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Once again, as this is a sensitive topic and one that can cause a lot of unnecessary things to be said in the heat of the moment, be VERY careful about what you post. Think twice before actually stating something and please be considerate of anyone who may feel involved or affected. |
On July 16 2016 07:41 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 07:29 SiroKO wrote:On July 16 2016 07:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 07:13 SiroKO wrote:
I was jogging there last saturday...
What a tragedy.
Let there be no bullshit slogan such as "Je suis Nice" this time.
Nor lies about the "true nature of Islam".
Tragedy after tragedy, we, the French people, are starting to toughen up.
We are now getting more worried about our survival as a nation than about all the usual PC bullshits.
This is a great sign of vitality emerging out of chaos.
Commiseration today, tomorrow retaliation. How do you retaliate? It's easy to say that, but what do you do? It's a state of mind to have. Be ready to persecute, incarcerate, or kill if needed, any individuals fulfilling enough criterias of Islamic radicalization. And accept the minority of innocent casualties. It's only when you truely feel threatened that you can accept injustices for a greater good. You are really confidently suggesting torture "and accept innocent casualties". Maybe I have too much faith in humanity but that seems messed up.
It is. And its also talk. People who talk about "states of mind" and "the courage to do what is necessary" rarely talk about themselves doing it. They are talking about other people doing it on their behalf and most won't.
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Yep, a bunch of hypocrats who are just too scared.
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On July 16 2016 07:32 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 07:04 Grumbels wrote:On July 16 2016 06:51 Djzapz wrote:On July 16 2016 06:35 Grumbels wrote:On July 16 2016 06:11 Djzapz wrote:On July 16 2016 06:03 Grumbels wrote:
Yes, there clearly has to be something wrong with the world to set off all these terrorist attacks and it seems important to discover what it is, but it's not so simple as saying "Islam, duh". It's also not so simple as saying "it has nothing to do with Islam". I couldn't even begin to try to untangle the mess through which an individual goes to end up doing something like this, but it certain has roots in political reasons, sure - but also in economic, social and cultural ones. And Islam is a component of their politics, Islam is a part of their economy, Islam is a part of how they socialize, and Islam is part of their culture. I love Muslims, I recognize that most of the especially those who live in the West are people I can relate to. But FFS it's not all rainbows and unicorns guys. To reduce it to Islam is only slightly more ridiculous than to say Islam has absolutely nothing to do with it. Simplistic world views are rarely correct. Honestly to even talk about "Islam" as if it's something tangible seems very simplistic. There are people who identify as Muslim, that's the main basis of discussion. The violence tells you that there are problems facing those communities, which we know: radicalization, alienation, poverty, discrimination. Why exactly some men want to live out this martyr fantasy by becoming a suicide terrorist I don't know, you don't know either. Of course I have my suspicions, but is it really worth it to talk about it when inevitably the conversation will take some racist path? All these right-wing people that shout the hardest to say: GUYS, WE HAve a problem with Islam and we have to admit this and we have to deal with this, -- they also don't know either, and I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they can discuss this civilly. Of course people are allowed to think, but when you're the subject of people's discussions it's never pleasant. Muslims don't like having to put up with constant conversations about whether they should be all put in concentration camps or not, whether they should be thrown out of the country or not, whether they are irredeemably evil or not. The media is complicit in racism by allowing right-wing extremists to set the tone of these discussions. Most of us aren't qualified to try to understand the problem but at the same time it's a scary thing and people wish they understood it better, and more importantly they wish the authorities of their country understood it. Americans see Clinton and Obama actively avoid the topic and it's reasonable that some would find it disconcerting. There's no clear definition of the problem, no clear paths of solution. They have experts on staff who undoubtedly have various working theories about what's driving these people, odds are they have some understanding about how the various factors morph whatever understanding of Islam certain people may have into terrorism. I probably fail at this all the time, I'm biased and I have preconceptions about shit like the next guy, but I'm a person who tries, to the best of my ability, to adopt a rational and reasoned view on things. And often it's hard to get to the nuances of stuff, especially in politics. One of my core beliefs is that in order to solve a complex problem or to start dealing with it, you must understand it. So when I see government people giving out simple explanations, or ignoring a potentially important component of the problem, I find it a bit worrisome. Maybe they've got all this intel in the background and they don't want to rile up the population by explaining complicated stuff and so they just give the short version that the average dumb citizen can understand but meh. I just think it's very important to constantly ask yourself this question: will what I'm saying help put Le Pen / Wilders / Trump into office? Any discussion about Islam should take place in such a way that it doesn't benefit these sort of people, because otherwise it's counterproductive for making the world a better place. So we should dive head first into ignorance for political reasons? For all their faults, some conservatives are looking at Trump specifically because of the silver tongue. Trump supporters are in many cases full out crazy, but many are understandably distrustful of Clinton and Obama, and can you blame them entirely? Politically, I'm on the left on a vast majority of issues and I think it's cause for concern. There are people who, right now, may not vote for Hillary if she so much as mentioned Islam as a potential thing to look into as a factor behind terrorist attacks. There are also swing voters in the middle who, not entirely stupid, watch Trump doing Trump things while Clinton doesn't seem to address the problem. I'm not convinced that treating the electorate like they're idiots works for everyone. I think it works with the Republicans, but IMO it shows that Obama and Clinton are contemptuous toward their electorate as well, just like Trump is.
No offense, but you're not a generic leftist given that every time I see you post here it's some variation of: "I'm a leftist, but feminism is going too far", "I'm a leftist, but we need to talk about Islam", "I'm a leftist but I can see that Trump has his good sides".
And ignorance is allowing professional one-note fatalists like Le Pen to have a voice in the discussion. They have nothing worthwhile to contribute, to give them any credit is to give in to some nihilistic, tribalist impulse where you just want to shut off your brain and see some authoritarian leader punish the bad guys. It has no place in civilized society. FYI, fascism is historically a lot more dangerous than Islam.
What you call ignorance actually means a moment of self-reflection to realize that most of us have nothing insightful to say about the problem of Islamic Terrorism and that there are no easy answers. In fact, as others have mentioned, the answer that most people come up with (more anti-Muslim policies) is incredibly likely to increase the chance of more Islamic terrorism. When it comes to hard problems you don't ask know-nothings to come up with the most simplistic and hateful answer. Instead you reach out to others, try to understand the issue from many different sides and you preach for people to remain calm and mindful of various moral values. It's all very difficult, but it's important and needs to be done, only with shared understanding and people being reminded of each other's humanity can people come together.
What is useless is to repeat some variation of "butwhataboutIslam??" a million times as if it has any meaning and as if it's not predicated on racism. Yeah, Muslim communities and their religious beliefs and world views are a factor, but that's not what people care about. They care about creating some form of fervor where Islam is branded as the total enemy of everything we hold dear, it's some psychological process about dealing with this feeling of being under siege, it's not about legitimately trying to understand what causes this violence. Because you can't, it's too complex and too broad and too strongly related to incidental life stories of individuals. Scientists can't tell you what causes it or how to solve it, so an average person on TL or reddit can't either. Islam so interwoven with society, politics, culture in many countries that you can't isolate it and study it independently of everything else. So the only people who are served by this incessant attempt to make Islam the center of conversation are right-wing extremists that depend on arousing tribalist emotions in others to have relevancy.
And like I said, it's not nice to have people literally question your French identity if you're Muslim. Even if it's raised as a postulate to be discussed it already legitimizes hate mongers who seek to divide others.
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On July 16 2016 07:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 07:41 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 07:29 SiroKO wrote:On July 16 2016 07:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 07:13 SiroKO wrote:
I was jogging there last saturday...
What a tragedy.
Let there be no bullshit slogan such as "Je suis Nice" this time.
Nor lies about the "true nature of Islam".
Tragedy after tragedy, we, the French people, are starting to toughen up.
We are now getting more worried about our survival as a nation than about all the usual PC bullshits.
This is a great sign of vitality emerging out of chaos.
Commiseration today, tomorrow retaliation. How do you retaliate? It's easy to say that, but what do you do? It's a state of mind to have. Be ready to persecute, incarcerate, or kill if needed, any individuals fulfilling enough criterias of Islamic radicalization. And accept the minority of innocent casualties. It's only when you truely feel threatened that you can accept injustices for a greater good. You are really confidently suggesting torture "and accept innocent casualties". Maybe I have too much faith in humanity but that seems messed up. It is. And its also talk. People who talk about "states of mind" and "the courage to do what is necessary" rarely talk about themselves doing it. They are talking about other people doing it on their behalf and most won't.
These are some quite remarkable clichés.
In case I wasn't clear enough, I'm not talking about some random heroic people chasing down islamic fanatics on the street...
I talked about the "state of mind", because it's the necessary first step of any significant change.
Appropriate laws and directives is the second step.
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On July 16 2016 07:59 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 07:44 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2016 07:41 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 07:29 SiroKO wrote:On July 16 2016 07:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 07:13 SiroKO wrote:
I was jogging there last saturday...
What a tragedy.
Let there be no bullshit slogan such as "Je suis Nice" this time.
Nor lies about the "true nature of Islam".
Tragedy after tragedy, we, the French people, are starting to toughen up.
We are now getting more worried about our survival as a nation than about all the usual PC bullshits.
This is a great sign of vitality emerging out of chaos.
Commiseration today, tomorrow retaliation. How do you retaliate? It's easy to say that, but what do you do? It's a state of mind to have. Be ready to persecute, incarcerate, or kill if needed, any individuals fulfilling enough criterias of Islamic radicalization. And accept the minority of innocent casualties. It's only when you truely feel threatened that you can accept injustices for a greater good. You are really confidently suggesting torture "and accept innocent casualties". Maybe I have too much faith in humanity but that seems messed up. It is. And its also talk. People who talk about "states of mind" and "the courage to do what is necessary" rarely talk about themselves doing it. They are talking about other people doing it on their behalf and most won't. Appropriate laws and directives is the second step.
Ok but what does that mean
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On July 16 2016 07:59 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 07:44 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2016 07:41 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 07:29 SiroKO wrote:On July 16 2016 07:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 07:13 SiroKO wrote:
I was jogging there last saturday...
What a tragedy.
Let there be no bullshit slogan such as "Je suis Nice" this time.
Nor lies about the "true nature of Islam".
Tragedy after tragedy, we, the French people, are starting to toughen up.
We are now getting more worried about our survival as a nation than about all the usual PC bullshits.
This is a great sign of vitality emerging out of chaos.
Commiseration today, tomorrow retaliation. How do you retaliate? It's easy to say that, but what do you do? It's a state of mind to have. Be ready to persecute, incarcerate, or kill if needed, any individuals fulfilling enough criterias of Islamic radicalization. And accept the minority of innocent casualties. It's only when you truely feel threatened that you can accept injustices for a greater good. You are really confidently suggesting torture "and accept innocent casualties". Maybe I have too much faith in humanity but that seems messed up. It is. And its also talk. People who talk about "states of mind" and "the courage to do what is necessary" rarely talk about themselves doing it. They are talking about other people doing it on their behalf and most won't. These are some quite remarkable clichés. In case I wasn't clear enough, I'm not talking about some random heroic people chasing down islamic fanatics on the street... I talked about the "state of mind", because it's the necessary first step of any significant change. Appropriate laws and directives is the second step.
This is exactly what I was talking about. The "state of mind" to push for laws that require others to do the things you want. For them to be harsher and more ruthless to deal with people that show signs of "Islamic radicalization". What these signs are and how people know is unclear, but the "mind set" will show the way.
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On July 16 2016 08:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 07:59 SiroKO wrote:On July 16 2016 07:44 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2016 07:41 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 07:29 SiroKO wrote:On July 16 2016 07:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 07:13 SiroKO wrote:
I was jogging there last saturday...
What a tragedy.
Let there be no bullshit slogan such as "Je suis Nice" this time.
Nor lies about the "true nature of Islam".
Tragedy after tragedy, we, the French people, are starting to toughen up.
We are now getting more worried about our survival as a nation than about all the usual PC bullshits.
This is a great sign of vitality emerging out of chaos.
Commiseration today, tomorrow retaliation. How do you retaliate? It's easy to say that, but what do you do? It's a state of mind to have. Be ready to persecute, incarcerate, or kill if needed, any individuals fulfilling enough criterias of Islamic radicalization. And accept the minority of innocent casualties. It's only when you truely feel threatened that you can accept injustices for a greater good. You are really confidently suggesting torture "and accept innocent casualties". Maybe I have too much faith in humanity but that seems messed up. It is. And its also talk. People who talk about "states of mind" and "the courage to do what is necessary" rarely talk about themselves doing it. They are talking about other people doing it on their behalf and most won't. These are some quite remarkable clichés. In case I wasn't clear enough, I'm not talking about some random heroic people chasing down islamic fanatics on the street... I talked about the "state of mind", because it's the necessary first step of any significant change. Appropriate laws and directives is the second step. This is exactly what I was talking about. The "state of mind" to push for laws that require others to do the things you want. For them to be harsher and more ruthless to deal with people that show signs of "Islamic radicalization". What these signs are and how people know is unclear, but the "mind set" will show the way.
As a matter of fact, such a classification already exists, as well as people being paid to detect them.
So, your irony kind of totally misses the point.
I'm not going to waste more time discussing at length what was clearly expressed in my first 2 posts.
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I am just catching up on things and haven’t gotten past the first couple of pages of this thread but I have to agree with the people who are upset about the open display of photos from the event, often without any spoilers or warnings. Not only is it disrespectful to the victims, but also bad for the ones who witnessed the attacks. Until the turkey coup sprung up, it was almost impossible to escape coverage until you stayed away from all social media and media in general. Plus I am pretty upset about some people seeming to be more eager to record this shit than anything else.
2 of my younger sisters and I where there when things happened. The older of the 2 finished her a-level this year while the other one had a successful 11th grade, with me having a pretty awesome semester I had decided to invite them to join me on a vacation as a reward. We were not at the beginning of the drive of the assailant but not far from it. The truck drove not more than 2m past us having already hit multiple people. There where loud screams and general panic, people where running. I grabbed my 2 sisters, told them to just shut their eyes and ears and ran for the nearest open building while most people ran directly away across the street. We hid in a bathroom with another guy. While I was standing directly next to the door, pressed against the wall, grabbing and wrestling everyone that was coming in, my sisters where cramped into the corner next to me.
During all of this the guy filmed through the bathroom window until I managed to get his attention and gestured him to stop it. While we hid there for I don’t know how long with the other people that gradually came to hide, he continued to stick to his phone tweeting I believe. I would have gotten it if he was trying to contact someone he knows, but I am pretty sure it was facebook/twitter.
I am also sure I saw a few people filming instead of running/helping while we were dashing for the building we hid in. By that point there were already multiple injured on the ground, I believe I saw the guy that was standing next to us getting run right over from the truck. I understand people panicking and running away, I did so too even though it was because of my sisters, but either you run for your own life or you try to save another, don’t just stand and film…
Right now we are at our room, both my sisters are still under shock, but I was told they don’t seem to be traumatized even though the older one almost completely shut down after the events and still is for the most part. I believe they haven’t seen much, but they heard things for sure as it was loud and pretty horrible. Since we got out of that bathroom they did almost nothing but either sleeping for a very short amount of time or hugging me like they were back to being a small child, only eating very little. If they are awake they are very nervous and I have to almost constantly talk to them as calm as possible. They also can’t fall asleep without me comforting them and holding their hands. I told to stay with them all the time and to take their smartphones and keep them away from all media since footage has already been up while we were still hiding. Now imagine someone who properly speaks French in that situation, they basically can’t get out of their house for the next days.
I also feel like just with the mass shootings, this kind of coverage just encourages copycats/similar acts. It doesn’t matter if there is any religious background or if it is just a person snapping, the idea that these kinds of acts are acceptable has to spring form somewhere and I feel the way these events get covered support this, just like multiple officials stated about the coverage of mass killings.
There is so much more to cover about france but for now I just leave it at “I hope there isn’t any important election coming up” because this shit combined with the piss poor knowledge about the situation and the immense amount of claims from media would lead to nothing but uneducated and stupid panicvotes.
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On July 16 2016 07:54 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 07:32 Djzapz wrote:On July 16 2016 07:04 Grumbels wrote:On July 16 2016 06:51 Djzapz wrote:On July 16 2016 06:35 Grumbels wrote:On July 16 2016 06:11 Djzapz wrote:On July 16 2016 06:03 Grumbels wrote:
Yes, there clearly has to be something wrong with the world to set off all these terrorist attacks and it seems important to discover what it is, but it's not so simple as saying "Islam, duh". It's also not so simple as saying "it has nothing to do with Islam". I couldn't even begin to try to untangle the mess through which an individual goes to end up doing something like this, but it certain has roots in political reasons, sure - but also in economic, social and cultural ones. And Islam is a component of their politics, Islam is a part of their economy, Islam is a part of how they socialize, and Islam is part of their culture. I love Muslims, I recognize that most of the especially those who live in the West are people I can relate to. But FFS it's not all rainbows and unicorns guys. To reduce it to Islam is only slightly more ridiculous than to say Islam has absolutely nothing to do with it. Simplistic world views are rarely correct. Honestly to even talk about "Islam" as if it's something tangible seems very simplistic. There are people who identify as Muslim, that's the main basis of discussion. The violence tells you that there are problems facing those communities, which we know: radicalization, alienation, poverty, discrimination. Why exactly some men want to live out this martyr fantasy by becoming a suicide terrorist I don't know, you don't know either. Of course I have my suspicions, but is it really worth it to talk about it when inevitably the conversation will take some racist path? All these right-wing people that shout the hardest to say: GUYS, WE HAve a problem with Islam and we have to admit this and we have to deal with this, -- they also don't know either, and I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they can discuss this civilly. Of course people are allowed to think, but when you're the subject of people's discussions it's never pleasant. Muslims don't like having to put up with constant conversations about whether they should be all put in concentration camps or not, whether they should be thrown out of the country or not, whether they are irredeemably evil or not. The media is complicit in racism by allowing right-wing extremists to set the tone of these discussions. Most of us aren't qualified to try to understand the problem but at the same time it's a scary thing and people wish they understood it better, and more importantly they wish the authorities of their country understood it. Americans see Clinton and Obama actively avoid the topic and it's reasonable that some would find it disconcerting. There's no clear definition of the problem, no clear paths of solution. They have experts on staff who undoubtedly have various working theories about what's driving these people, odds are they have some understanding about how the various factors morph whatever understanding of Islam certain people may have into terrorism. I probably fail at this all the time, I'm biased and I have preconceptions about shit like the next guy, but I'm a person who tries, to the best of my ability, to adopt a rational and reasoned view on things. And often it's hard to get to the nuances of stuff, especially in politics. One of my core beliefs is that in order to solve a complex problem or to start dealing with it, you must understand it. So when I see government people giving out simple explanations, or ignoring a potentially important component of the problem, I find it a bit worrisome. Maybe they've got all this intel in the background and they don't want to rile up the population by explaining complicated stuff and so they just give the short version that the average dumb citizen can understand but meh. I just think it's very important to constantly ask yourself this question: will what I'm saying help put Le Pen / Wilders / Trump into office? Any discussion about Islam should take place in such a way that it doesn't benefit these sort of people, because otherwise it's counterproductive for making the world a better place. So we should dive head first into ignorance for political reasons? For all their faults, some conservatives are looking at Trump specifically because of the silver tongue. Trump supporters are in many cases full out crazy, but many are understandably distrustful of Clinton and Obama, and can you blame them entirely? Politically, I'm on the left on a vast majority of issues and I think it's cause for concern. There are people who, right now, may not vote for Hillary if she so much as mentioned Islam as a potential thing to look into as a factor behind terrorist attacks. There are also swing voters in the middle who, not entirely stupid, watch Trump doing Trump things while Clinton doesn't seem to address the problem. I'm not convinced that treating the electorate like they're idiots works for everyone. I think it works with the Republicans, but IMO it shows that Obama and Clinton are contemptuous toward their electorate as well, just like Trump is. No offense, but you're not a generic leftist given that every time I see you post here it's some variation of: "I'm a leftist, but feminism is going too far", "I'm a leftist, but we need to talk about Islam", "I'm a leftist but I can see that Trump has his good sides".
I don't think Trump has his good sides, I have some understanding of his appeal and it's insanely worrisome to me. As for the other things, yeah I'm critical of those things and I think everybody should be.
I think you misinterpret my position, and it's very frustrating because my position is so full of self-doubt and I'm so actively conscious that I don't know, and I think I'm being humble about it. And I'm looking for nuance and understanding, knowing that I won't reach it. And yet the things you say...
-"I'm a leftist, but feminism is going too far"... I've criticized gender interest groups before. They're not perfect, their methods are not perfect, their beliefs are not perfect just because they can be filed under an "-ism" which has historically had a noble and extremely important cause. Is the generic leftist a dummy who just adheres to everything that comes from the left?
-"I'm a leftist, but we need to talk about Islam"... I've talked about everything. Christianity, homosexuality, trans, taxation, war, movies, violence in videogames, crime, pornography, guns. Not Islam? We need to talk about everything. We can't talk about Islam but that's because some people make it impossible. And maybe it's useless, sure. But we can talk about it.
-"I'm a leftist but I can see that Trump has his good sides". I don't see Trump's good sides as I've said before, but the way you worded those three sample sentences makes me think you have a very simplistic and binary approach to the world, and perhaps too much confidence in that.
And ignorance is allowing professional one-note fatalists like Le Pen to have a voice in the discussion. They have nothing worthwhile to contribute, to give them any credit is to give in to some nihilistic, tribalist impulse where you just want to shut off your brain and see some authoritarian leader punish the bad guys. It has no place in civilized society. FYI, fascism is historically a lot more dangerous than Islam.
I don't give any of those people any credit.
What you call ignorance actually means a moment of self-reflection to realize that most of us have nothing insightful to say about the problem of Islamic Terrorism and that there are no easy answers. In fact, as others have mentioned, the answer that most people come up with (more anti-Muslim policies) is incredibly likely to increase the chance of more Islamic terrorism. When it comes to hard problems you don't ask know-nothings to come up with the most simplistic and hateful answer. Instead you reach out to others, try to understand the issue from many different sides and you preach for people to remain calm and mindful of various moral values. It's all very difficult, but it's important and needs to be done, only with shared understanding and people being reminded of each other's humanity can people come together.
I think that a holistic(?) understanding of the problem, or a comprehensive understanding of it would rapidly throw out anti-Muslim policies. If a group of smart people, experts and smart people, sat around a table and discussed this, I think they would discuss the Islam angle and it would add to their comprehension of the phenomenon and it wouldn't incriminate Islam, it would discredit anti-Muslim policies of all kinds and perhaps paint them as incredibly counter-productive, but they'd have to look at it.
What is useless is to repeat some variation of "butwhataboutIslam??" a million times as if it has any meaning and as if it's not predicated on racism. Yeah, Muslim communities and their religious beliefs and world views are a factor, but that's not what people care about. They care about creating some form of fervor where Islam is branded as the total enemy of everything we hold dear, it's some psychological process about dealing with this feeling of being under siege, it's not about legitimately trying to understand what causes this violence.
I don't believe that I fall under that category. I think "butwhataboutIslam" is a fair question to ask, that is too often asked by racists and bigots, no doubt, but that has its place nonetheless. Perhaps what some people have been saying is that it's useless to address it in public, and that may be right. It's not conducive to any productive conversation being I feel like I'm being vetted for my intentions which I maintain are pure. And yet I feel like you think lowly of me, because maybe I'm a bigot with an agenda here. And I'm not.
Because you can't, it's too complex and too broad and too strongly related to incidental life stories of individuals. Scientists can't tell you what causes it or how to solve it, so an average person on TL or reddit can't either. Islam so interwoven with society, politics, culture in many countries that you can't isolate it and study it independently of everything else. So the only people who are served by this incessant attempt to make Islam the center of conversation are right-wing extremists that depend on arousing tribalist emotions in others to have relevancy.
People talk about shit they don't understand, some variables can't be isolated, some things can't be understood, yet people try. I think it's fine. I really hope that you're not accusing me of being a right wing extremist, it seems like you loosely are trying to lump me along with them.
Either way I'm now convinced that it's impossible to talk about this, because I'm perhaps a right wing extremist, who doesn't support anything right wing extremists propose as solutions, but I kid of talk like them. What's even the point... -_-
Sorry I even said anything. I'll make my way out of this thread and I'll respond to PMs if anyone really wants to address a point with me.
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On July 16 2016 07:17 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 07:13 SiroKO wrote:
I was jogging there last saturday...
What a tragedy.
Let there be no bullshit slogan such as "Je suis Nice" this time.
Nor lies about the "true nature of Islam".
Tragedy after tragedy, we, the French people, are starting to toughen up.
We are now getting more worried about our survival as a nation than about all the usual PC bullshits.
This is a great sign of vitality emerging out of chaos.
Commiseration today, tomorrow retaliation. How do you retaliate? It's easy to say that, but what do you do?
pretty simple, you extend the state of emergency for 3 months, you say you're going to do everything in your power even if you can't, and you don't address the real problem as usual
and don't forget the #jesuisnice
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I wonder to what extent this will embolden Le Pen and co. Some of the footage out there is...graphic. I'd probably be out for blood if I lived in France.
Goodness knows what this means for UK Politics as well.
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On July 16 2016 06:31 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 06:10 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 06:02 SK.Testie wrote:
Draw a cartoon of mohammed and see how many turn up to "protest". Let's keep this simple. Don't do it. We don't appreciate it. If someone comes to kill you for doing it, I will stand in between you, because he isn't justified in killing you. I'm being dead fucking serious when I say I will literally put my life on the line for you. I ask that you give me enough respect in turn to not do one specific thing that would be done to spite me and other muslims. Everything else was lovely. But right there, right there was the problem. "Don't do it." The problem is "one specific thing" becomes "another specific thing" so very easily. It requires a special status granted to capitulate to the sensitivities of Muslims. It could very well be simple and respectful to not do it. But that's not the only problem, is it? I have a laundry list of problems to go through. There are many die hard Christians who see Jesus mocked in their face regularly. They are stern believers in Jesus. They are ridiculed, spit on, and it's become ok. Granted, they've pushed back with laws they aren't completely innocent. But I'd say it's not exactly the same. They tried to keep their special privileges and failed, and I don't know if they retain any at the moment other than 'privilege'. Which, to be fair is kind of earned considering they built the fucking country in the first place and conquered peoples to get it. Canada in its naiveté has chosen to capitulate. Because, after hearing the story of Mohammed many people disrespect the man. They see him as a pedophile, a warlord, a rapist, not exactly the most peaceful tolerant man. Maybe he had his reasons, maybe he was the man all should aspire to be. But in Italy there was a talk show on the issue and a woman said, "he married a 9 year old girl etc" and the Islamic man was rife with anger at her. The reason is because when you come into a free and open society, you must accept everything that comes with it. Including ridicule of what you hold sacred. I hold things sacred too, but people openly mock them. Muslims are not unique.
You are right Muslims aren't unique. At the end of the day you can do whatever you want and no matter what there is nothing I can do to deter you in any way shape or form. I would prefer if you didn't but I can't and won't do anything about it. So if I hadn't made it clear before, I am not suggesting Islam should be put on a platform or protected by law moreso than any other entity or group or what have you.
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On July 16 2016 08:30 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 07:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On July 16 2016 07:13 SiroKO wrote:
I was jogging there last saturday...
What a tragedy.
Let there be no bullshit slogan such as "Je suis Nice" this time.
Nor lies about the "true nature of Islam".
Tragedy after tragedy, we, the French people, are starting to toughen up.
We are now getting more worried about our survival as a nation than about all the usual PC bullshits.
This is a great sign of vitality emerging out of chaos.
Commiseration today, tomorrow retaliation. How do you retaliate? It's easy to say that, but what do you do? pretty simple, you extend the state of emergency for 3 months, you say you're going to do everything in your power even if you can't, and you don't address the real problem as usual and don't forget the #jesuisnice
You vote Le Pen at the first occasion too, probably.
We're fucked.
Edit: I'm not even inherently disagreeing with SiroKO. These events tend to wake something bellicose in me too. But it just quickly dies down when I realize that there's not much we can do. I'm thinking of maybe taking a job in intelligence, but France's agencies in their wisdom and inertia actually don't hire much for what they should hire.
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On July 16 2016 11:44 acker wrote:
I wonder to what extent this will embolden Le Pen and co. Some of the footage out there is...graphic. I'd probably be out for blood if I lived in France.
Goodness knows what this means for UK Politics as well.
I've come to learn after the Bataclan : watch the TV one or two min maximum to get the info, after that surf the web and that's it. I'm way less stressed out by the terrorist attack than after the bataclan thanks to it.
Watching dead bodies is not good for the soul.
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Just found out that a dear friend of mine of French nationality that I used to share a flat in Amsterdam during my college studies was killed in the terrorist attack. I'm too angry and sad at the moment to make any rational comment...
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On July 16 2016 18:39 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 11:44 acker wrote:
I wonder to what extent this will embolden Le Pen and co. Some of the footage out there is...graphic. I'd probably be out for blood if I lived in France.
Goodness knows what this means for UK Politics as well. I've come to learn after the Bataclan : watch the TV one or two min maximum to get the info, after that surf the web and that's it. I'm way less stressed out by the terrorist attack than after the bataclan thanks to it. Watching dead bodies is not good for the soul.
didn't watched the tv once for a while, not even needed actually
i'm glad i avoided france 2 bullshit that night
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Turns out ISIS claim it is responsible for this attack in Nice and, apparently, it never claimed such thing in an opportunistic manner - they always had some kind of link with the perpetrator until now.
On July 16 2016 19:09 FreakyDroid wrote:
Just found out that a dear friend of mine of French nationality that I used to share a flat in Amsterdam during my college studies was killed in the terrorist attack. I'm too angry and sad at the moment to make any rational comment...
My sincere condoleance man.
On July 16 2016 19:12 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 18:39 WhiteDog wrote:On July 16 2016 11:44 acker wrote:
I wonder to what extent this will embolden Le Pen and co. Some of the footage out there is...graphic. I'd probably be out for blood if I lived in France.
Goodness knows what this means for UK Politics as well. I've come to learn after the Bataclan : watch the TV one or two min maximum to get the info, after that surf the web and that's it. I'm way less stressed out by the terrorist attack than after the bataclan thanks to it. Watching dead bodies is not good for the soul. didn't watched the tv once for a while, not even needed actually i'm glad i avoided france 2 bullshit that night
Yeah. Even wikileaks showed videos of dead people on the floor apparently. Obscene times.
And like I said, it's not nice to have people literally question your French identity if you're Muslim. Even if it's raised as a postulate to be discussed it already legitimizes hate mongers who seek to divide others.
I disagree. If you are a french, or if you are part of any occidental country, you have to consider practicing your religion in a manner that is accepted by the population ; which is privatly, with respect towards those who do not wish to be muslim and without any kind of desire to impose religious laws. Freedom have limits.
But again, this attack does not at all sound like an islamic attack. It's the act of a weak, stupid man who abused his wife, who got into prison for abusing a random guy. A violent and stupid man, who maybe should not have been on french soil considering he was not french and has passed a time in prison. Should we consider revoking a migrant's right to stay on french soil after committing crimes ?
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This attack reminded me again of 2006 Mumbai train blasts where I lost a family member . The situation is kinda different but I can feel what people of France are feeling atm who lost their dear ones .. these kinda news make me sad for days just reminding me of those blasts
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On July 16 2016 19:09 FreakyDroid wrote:
Just found out that a dear friend of mine of French nationality that I used to share a flat in Amsterdam during my college studies was killed in the terrorist attack. I'm too angry and sad at the moment to make any rational comment...
condoleances 
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Guys, some news!
Apparently, Daesh claimed the attack. This is a confirmed terror attack.
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EPT
