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Once again, as this is a sensitive topic and one that can cause a lot of unnecessary things to be said in the heat of the moment, be VERY careful about what you post. Think twice before actually stating something and please be considerate of anyone who may feel involved or affected. |
Except many of the terrorists have money. They have what they want. What they need. Many are highly educated, often engineers or students of engineering. This isn't about addressing social inequality. Social inequality will always exist. Because some people are smart, some people are stupid, some people get a shit life for being immature cunts, and some people deserve a great life for being awesome cunts. There's never been a system of government to solve social inequality, nor should there be. Even the poorest in France are probably fed three times a day except in rare cases of severe mental health problems.
+ Show Spoiler +
Currently there's a bomb scare in the airport of Nice. They've evacuated people for now. I expect it to be just a bag left behind and people being on high alert for now though.
All this addressing social inequalities is not what did this. It has very little to do with this. It's simply the effects of smashing together cultures and peoples in a multicultural society. "Diversity is our strength!" Most people will get along peacefully. But there will always be men that think their race should lead, their way of politics should lead, their way of religion should lead, and conspiracy theories form of why they are not the 'master race'. Most people just get on with their day and live life and enjoy it the best they can. But there will always be men who draw others to them and want to make a statement.
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On July 15 2016 22:11 aXa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 21:58 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 20:51 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 09:02 Chewbacca. wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but is there some political reason as to why it seems like so many of these attacks occur in France and not other European nations? Has France done more to "wrong" these people than other nations? Are they accepting many more immigrants? Not a lof of people are talking about this in this way, but here is my analysis. France, despite its ideal for equality and social progress, is very much a segregated country, and this is my opinion the very reason why we are seeing so much attacks happening on France's soil. Of course, France's involvement in Africa and in the middle east is also a factor, but that's not what I want to talk about today. For a bit of context, I want to talk about the two major immigration waves in France modern history: -The first, from 1945 to 1970, mostly came from other european countries (Polish, Portuguese, Italians ...). This was during a period of huge prosperity and social progress, and the wealth created was more even shared across all of society. Integration was not easy, despite the fact that most immigrants were caucasian and catholics. It was however very much possible and overall, the outcome was positive. -The second wave, from 1970 onwards, came mostly from North Africa and happened during an economic downturn (1973 oil shock) and after a very chaotic end to France's colonial past (End of the Algerian war in 1962). With the latent racism and the poor economic conditions, a segregation settled in France. And the worst part about it is that no one is willing to acknowledge or even talk about it. If you look at France today, the poorest neighbourhood can be entirely comprised of immigrants, with huge unemployment rate, poor access to education, harsh and various discriminations and so on. These are real ghettos, and those ghettos are fertile ground for violence, trafficking, and terrorism. Now I will use a Game of Thrones analogy to explain my point (spoiler alert) This economic and social disparity in France is like the underground of the Sept of Baelor filled with wildfire barrels. Radical islam ideology is the spark setting the whole thing ablaze. Don't kid yourself, most of the terrorism in France is homegrown. Now, if you were to try to prevent the Sept of Baelor to blow up, what would you do ? Would you just keep on eye on the wildfire and make sure no spark would ever come close to it? Or would you try to remove the wildfire in the first place ? My opinion is that we need to focus on fixing our social inequalities and discriminations plaguing or society. This is the only way to make the wildfire disappears. People will less likely blow themselves up if they have wealth, feel accepted, have a job, a family and a place in society. That is the real long term solution to terrorism, and pretty much everything else, including climate change and the debt crisis. Right now, inequalities are so high that it ressembles the pre-WW1 period. Things can only go worse if it continues like this. The problem is that your vision does not stand to actual fact. You talk about segregation and poverty, inequalities, but by all measures those are less important in France than in most countries. What you call segregated areas are not segregated in the american way for exemple, because public infrastructures and public investment are nothing alike. There are cultural problems that one must tackle to understand the terror attack - and by cultural I do not mean the culture of islam or whatever, but France's own culture and history. May I add one OBVIOUS thing, that people seems to misunderstand constantly : poverty and inequality does not force people into driving a truck and blindly killing innocent people. In no countries, at no point of history, have we seen anything similar : class warfare can be brutal, from time to time, but at which point can we explain killing 83 completly innocent citizens by inequalities I wonder. The cause is much more profound than inequality, it has a lot to do with morals and value. Inequality and poverty does not force people into anything, but it creates weaknesses in their life. These weaknesses can lead to different terrible things. A black young man in the US might start using drugs or join a gang. A muslim living in France's poorest banlieue might one day be influenced by dangerous people and become a terrorist. My point is that if you want to starve off terrorist or criminal organisations from recruiting young disenfranchised people, you should focus on creating opportunity for them. In the case of France, we have the largest muslim community in Europe, and integration is not happening, which makes the probability of someone actually being influenced by radical ideologies much higher.
Well he was employed which most likely means he was not in the lowest rung.Plus he was a dual citizen of Tunisia so we can assume the his economic situation was better in France than it would have been in Tunisia, otherwise he would have moved back.Really this constant apology mentality from western people towards Islamic maniacs that kill people needs to stop.
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On July 15 2016 22:20 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:11 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 21:58 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 20:51 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 09:02 Chewbacca. wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but is there some political reason as to why it seems like so many of these attacks occur in France and not other European nations? Has France done more to "wrong" these people than other nations? Are they accepting many more immigrants? Not a lof of people are talking about this in this way, but here is my analysis. France, despite its ideal for equality and social progress, is very much a segregated country, and this is my opinion the very reason why we are seeing so much attacks happening on France's soil. Of course, France's involvement in Africa and in the middle east is also a factor, but that's not what I want to talk about today. For a bit of context, I want to talk about the two major immigration waves in France modern history: -The first, from 1945 to 1970, mostly came from other european countries (Polish, Portuguese, Italians ...). This was during a period of huge prosperity and social progress, and the wealth created was more even shared across all of society. Integration was not easy, despite the fact that most immigrants were caucasian and catholics. It was however very much possible and overall, the outcome was positive. -The second wave, from 1970 onwards, came mostly from North Africa and happened during an economic downturn (1973 oil shock) and after a very chaotic end to France's colonial past (End of the Algerian war in 1962). With the latent racism and the poor economic conditions, a segregation settled in France. And the worst part about it is that no one is willing to acknowledge or even talk about it. If you look at France today, the poorest neighbourhood can be entirely comprised of immigrants, with huge unemployment rate, poor access to education, harsh and various discriminations and so on. These are real ghettos, and those ghettos are fertile ground for violence, trafficking, and terrorism. Now I will use a Game of Thrones analogy to explain my point (spoiler alert) This economic and social disparity in France is like the underground of the Sept of Baelor filled with wildfire barrels. Radical islam ideology is the spark setting the whole thing ablaze. Don't kid yourself, most of the terrorism in France is homegrown. Now, if you were to try to prevent the Sept of Baelor to blow up, what would you do ? Would you just keep on eye on the wildfire and make sure no spark would ever come close to it? Or would you try to remove the wildfire in the first place ? My opinion is that we need to focus on fixing our social inequalities and discriminations plaguing or society. This is the only way to make the wildfire disappears. People will less likely blow themselves up if they have wealth, feel accepted, have a job, a family and a place in society. That is the real long term solution to terrorism, and pretty much everything else, including climate change and the debt crisis. Right now, inequalities are so high that it ressembles the pre-WW1 period. Things can only go worse if it continues like this. The problem is that your vision does not stand to actual fact. You talk about segregation and poverty, inequalities, but by all measures those are less important in France than in most countries. What you call segregated areas are not segregated in the american way for exemple, because public infrastructures and public investment are nothing alike. There are cultural problems that one must tackle to understand the terror attack - and by cultural I do not mean the culture of islam or whatever, but France's own culture and history. May I add one OBVIOUS thing, that people seems to misunderstand constantly : poverty and inequality does not force people into driving a truck and blindly killing innocent people. In no countries, at no point of history, have we seen anything similar : class warfare can be brutal, from time to time, but at which point can we explain killing 83 completly innocent citizens by inequalities I wonder. The cause is much more profound than inequality, it has a lot to do with morals and value. Inequality and poverty does not force people into anything, but it creates weaknesses in their life. These weaknesses can lead to different terrible things. A black young man in the US might start using drugs or join a gang. A muslim living in France's poorest banlieue might one day be influenced by dangerous people and become a terrorist. My point is that if you want to starve off terrorist or criminal organisations from recruiting young disenfranchised people, you should focus on creating opportunity for them. In the case of France, we have the largest muslim community in Europe, and integration is not happening, which makes the probability of someone actually being influenced by radical ideologies much higher. Well he was employed which most likely means he was not in the lowest rung.Plus he was a dual citizen of Tunisia so we can assume the his economic situation was better in France than it would have been in Tunisia, otherwise he would have moved back.Really this constant apology mentality from western people towards Islamic maniacs needs to stop.
He was not a dual citizen, he was just tunisian.
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On July 15 2016 22:20 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:20 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 15 2016 22:11 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 21:58 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 20:51 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 09:02 Chewbacca. wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but is there some political reason as to why it seems like so many of these attacks occur in France and not other European nations? Has France done more to "wrong" these people than other nations? Are they accepting many more immigrants? Not a lof of people are talking about this in this way, but here is my analysis. France, despite its ideal for equality and social progress, is very much a segregated country, and this is my opinion the very reason why we are seeing so much attacks happening on France's soil. Of course, France's involvement in Africa and in the middle east is also a factor, but that's not what I want to talk about today. For a bit of context, I want to talk about the two major immigration waves in France modern history: -The first, from 1945 to 1970, mostly came from other european countries (Polish, Portuguese, Italians ...). This was during a period of huge prosperity and social progress, and the wealth created was more even shared across all of society. Integration was not easy, despite the fact that most immigrants were caucasian and catholics. It was however very much possible and overall, the outcome was positive. -The second wave, from 1970 onwards, came mostly from North Africa and happened during an economic downturn (1973 oil shock) and after a very chaotic end to France's colonial past (End of the Algerian war in 1962). With the latent racism and the poor economic conditions, a segregation settled in France. And the worst part about it is that no one is willing to acknowledge or even talk about it. If you look at France today, the poorest neighbourhood can be entirely comprised of immigrants, with huge unemployment rate, poor access to education, harsh and various discriminations and so on. These are real ghettos, and those ghettos are fertile ground for violence, trafficking, and terrorism. Now I will use a Game of Thrones analogy to explain my point (spoiler alert) This economic and social disparity in France is like the underground of the Sept of Baelor filled with wildfire barrels. Radical islam ideology is the spark setting the whole thing ablaze. Don't kid yourself, most of the terrorism in France is homegrown. Now, if you were to try to prevent the Sept of Baelor to blow up, what would you do ? Would you just keep on eye on the wildfire and make sure no spark would ever come close to it? Or would you try to remove the wildfire in the first place ? My opinion is that we need to focus on fixing our social inequalities and discriminations plaguing or society. This is the only way to make the wildfire disappears. People will less likely blow themselves up if they have wealth, feel accepted, have a job, a family and a place in society. That is the real long term solution to terrorism, and pretty much everything else, including climate change and the debt crisis. Right now, inequalities are so high that it ressembles the pre-WW1 period. Things can only go worse if it continues like this. The problem is that your vision does not stand to actual fact. You talk about segregation and poverty, inequalities, but by all measures those are less important in France than in most countries. What you call segregated areas are not segregated in the american way for exemple, because public infrastructures and public investment are nothing alike. There are cultural problems that one must tackle to understand the terror attack - and by cultural I do not mean the culture of islam or whatever, but France's own culture and history. May I add one OBVIOUS thing, that people seems to misunderstand constantly : poverty and inequality does not force people into driving a truck and blindly killing innocent people. In no countries, at no point of history, have we seen anything similar : class warfare can be brutal, from time to time, but at which point can we explain killing 83 completly innocent citizens by inequalities I wonder. The cause is much more profound than inequality, it has a lot to do with morals and value. Inequality and poverty does not force people into anything, but it creates weaknesses in their life. These weaknesses can lead to different terrible things. A black young man in the US might start using drugs or join a gang. A muslim living in France's poorest banlieue might one day be influenced by dangerous people and become a terrorist. My point is that if you want to starve off terrorist or criminal organisations from recruiting young disenfranchised people, you should focus on creating opportunity for them. In the case of France, we have the largest muslim community in Europe, and integration is not happening, which makes the probability of someone actually being influenced by radical ideologies much higher. Well he was employed which most likely means he was not in the lowest rung.Plus he was a dual citizen of Tunisia so we can assume the his economic situation was better in France than it would have been in Tunisia, otherwise he would have moved back.Really this constant apology mentality from western people towards Islamic maniacs needs to stop. He was not a dual citizen, he was just tunisian.
This is what they said over here, dual nationality - source : Reuters.May have been early reports later disproven.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/nice-terror-attack-driver-said-to-be-of-tunisian-background-local-media-20160715-gq6gbl.html
Police had earlier found identity papers, in the cab of the truck, that belonged to a 30 or 31-year-old man with dual French-Tunisian citizenship, according to Reuters. He was born in 1985.
Bouhlel was reportedly known to police for violence and use of weapons, but had not previously been linked with terrorism. He was not on the watch list of French intelligence services.
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On July 15 2016 22:20 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:11 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 21:58 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 20:51 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 09:02 Chewbacca. wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but is there some political reason as to why it seems like so many of these attacks occur in France and not other European nations? Has France done more to "wrong" these people than other nations? Are they accepting many more immigrants? Not a lof of people are talking about this in this way, but here is my analysis. France, despite its ideal for equality and social progress, is very much a segregated country, and this is my opinion the very reason why we are seeing so much attacks happening on France's soil. Of course, France's involvement in Africa and in the middle east is also a factor, but that's not what I want to talk about today. For a bit of context, I want to talk about the two major immigration waves in France modern history: -The first, from 1945 to 1970, mostly came from other european countries (Polish, Portuguese, Italians ...). This was during a period of huge prosperity and social progress, and the wealth created was more even shared across all of society. Integration was not easy, despite the fact that most immigrants were caucasian and catholics. It was however very much possible and overall, the outcome was positive. -The second wave, from 1970 onwards, came mostly from North Africa and happened during an economic downturn (1973 oil shock) and after a very chaotic end to France's colonial past (End of the Algerian war in 1962). With the latent racism and the poor economic conditions, a segregation settled in France. And the worst part about it is that no one is willing to acknowledge or even talk about it. If you look at France today, the poorest neighbourhood can be entirely comprised of immigrants, with huge unemployment rate, poor access to education, harsh and various discriminations and so on. These are real ghettos, and those ghettos are fertile ground for violence, trafficking, and terrorism. Now I will use a Game of Thrones analogy to explain my point (spoiler alert) This economic and social disparity in France is like the underground of the Sept of Baelor filled with wildfire barrels. Radical islam ideology is the spark setting the whole thing ablaze. Don't kid yourself, most of the terrorism in France is homegrown. Now, if you were to try to prevent the Sept of Baelor to blow up, what would you do ? Would you just keep on eye on the wildfire and make sure no spark would ever come close to it? Or would you try to remove the wildfire in the first place ? My opinion is that we need to focus on fixing our social inequalities and discriminations plaguing or society. This is the only way to make the wildfire disappears. People will less likely blow themselves up if they have wealth, feel accepted, have a job, a family and a place in society. That is the real long term solution to terrorism, and pretty much everything else, including climate change and the debt crisis. Right now, inequalities are so high that it ressembles the pre-WW1 period. Things can only go worse if it continues like this. The problem is that your vision does not stand to actual fact. You talk about segregation and poverty, inequalities, but by all measures those are less important in France than in most countries. What you call segregated areas are not segregated in the american way for exemple, because public infrastructures and public investment are nothing alike. There are cultural problems that one must tackle to understand the terror attack - and by cultural I do not mean the culture of islam or whatever, but France's own culture and history. May I add one OBVIOUS thing, that people seems to misunderstand constantly : poverty and inequality does not force people into driving a truck and blindly killing innocent people. In no countries, at no point of history, have we seen anything similar : class warfare can be brutal, from time to time, but at which point can we explain killing 83 completly innocent citizens by inequalities I wonder. The cause is much more profound than inequality, it has a lot to do with morals and value. Inequality and poverty does not force people into anything, but it creates weaknesses in their life. These weaknesses can lead to different terrible things. A black young man in the US might start using drugs or join a gang. A muslim living in France's poorest banlieue might one day be influenced by dangerous people and become a terrorist. My point is that if you want to starve off terrorist or criminal organisations from recruiting young disenfranchised people, you should focus on creating opportunity for them. In the case of France, we have the largest muslim community in Europe, and integration is not happening, which makes the probability of someone actually being influenced by radical ideologies much higher. Well he was employed which most likely means he was not in the lowest rung.Plus he was a dual citizen of Tunisia so we can assume the his economic situation was better in France than it would have been in Tunisia, otherwise he would have moved back.Really this constant apology mentality from western people towards Islamic maniacs that kill people needs to stop.Stockholm syndrome on steroids.
To be clear, I'm not trying to give anyone excuses for their actions. But if we refuse to explain and acknowledge all factors, then we will never find a solution. Inequalities, poverties, discrimination against a group of people for their skin tone, their origins, their religion, will lead to wars, violence, criminality and yes, terrorism. Blaming only religion or cultural differences,or trying to bomb the problem off the face of the earth, will never solve anything.
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On July 15 2016 22:23 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:20 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 22:20 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 15 2016 22:11 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 21:58 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 20:51 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 09:02 Chewbacca. wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but is there some political reason as to why it seems like so many of these attacks occur in France and not other European nations? Has France done more to "wrong" these people than other nations? Are they accepting many more immigrants? Not a lof of people are talking about this in this way, but here is my analysis. France, despite its ideal for equality and social progress, is very much a segregated country, and this is my opinion the very reason why we are seeing so much attacks happening on France's soil. Of course, France's involvement in Africa and in the middle east is also a factor, but that's not what I want to talk about today. For a bit of context, I want to talk about the two major immigration waves in France modern history: -The first, from 1945 to 1970, mostly came from other european countries (Polish, Portuguese, Italians ...). This was during a period of huge prosperity and social progress, and the wealth created was more even shared across all of society. Integration was not easy, despite the fact that most immigrants were caucasian and catholics. It was however very much possible and overall, the outcome was positive. -The second wave, from 1970 onwards, came mostly from North Africa and happened during an economic downturn (1973 oil shock) and after a very chaotic end to France's colonial past (End of the Algerian war in 1962). With the latent racism and the poor economic conditions, a segregation settled in France. And the worst part about it is that no one is willing to acknowledge or even talk about it. If you look at France today, the poorest neighbourhood can be entirely comprised of immigrants, with huge unemployment rate, poor access to education, harsh and various discriminations and so on. These are real ghettos, and those ghettos are fertile ground for violence, trafficking, and terrorism. Now I will use a Game of Thrones analogy to explain my point (spoiler alert) This economic and social disparity in France is like the underground of the Sept of Baelor filled with wildfire barrels. Radical islam ideology is the spark setting the whole thing ablaze. Don't kid yourself, most of the terrorism in France is homegrown. Now, if you were to try to prevent the Sept of Baelor to blow up, what would you do ? Would you just keep on eye on the wildfire and make sure no spark would ever come close to it? Or would you try to remove the wildfire in the first place ? My opinion is that we need to focus on fixing our social inequalities and discriminations plaguing or society. This is the only way to make the wildfire disappears. People will less likely blow themselves up if they have wealth, feel accepted, have a job, a family and a place in society. That is the real long term solution to terrorism, and pretty much everything else, including climate change and the debt crisis. Right now, inequalities are so high that it ressembles the pre-WW1 period. Things can only go worse if it continues like this. The problem is that your vision does not stand to actual fact. You talk about segregation and poverty, inequalities, but by all measures those are less important in France than in most countries. What you call segregated areas are not segregated in the american way for exemple, because public infrastructures and public investment are nothing alike. There are cultural problems that one must tackle to understand the terror attack - and by cultural I do not mean the culture of islam or whatever, but France's own culture and history. May I add one OBVIOUS thing, that people seems to misunderstand constantly : poverty and inequality does not force people into driving a truck and blindly killing innocent people. In no countries, at no point of history, have we seen anything similar : class warfare can be brutal, from time to time, but at which point can we explain killing 83 completly innocent citizens by inequalities I wonder. The cause is much more profound than inequality, it has a lot to do with morals and value. Inequality and poverty does not force people into anything, but it creates weaknesses in their life. These weaknesses can lead to different terrible things. A black young man in the US might start using drugs or join a gang. A muslim living in France's poorest banlieue might one day be influenced by dangerous people and become a terrorist. My point is that if you want to starve off terrorist or criminal organisations from recruiting young disenfranchised people, you should focus on creating opportunity for them. In the case of France, we have the largest muslim community in Europe, and integration is not happening, which makes the probability of someone actually being influenced by radical ideologies much higher. Well he was employed which most likely means he was not in the lowest rung.Plus he was a dual citizen of Tunisia so we can assume the his economic situation was better in France than it would have been in Tunisia, otherwise he would have moved back.Really this constant apology mentality from western people towards Islamic maniacs needs to stop. He was not a dual citizen, he was just tunisian. This is what they said over here, dual nationality - source : Reuters.May have been early reports later disproven. http://www.smh.com.au/world/nice-terror-attack-driver-said-to-be-of-tunisian-background-local-media-20160715-gq6gbl.htmlShow nested quote +Police had earlier found identity papers, in the cab of the truck, that belonged to a 30 or 31-year-old man with dual French-Tunisian citizenship, according to Reuters. He was born in 1985.
Bouhlel was reportedly known to police for violence and use of weapons, but had not previously been linked with terrorism. He was not on the watch list of French intelligence services.
Yeah I just heard it was a mistake, anyway it does change much - he was living in France.
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On July 15 2016 22:15 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:11 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 21:58 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 20:51 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 09:02 Chewbacca. wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but is there some political reason as to why it seems like so many of these attacks occur in France and not other European nations? Has France done more to "wrong" these people than other nations? Are they accepting many more immigrants? Not a lof of people are talking about this in this way, but here is my analysis. France, despite its ideal for equality and social progress, is very much a segregated country, and this is my opinion the very reason why we are seeing so much attacks happening on France's soil. Of course, France's involvement in Africa and in the middle east is also a factor, but that's not what I want to talk about today. For a bit of context, I want to talk about the two major immigration waves in France modern history: -The first, from 1945 to 1970, mostly came from other european countries (Polish, Portuguese, Italians ...). This was during a period of huge prosperity and social progress, and the wealth created was more even shared across all of society. Integration was not easy, despite the fact that most immigrants were caucasian and catholics. It was however very much possible and overall, the outcome was positive. -The second wave, from 1970 onwards, came mostly from North Africa and happened during an economic downturn (1973 oil shock) and after a very chaotic end to France's colonial past (End of the Algerian war in 1962). With the latent racism and the poor economic conditions, a segregation settled in France. And the worst part about it is that no one is willing to acknowledge or even talk about it. If you look at France today, the poorest neighbourhood can be entirely comprised of immigrants, with huge unemployment rate, poor access to education, harsh and various discriminations and so on. These are real ghettos, and those ghettos are fertile ground for violence, trafficking, and terrorism. Now I will use a Game of Thrones analogy to explain my point (spoiler alert) This economic and social disparity in France is like the underground of the Sept of Baelor filled with wildfire barrels. Radical islam ideology is the spark setting the whole thing ablaze. Don't kid yourself, most of the terrorism in France is homegrown. Now, if you were to try to prevent the Sept of Baelor to blow up, what would you do ? Would you just keep on eye on the wildfire and make sure no spark would ever come close to it? Or would you try to remove the wildfire in the first place ? My opinion is that we need to focus on fixing our social inequalities and discriminations plaguing or society. This is the only way to make the wildfire disappears. People will less likely blow themselves up if they have wealth, feel accepted, have a job, a family and a place in society. That is the real long term solution to terrorism, and pretty much everything else, including climate change and the debt crisis. Right now, inequalities are so high that it ressembles the pre-WW1 period. Things can only go worse if it continues like this. The problem is that your vision does not stand to actual fact. You talk about segregation and poverty, inequalities, but by all measures those are less important in France than in most countries. What you call segregated areas are not segregated in the american way for exemple, because public infrastructures and public investment are nothing alike. There are cultural problems that one must tackle to understand the terror attack - and by cultural I do not mean the culture of islam or whatever, but France's own culture and history. May I add one OBVIOUS thing, that people seems to misunderstand constantly : poverty and inequality does not force people into driving a truck and blindly killing innocent people. In no countries, at no point of history, have we seen anything similar : class warfare can be brutal, from time to time, but at which point can we explain killing 83 completly innocent citizens by inequalities I wonder. The cause is much more profound than inequality, it has a lot to do with morals and value. Inequality and poverty does not force people into anything, but it creates weaknesses in their life. These weaknesses can lead to different terrible things. A black young man in the US might start using drugs or join a gang. A muslim living in France's poorest banlieue might one day be influenced by dangerous people and become a terrorist. My point is that if you want to starve off terrorist or criminal organisations from recruiting young disenfranchised people, you should focus on creating opportunity for them. In the case of France, we have the largest muslim community in Europe, and integration is not happening, which makes the probability of someone actually being influenced by radical ideologies much higher. That's untrue, historically, socially. What create weakness is the absence of social link, of social cohesion. Poor people have been defined by their solidarity throughout history - "us" and "them" as written by Hoggart more than fifty years ago. More than that, those terrorist attacks are made by very diverses people, with very diverses background. Some comes from the small delinquency and can be described as poor people, for some it's just not the case : they are perfectly integrated economically and socially, sometimes with high degree and education. Your discourse is the kind of discourse I actually believed was right a few years ago. At this point, it's pretty clear the problem is more profound and can't be fixed with an increase in wages and a change in urbanism.
good point actually
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On July 15 2016 22:15 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:11 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 21:58 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 20:51 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 09:02 Chewbacca. wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but is there some political reason as to why it seems like so many of these attacks occur in France and not other European nations? Has France done more to "wrong" these people than other nations? Are they accepting many more immigrants? Not a lof of people are talking about this in this way, but here is my analysis. France, despite its ideal for equality and social progress, is very much a segregated country, and this is my opinion the very reason why we are seeing so much attacks happening on France's soil. Of course, France's involvement in Africa and in the middle east is also a factor, but that's not what I want to talk about today. For a bit of context, I want to talk about the two major immigration waves in France modern history: -The first, from 1945 to 1970, mostly came from other european countries (Polish, Portuguese, Italians ...). This was during a period of huge prosperity and social progress, and the wealth created was more even shared across all of society. Integration was not easy, despite the fact that most immigrants were caucasian and catholics. It was however very much possible and overall, the outcome was positive. -The second wave, from 1970 onwards, came mostly from North Africa and happened during an economic downturn (1973 oil shock) and after a very chaotic end to France's colonial past (End of the Algerian war in 1962). With the latent racism and the poor economic conditions, a segregation settled in France. And the worst part about it is that no one is willing to acknowledge or even talk about it. If you look at France today, the poorest neighbourhood can be entirely comprised of immigrants, with huge unemployment rate, poor access to education, harsh and various discriminations and so on. These are real ghettos, and those ghettos are fertile ground for violence, trafficking, and terrorism. Now I will use a Game of Thrones analogy to explain my point (spoiler alert) This economic and social disparity in France is like the underground of the Sept of Baelor filled with wildfire barrels. Radical islam ideology is the spark setting the whole thing ablaze. Don't kid yourself, most of the terrorism in France is homegrown. Now, if you were to try to prevent the Sept of Baelor to blow up, what would you do ? Would you just keep on eye on the wildfire and make sure no spark would ever come close to it? Or would you try to remove the wildfire in the first place ? My opinion is that we need to focus on fixing our social inequalities and discriminations plaguing or society. This is the only way to make the wildfire disappears. People will less likely blow themselves up if they have wealth, feel accepted, have a job, a family and a place in society. That is the real long term solution to terrorism, and pretty much everything else, including climate change and the debt crisis. Right now, inequalities are so high that it ressembles the pre-WW1 period. Things can only go worse if it continues like this. The problem is that your vision does not stand to actual fact. You talk about segregation and poverty, inequalities, but by all measures those are less important in France than in most countries. What you call segregated areas are not segregated in the american way for exemple, because public infrastructures and public investment are nothing alike. There are cultural problems that one must tackle to understand the terror attack - and by cultural I do not mean the culture of islam or whatever, but France's own culture and history. May I add one OBVIOUS thing, that people seems to misunderstand constantly : poverty and inequality does not force people into driving a truck and blindly killing innocent people. In no countries, at no point of history, have we seen anything similar : class warfare can be brutal, from time to time, but at which point can we explain killing 83 completly innocent citizens by inequalities I wonder. The cause is much more profound than inequality, it has a lot to do with morals and value. Inequality and poverty does not force people into anything, but it creates weaknesses in their life. These weaknesses can lead to different terrible things. A black young man in the US might start using drugs or join a gang. A muslim living in France's poorest banlieue might one day be influenced by dangerous people and become a terrorist. My point is that if you want to starve off terrorist or criminal organisations from recruiting young disenfranchised people, you should focus on creating opportunity for them. In the case of France, we have the largest muslim community in Europe, and integration is not happening, which makes the probability of someone actually being influenced by radical ideologies much higher. That's untrue, historically, socially. What create weakness is the absence of social link, of social cohesion. Poor people have been defined by their solidarity throughout history - "us" and "them" as written by Hoggart more than fifty years ago. More than that, those terrorist attacks are made by very diverses people, with very diverses background. Some comes from the small delinquency and can be described as poor people, for some it's just not the case : they are perfectly integrated economically and socially, sometimes with high degree and education. Your discourse is the kind of discourse I actually believed was right a few years ago. At this point, it's pretty clear the problem is more profound and can't be fixed with an increase in wages and a change in urbanism.
It would be a beginning at least, there will be no "social web" of the republic with a spatial segregation which helps the developpement of communautarism.. Moreover, I don't get your point on a specific cultural problem concerning France itself, what do you mean exaclly?
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I think that the "he was poor and discriminated against" is way too easy an excuse on this one.
Read this: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
Draw your own conclusions.
France spends a staggering 57% of its GDP a YEAR and a large portion of that goes to on social measures, equality, and whatnot. Only 3% goes to the military. That same 3% which is supposed to act as security against terrorists in the first place. That "the French are all racist and we segregate Muslims" is dumb as shit. It's just not true. It's also probably insulting, please go tell the victims of Nice that they were xenophobic and that they had it coming to them outright, because that's pretty much what you're saying (indirectly, true).
You people are trying to rationalize the actions of someone who just used a truck to commit mass murder. Stop, it's fucking stupid. Go read that link I left to the top and you see that there is NOTHING rational to be said about this.
Black people in the USA are marginalized way more than anyone in France is, they do not drive trucks through people during the 4th of July. There is a HUGE difference between crime committed due to segregation and inequality and terrorist acts. This was the latter.
Whitedog is one of the few posters on TLnet which I genuinely dislike but he's right on this one, sorry.
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Zurich15325 Posts
On July 15 2016 22:34 Incognoto wrote:
I think that the "he was poor and discriminated against" is way too easy an excuse on this one.
[...]
Whitedog is one of the few posters on TLnet which I genuinely dislike but he's right on this one, sorry.
Which still leaves us with the question: Why France?
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On July 15 2016 20:32 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 19:47 NukeD wrote:
In my opinion muslim community should really start speaking out against this shit and educate their fellow muslims who tend to be radicalized. I don't think we will ever be able to change anything as outsiders, it is a reform that islam needs from within and it's about time they started agresivelly condoning this behavior and preaching for tolerance to their brethren. I envision them as too passive on this. I assume you meant condemning here and not condoning....completely changes the meaning of the sentence there. You might not agree btw, but I have read a few articles about moderates "not doing enough" to speak out. I've also read that with each attack, religious leaders come out in force denouncing radical Islam and I'd at least think they should be vested when you consider the vast majority of attacks esp in the Middle East are against other Muslims. From the little I've read, (a lot of mainstream pubs have it, literally just Google it) the problem lies in either (regular or lay, not religious leaders) people not listening or being in a position to help or those speaking out getting drowned out esp in the mainstream media, and moderates standing up simply isn't getting reported as much. Like there are many a "Not in My Name" campaigns or similar on social media, so you know there is plenty of pushback, I just think the anti-radical movement in general is just constantly playing catchup and failing. Just my opinion.
Lol yeah thats what I meant!  Thanks for pointing it out, thats what happens when english is not your first language. I'll edit it out.
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On July 15 2016 22:27 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:15 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 22:11 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 21:58 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 20:51 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 09:02 Chewbacca. wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but is there some political reason as to why it seems like so many of these attacks occur in France and not other European nations? Has France done more to "wrong" these people than other nations? Are they accepting many more immigrants? Not a lof of people are talking about this in this way, but here is my analysis. France, despite its ideal for equality and social progress, is very much a segregated country, and this is my opinion the very reason why we are seeing so much attacks happening on France's soil. Of course, France's involvement in Africa and in the middle east is also a factor, but that's not what I want to talk about today. For a bit of context, I want to talk about the two major immigration waves in France modern history: -The first, from 1945 to 1970, mostly came from other european countries (Polish, Portuguese, Italians ...). This was during a period of huge prosperity and social progress, and the wealth created was more even shared across all of society. Integration was not easy, despite the fact that most immigrants were caucasian and catholics. It was however very much possible and overall, the outcome was positive. -The second wave, from 1970 onwards, came mostly from North Africa and happened during an economic downturn (1973 oil shock) and after a very chaotic end to France's colonial past (End of the Algerian war in 1962). With the latent racism and the poor economic conditions, a segregation settled in France. And the worst part about it is that no one is willing to acknowledge or even talk about it. If you look at France today, the poorest neighbourhood can be entirely comprised of immigrants, with huge unemployment rate, poor access to education, harsh and various discriminations and so on. These are real ghettos, and those ghettos are fertile ground for violence, trafficking, and terrorism. Now I will use a Game of Thrones analogy to explain my point (spoiler alert) This economic and social disparity in France is like the underground of the Sept of Baelor filled with wildfire barrels. Radical islam ideology is the spark setting the whole thing ablaze. Don't kid yourself, most of the terrorism in France is homegrown. Now, if you were to try to prevent the Sept of Baelor to blow up, what would you do ? Would you just keep on eye on the wildfire and make sure no spark would ever come close to it? Or would you try to remove the wildfire in the first place ? My opinion is that we need to focus on fixing our social inequalities and discriminations plaguing or society. This is the only way to make the wildfire disappears. People will less likely blow themselves up if they have wealth, feel accepted, have a job, a family and a place in society. That is the real long term solution to terrorism, and pretty much everything else, including climate change and the debt crisis. Right now, inequalities are so high that it ressembles the pre-WW1 period. Things can only go worse if it continues like this. The problem is that your vision does not stand to actual fact. You talk about segregation and poverty, inequalities, but by all measures those are less important in France than in most countries. What you call segregated areas are not segregated in the american way for exemple, because public infrastructures and public investment are nothing alike. There are cultural problems that one must tackle to understand the terror attack - and by cultural I do not mean the culture of islam or whatever, but France's own culture and history. May I add one OBVIOUS thing, that people seems to misunderstand constantly : poverty and inequality does not force people into driving a truck and blindly killing innocent people. In no countries, at no point of history, have we seen anything similar : class warfare can be brutal, from time to time, but at which point can we explain killing 83 completly innocent citizens by inequalities I wonder. The cause is much more profound than inequality, it has a lot to do with morals and value. Inequality and poverty does not force people into anything, but it creates weaknesses in their life. These weaknesses can lead to different terrible things. A black young man in the US might start using drugs or join a gang. A muslim living in France's poorest banlieue might one day be influenced by dangerous people and become a terrorist. My point is that if you want to starve off terrorist or criminal organisations from recruiting young disenfranchised people, you should focus on creating opportunity for them. In the case of France, we have the largest muslim community in Europe, and integration is not happening, which makes the probability of someone actually being influenced by radical ideologies much higher. That's untrue, historically, socially. What create weakness is the absence of social link, of social cohesion. Poor people have been defined by their solidarity throughout history - "us" and "them" as written by Hoggart more than fifty years ago. More than that, those terrorist attacks are made by very diverses people, with very diverses background. Some comes from the small delinquency and can be described as poor people, for some it's just not the case : they are perfectly integrated economically and socially, sometimes with high degree and education. Your discourse is the kind of discourse I actually believed was right a few years ago. At this point, it's pretty clear the problem is more profound and can't be fixed with an increase in wages and a change in urbanism. It would be a beginning at least, there will be no "social web" of the republic with a spatial segregation which helps the developpement of communautarism.. Moreover, I don't get your point on a specific cultural problem concerning France itself, what do you mean exaclly?
Well, I don't know. If I had to give you an answer, I would insist on specific things, and to give you a good explanation I would have to go back in France history a bit, but to summary :
- The development of liberalism (and its effect on public policy, most notably with the end of things like the "amenagement du territoire" - the public management of the territory - which created the segregation you guys talk about) ;
- Unemployment more than poverty ;
- The end of the french communist party (that had a huge role in the social cohesion of poor neighborhoods) - I'm not a communist at all, I'm just acknowledging the role it played in french history ;
- The demonetization of the idea of patriotism / nationalism or, in the french language, of the idea of "republic" (through the action of both the national front, who stole most of the french national symbols and dirtied them, and the socialist party with Mitterand's stupid, and factually untrue, idea that nationalism is war);
- A massive migration that cames directly from an old colonized territory, after a brutal a vicious war (from both sides), and everything that goes with it.
Just saying, but the social web of the republic accept no segregation. I work as a teacher in Seine Saint Denis, I have many friends who teach in the hardest, poorest neighborhoods. The quality of the teachers, the public investments, the number of children per classes are the exact same in the entire territory (a bit less children per classes in the poorest neighborhoods) : that is nothing but the vestige of the idea of republic.
Whitedog is one of the few posters on TLnet which I genuinely dislike but he's right on this one, sorry.
lol
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On July 15 2016 22:36 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:34 Incognoto wrote:
I think that the "he was poor and discriminated against" is way too easy an excuse on this one.
[...]
Whitedog is one of the few posters on TLnet which I genuinely dislike but he's right on this one, sorry. Which still leaves us with the question: Why France?
My last post explaining my point of view, not interested in going into a flame war.
1) Not saying this explains every attack or this one in particular
2) If we have to look at the bigger picture and explain why France more than other european countries, then, from a statistical point of view:
- A larger base of people being segregated against socially and economically
- With a relevant culture group being the target of a radical ideology
- Plus France involvement in the Middle-East and Syria
Means higher chance of successful conversion to terrorism and lone-wolf situations on French soil.
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On July 15 2016 22:36 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:34 Incognoto wrote:
I think that the "he was poor and discriminated against" is way too easy an excuse on this one.
[...]
Whitedog is one of the few posters on TLnet which I genuinely dislike but he's right on this one, sorry. Which still leaves us with the question: Why France?
I would say it is because there is
1) a very strong muslim community with a not so easy integration caused by colonisation
2) and this is a very secular country with a very distant rapport toward religion, this is a heritage of 18th philosophers and the positivist culture of the republicans during the third republic, the first 30 years of this republic wa basically a fight between two culturals force in France: Catholcisme versus Republic and this was a struggle at every level, on the countryside, on the cities, between richs, poors, ext...
Then the weakned state of the republic with a disparition of social service which weaks the social link, gives a feeling of abandon and stuff like this.
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On July 15 2016 22:24 aXa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:20 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 15 2016 22:11 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 21:58 WhiteDog wrote:On July 15 2016 20:51 aXa wrote:On July 15 2016 09:02 Chewbacca. wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but is there some political reason as to why it seems like so many of these attacks occur in France and not other European nations? Has France done more to "wrong" these people than other nations? Are they accepting many more immigrants? Not a lof of people are talking about this in this way, but here is my analysis. France, despite its ideal for equality and social progress, is very much a segregated country, and this is my opinion the very reason why we are seeing so much attacks happening on France's soil. Of course, France's involvement in Africa and in the middle east is also a factor, but that's not what I want to talk about today. For a bit of context, I want to talk about the two major immigration waves in France modern history: -The first, from 1945 to 1970, mostly came from other european countries (Polish, Portuguese, Italians ...). This was during a period of huge prosperity and social progress, and the wealth created was more even shared across all of society. Integration was not easy, despite the fact that most immigrants were caucasian and catholics. It was however very much possible and overall, the outcome was positive. -The second wave, from 1970 onwards, came mostly from North Africa and happened during an economic downturn (1973 oil shock) and after a very chaotic end to France's colonial past (End of the Algerian war in 1962). With the latent racism and the poor economic conditions, a segregation settled in France. And the worst part about it is that no one is willing to acknowledge or even talk about it. If you look at France today, the poorest neighbourhood can be entirely comprised of immigrants, with huge unemployment rate, poor access to education, harsh and various discriminations and so on. These are real ghettos, and those ghettos are fertile ground for violence, trafficking, and terrorism. Now I will use a Game of Thrones analogy to explain my point (spoiler alert) This economic and social disparity in France is like the underground of the Sept of Baelor filled with wildfire barrels. Radical islam ideology is the spark setting the whole thing ablaze. Don't kid yourself, most of the terrorism in France is homegrown. Now, if you were to try to prevent the Sept of Baelor to blow up, what would you do ? Would you just keep on eye on the wildfire and make sure no spark would ever come close to it? Or would you try to remove the wildfire in the first place ? My opinion is that we need to focus on fixing our social inequalities and discriminations plaguing or society. This is the only way to make the wildfire disappears. People will less likely blow themselves up if they have wealth, feel accepted, have a job, a family and a place in society. That is the real long term solution to terrorism, and pretty much everything else, including climate change and the debt crisis. Right now, inequalities are so high that it ressembles the pre-WW1 period. Things can only go worse if it continues like this. The problem is that your vision does not stand to actual fact. You talk about segregation and poverty, inequalities, but by all measures those are less important in France than in most countries. What you call segregated areas are not segregated in the american way for exemple, because public infrastructures and public investment are nothing alike. There are cultural problems that one must tackle to understand the terror attack - and by cultural I do not mean the culture of islam or whatever, but France's own culture and history. May I add one OBVIOUS thing, that people seems to misunderstand constantly : poverty and inequality does not force people into driving a truck and blindly killing innocent people. In no countries, at no point of history, have we seen anything similar : class warfare can be brutal, from time to time, but at which point can we explain killing 83 completly innocent citizens by inequalities I wonder. The cause is much more profound than inequality, it has a lot to do with morals and value. Inequality and poverty does not force people into anything, but it creates weaknesses in their life. These weaknesses can lead to different terrible things. A black young man in the US might start using drugs or join a gang. A muslim living in France's poorest banlieue might one day be influenced by dangerous people and become a terrorist. My point is that if you want to starve off terrorist or criminal organisations from recruiting young disenfranchised people, you should focus on creating opportunity for them. In the case of France, we have the largest muslim community in Europe, and integration is not happening, which makes the probability of someone actually being influenced by radical ideologies much higher. Well he was employed which most likely means he was not in the lowest rung.Plus he was a dual citizen of Tunisia so we can assume the his economic situation was better in France than it would have been in Tunisia, otherwise he would have moved back.Really this constant apology mentality from western people towards Islamic maniacs that kill people needs to stop.Stockholm syndrome on steroids. To be clear, I'm not trying to give anyone excuses for their actions. But if we refuse to explain and acknowledge all factors, then we will never find a solution. Inequalities, poverties, discrimination against a group of people for their skin tone, their origins, their religion, will lead to wars, violence, criminality and yes, terrorism. Blaming only religion or cultural differences,or trying to bomb the problem off the face of the earth, will never solve anything.
Except you have the recent case of the islamists in Bangladesh who slaughtered Italians and Japanese amongst others after checking to see who were muslim or not. They were from the very upper echelons of their society- university educated and wealthy. What inequality, poverty and discrimination explains their actions? Is it so hard to concede that the ideology itself may be a large part of the problem and look at ways of stopping the promulgators of the ideology from spreading their message of hate and intolerance around the globe? Do you consider it racist to simply acknowledge that there is a strain of violent Islamism promoted by wealthy gulf state monarchs that is a large cause of this violence?
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The weird thing is, certain communities keep sticking together. Integration is a myth, perhaps a rarity at best. It's not because you see a Turk, Moroccan, Albanian or whatever nationality other than yours, shopping in your supermarket that this person is integrated.
Urban development and culture are a big problem in this where the group are partly forced by infrastructure and partly "forced" by culture. The latter is more of a group mentality: you come to a country where everything is completely foreign to you, it seems logical to want to stick around the people you share something with.
I'm pretty sure you can't draw a straight line from this to terrorism, culture clashes, radicalism, etc, but it's probably an instigating factor.
Why do cultures tend to stick together and why is it so difficult to actually get to a homogenous society in its multiculturalism instead of what we see now? Maybe it's just impossible, maybe it needs several generations, maybe it takes a completely different approach. Whatever it is, it's poorly understood and entire communities are paying a steep price for it.
Also: geopolitical strategy of the West has definitely been an instigating factor in the past that kept being propagated as an easy way to target Western civilization.
Distinctions need to be made between terrorist attacks; why did they commit these acts? Political reasons (countermovement to geopolitical involvement); religious reasons (apply sharia law, indoctrination of IS -which is probably still a relic of the geopolitical first countermove in Al Qaeda etc, but has somewhere devolved into behead everyone that isn't like us-); mental stability issues (people snapping because reasons I don't know). There are probably more distinctions, but they should be treated as such if you want to deconstruct terrorism and the motivations behind the acts if you want to start to combat it.
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Western Europe and its people need to understand that we have a big problem with radical islamists. We need to get rid of all those North Africans who commit crimes asap and much easier. This will not only help everyone but will also benefit immigrants who obey the rules/law. I guess I have picked up a lot of negative sentiments and honestly, I'd rather let in 5 million Asians than 1 million from North Africa.
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Keep in mind there are multiple terrorist attempts in other European country's every year, they have just been foiled by the intelligence services.
Britain for example has stopped at least 3 major terrorist attacks per year since 7/7, more recently "the poppy day killer"
If any of these attacks were successful we wouldn't be asking the question "why France"
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, security in France could be one of the issue's.
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On July 15 2016 22:56 Reaps wrote:
Keep in mind there are multiple terrorist attempts in other European country's every year, they have just been foiled by the intelligence services.
Britain for example has stopped at least 3 major terrorist attacks per year since 7/7, more recently "the poppy day killer"
If any of these attacks were successful we wouldn't be asking the question "why France"
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, security in France could be one of the issue's.
I am sorry but this is not the problem. Our intelligence services could of course improve, but they have stopped many terrorists attack, and we have had an insane amount of security deployed everywhere for almost a year now.
Military patrols everywhere at every corner of the street, security guys checking your bag at the mall ... but that is useless, because we are facing a new brand of terrorism, where anyone desperate or angry enough can randomly take a knife, shoot or drive into a crowd in the name of a fucked up ideology.
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