal when infants die from preventable infection? Or are you saying because that didn't happen to you, it can't be that bad? Please clarify Child abuse is a big word to me. It implies that the kid would be so much better off with some other parents that the state has to intervene. I find it pretty insulting to child abuse victims that you would compare their experience to mine, and I don't want laws that reflect that.
So when a baby dies from a preventable infection, what exactly does that mean? In your eyes, what occurred? When your parents decided to put infant children at risk of death, did they fail morally in any way?
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On January 31 2019 00:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 23:31 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:On January 30 2019 19:33 Excludos wrote:On January 30 2019 17:26 explosivekangaroo wrote:On January 30 2019 07:50 TheYango wrote:On January 30 2019 04:06 Excludos wrote:
Getting vaccinated as an adult isn't wrong either. It's not just "not wrong", it's actively recommended. Established medical organizations recommend a lot of vaccines for adults (yearly flu shot, tetanus booster every 10 years, pneumonia after age 65, etc.). It's just that when it comes to adults, we can't really make anyone do it because the the ethical/legal boundaries for medical autonomy are pretty clear-cut. If an adult doesn't want vaccines, we can't make them do it. Children are just an ethical nightmare when it comes to medical practice because they don't have autonomy to make their own medical decisions, so shitty parents that don't make decisions in the best interest of their kids become a problem. The state can actually override a parent's medical decision making if they are deemed to be acting against the best interest of the child--generally only really invoked in life-saving procedures with clear benefit (e.g. a Jehovah's Witness who refuses life-saving blood transfusion for their kid, or a mother who refuses chemotherapy for a kid with lymphoma because she believes in homeopathy). It's very easy to find cases where this has gone to court. Vaccines happen to occupy a troublesome space where because they are a form of preventative care rather than treatment, it's not really been established that medical providers or the state can override the parent's decision. Even though the same logic applies in theory, the nature of preventative care having probabilistic rather than deterministic benefit means that the same policies can't really be used (even though they should, IMO). I don't believe that the state should have the authority over the medical decisions concercning children. I think the best solution is to fund information campaigns. Honestly I compare not giving your kids vaccines akin to child abuse Yeah, I'm going to go with no on that one... Yeah I'm going with a low effort post on that... This is a discussion board, you can't just say "no u" and be content. Why exactly is it not child abuse when it could literally end up killing your child? And if that doesn't happen there's a chance of permanent damage. Hell, even if it doesn't end up killing your kid, it could end up killing someone else's due to weakened herd immunity. It's laughable that not vaccinating your child is even an option in today's society. I haven't put effort into all of my positions. I had a great childhood. If I didn't get measles as a teen and whichever ones I got as a child, it would have been 0.5% better. Thinking of all the legal things that I could have been subjected to and wasn't... they could have put me in a church, they could have taught me to hate the religious, or the gays, or the trans, or the foreigners, they could have pushed ideologies or expectations on me. I'm fine. Not ready to trade.
I got into a head on collision once because I wasn't paying attention and ran a red, but it turned out to just be a fender bender and we were both fine. I therefore propose we don't actually need stop lights anywhere, because I got into a crash and it turned out ok.
I'm not sure if you're aware, but plenty of people who get those same preventable diseases you did don't live through it, or end up living in a hospital in an iron lung for the rest of their lives.
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EPT
