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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 14 2015 12:13 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:08 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Just awful, today we are all french French, Americans, Lebanese, Indians, who cares. Whe are all humans. That's the only thing that matters to me. It append in my capital, so i'm really pissed off of course, but no loss is a bigger loss than anyone. We are all humans. Dot.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you, and everyone else that has been hit by this atrocity 
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That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong.
Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time.
That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading.
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On November 14 2015 12:06 CrayonPopChoa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:44 ahswtini wrote:On November 14 2015 11:42 Cricketer12 wrote:
This thread is proving the point I was making when I said it doesn't matter what moderates say/do. No matter what people will ONLY focus on the extremely small minority regardless of the fact 99.999% of us aren't doing this stuff. yes the 99.999% wont pick up a rifle and slaughter civilians. what do u think that number will drop to when u start asking how many people outright condemn these acts? I think everyone would agree that the people that carried out today's attacks are following some very misguided ideology. I also believe if the U.S. didnt bomb all the middle eastern countries for their oil, then they wouldn't have much need to hate us (the west) for our freedoms. Its a case of the chickens coming home to roost. Sometimes you just have to follow the trail of blood, and its a fact that the U.S. has spilled the most muslim blood on muslim soil in the past half-century. It dosent excuse any of the terrorist attacks, but at the same time maybe we need to wake up and ask ourselves are they really bombing us cause of our freedoms, or cause of our terrible foreign policy in that region, thats centered around rounding up their precious resources and bombing people back to the stone ages in the process. Would you expect some kid in Iraq who lost family or friends to condemn these attacks? You being in the U.S and I in Canada are really out of touch with the people over there. Its kind of like how we might look at a celebrity in Hollywood not being in touch with us. We are living privileged lives, we have safety, food, shelter, basic human needs that a lot of those people dont have. And a lot of that has to do with our countries bombing the fuck out of them. So I might get why some streets in muslims countries tomorrow will have kids burning french flags and shouting allah akbar. So you are right 99.999% of people wont condemn those attacks, but then again 99.9999% of americans dont condemn the wars in the middle east or the daily drone strikes.
This is patently false.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 14 2015 12:14 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong. Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time. That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading.
Read it first then interpret. You have no ground to stand on if you haven't read it in the first place.
Or should I go around giving you my opinion of Harry Potter without having ever read it?
+ Show Spoiler +Don't worry, I actually read it and loved it all except for the final book.
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On November 14 2015 12:13 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:13 Agathon wrote:On November 14 2015 12:08 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Just awful, today we are all french French, Americans, Lebanese, Indians, who cares. Whe are all humans. That's the only thing that matters to me. It append in my capital, so i'm really pissed off of course, but no loss is a bigger loss than anyone. We are all humans. Dot. Our thoughts and prayers are with you, and everyone else that has been hit by this atrocity
There's no god, so don't waste your time praying, but thanks anyway.
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On November 14 2015 12:15 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:14 m4ini wrote:That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong. Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time. That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading. Read it first then interpret. You have no ground to stand on if you haven't read it in the first place. Or should I go around giving you my opinion of Harry Potter without having ever read it? + Show Spoiler +Don't worry, I actually read it and loved it all except for the final book.
+ Show Spoiler +really? deathly hallows was good I just didnt like chamber, as long as you like Azkaban, because that book was amazing :D
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On November 14 2015 12:14 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong. Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time. That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading.
You cant win an arguement with a muslim because the Quran says and i quote "Those who reject our Signs are deaf and dumb,- in the midst of darkness profound: whom Allah willeth, He leaveth to wander: whom He willeth, He placeth on the way that is straight"
so basically if you dont believe in the quran you are dumb and blind and cant be convinced.
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On November 14 2015 12:11 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:06 ref4 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:58 Souma wrote:This is the problem with Westerners these days. They conflate "Islam" with "things certain Muslims believe in certain regions." It's equivalent to saying Christianity promotes McDonalds because America, a heavily Christian country, loves its McDonalds. Have you actually read the Quran? I'm not saying Islam doesn't promote some terrible things, but have you personally read the Quran and extrapolated the meaning behind its teachings? Every single one? Isn't Quran a pretty violent holy book? I mean it was written during a period of never-ending conflicts between tribes in the Arabian peninsula......it's pretty much a propaganda book. I mean there are of course violent passages in the Old and New Testaments but the Quran is filled with Muhammad's stories of conquest and rise of power in the middle east. Muhammad was a military leader first and foremost and prophet second. I don't know, I've only read like half of the Quran and I don't remember what was on it to be frank. I do know it promotes things that are outdated and should be frowned upon. That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
That's not true. Reading a holy book is something that you would require from a convert, it's not an action you demand before someone have an opinion. It's sufficient for many people, for whom Islam isn't a part of life, to study the conclusions of people who know more than they do about the matter, including the most faithful Muslims as well as the harshest, most skeptical critics and apostates.
On November 14 2015 12:11 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:08 SK.Testie wrote:On November 14 2015 11:58 Souma wrote:This is the problem with Westerners these days. They conflate "Islam" with "things certain Muslims believe in certain regions." It's equivalent to saying Christianity promotes McDonalds because America, a heavily Christian country, loves its McDonalds. Have you actually read the Quran? I'm not saying Islam doesn't promote some terrible things, but have you personally read the Quran and extrapolated the meaning behind its teachings? Every single one? I've attempted to read the Quran a few times. It's so full of shit and so stupid that to continue reading is an utter waste of time. A book that should in theory be perfect is full of holes and outright stupidity. I highly doubt wisdom came from warlords and merchants in the middle east in a time where information was complete shit compared to now. America is a secular country, with a large christian base. It is not a Christian country despite the fact that Fox News would have a collective cum shot that would reach all the way to Canada if that were the case. Religion is ignorance. And all of it should be met with scorn. It has a secular constitution, the separation of church and state. America, a secular country... If only it really were.
The USA is secular enough compared to some states, isn't it?
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It doesn't really matter what Islam really is when tens of thousands of people worldwide are being killed by other people who say God wanted me to do that. There's no other religion that has this going on right now at this scale though in the past pretty much all the other major religions have. Unless someone goes Germany 1945 and totally crushes and demoralizes jihadists it will take a long time of mental and verbal and yes physical struggle to reduce the amount of violence these ideologies cause. And no one goes Germany 1945 anymore. That would take a long time of struggle as well and all the areas of the world jihadism would have to be crushed in are kind of a lot bigger and more spread out than Nazism was. What the west is doing now isn't working, going all out on half the middle east is a terrible choice too. We need better politicians and generals and all those types than we have now that's for sure.
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On November 14 2015 12:14 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong. Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time. That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading.
the koran is extraordinary in that it makes the claim to be the final and perfect word of God though, which also poses the question of why God would recite this immaculate peace in a way in which it had to be interpreted abstractly or very much so in context for it to ever pass as moral guidance outside of the little disputed corner of the world where it was born
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I've attempted to read the Quran 3 times. Once as just an impressionable teenager as my big brown friend DS-Brave tried to convert me to Islam!
He gave me a link and while reading it, I said, something along the lines of "this is retarded you know". We had a debate on the topics that I thought were specifically retarded at the time and seeing as he couldn't give rational explanations I figured it was just horse shit.
I think there's a point when reading bad literature that you can say you've read enough to get the general idea. And I've heard it debated quite thoroughly. Literally every debate Christopher Hitchens has with a religious leader they sit there smiling to themselves but have no answers to his very poignant examinations.
User was temp banned for this post.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 14 2015 12:10 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:58 Souma wrote:This is the problem with Westerners these days. They conflate "Islam" with "things certain Muslims believe in certain regions." It's equivalent to saying Christianity promotes McDonalds because America, a heavily Christian country, loves its McDonalds. Have you actually read the Quran? I'm not saying Islam doesn't promote some terrible things, but have you personally read the Quran and extrapolated the meaning behind its teachings? Every single one? That's not a problem with westerners, that's the nature of the religion. We're talking about theocratic countries where over 95% of people are the same religion and have been for centuries. It's a religion that pervades daily life the way no other major religion does. The ones being disingenuous are the ones saying the religion is only my first-world interpretation of one holy book. That's the whole thing and nothing else "counts." So when Iran executes (Muslim) homosexuals on principle, they insist we can ignore that because people also do bad things without religion. Anti-semitism, misogyny, and homophobia are not just isolated regional quirks of the Muslim world. But if Pakistan elects a female prime minister, that's suddenly evidence of Islamic enlightenment, even though that isn't in the "book" either. So it's not that nothing else counts, it's that conveniently only the problems don't count. It doesn't mean people are calling the entire Muslim world jihadists or personally attacking somebody. People discuss Islam in this way merely to point out that problems still exist, problems which first and foremost hurt Muslims.
Sorry, thread is moving too fast.
I don't disagree with who you think is disingenuous. I'm not really defending the Quran or anything; it certainly has some things I don't agree with. My main point is that a lot of people in here and around the world make assumptions based on either misinformation or a lack of information, and that helps no one.
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Canada8990 Posts
If I can had my grain of salt to the discussion, there is actually many tradition of Sharia depending of the region if I am not wrong.
Also I personaly think that it is a lot more about inegality and residue of imperialisim than religion, ISIS ans other group say that occidental are the reason of all their problem, including syrian war, they say that "we" support Assad, kill children ect...
Religion is always a tool that people go too when they are in detress or by leader who want to gather people around their cause, hell Sadam Hussein was not very religious at all before things started to go to shit for him. I am not saying that some people don't have only religious reason, but for most people I belive that it is more a way for person leaving in a bad region of the world to canalyse their feeling of injustice.
But this is just a interpretation, other person can see the phenomenon in a other way
And also Islam is not the only religion at all who is the justification for violence : Liberation theology, christian millicia in Central African Republic, Hinduism terrorism in India, bouddist monk who lead violent nationalist manifestation in Cambodgia and Tayland, radical judaïsm in Israël, all religion is touch by this phenomenon.
I hope there is not to many gramatical errors.
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On November 14 2015 12:11 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:06 ref4 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:58 Souma wrote:This is the problem with Westerners these days. They conflate "Islam" with "things certain Muslims believe in certain regions." It's equivalent to saying Christianity promotes McDonalds because America, a heavily Christian country, loves its McDonalds. Have you actually read the Quran? I'm not saying Islam doesn't promote some terrible things, but have you personally read the Quran and extrapolated the meaning behind its teachings? Every single one? Isn't Quran a pretty violent holy book? I mean it was written during a period of never-ending conflicts between tribes in the Arabian peninsula......it's pretty much a propaganda book. I mean there are of course violent passages in the Old and New Testaments but the Quran is filled with Muhammad's stories of conquest and rise of power in the middle east. Muhammad was a military leader first and foremost and prophet second. I don't know, I've only read like half of the Quran and I don't remember what was on it to be frank. I do know it promotes things that are outdated and should be frowned upon. That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read. Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:08 SK.Testie wrote:On November 14 2015 11:58 Souma wrote:This is the problem with Westerners these days. They conflate "Islam" with "things certain Muslims believe in certain regions." It's equivalent to saying Christianity promotes McDonalds because America, a heavily Christian country, loves its McDonalds. Have you actually read the Quran? I'm not saying Islam doesn't promote some terrible things, but have you personally read the Quran and extrapolated the meaning behind its teachings? Every single one? I've attempted to read the Quran a few times. It's so full of shit and so stupid that to continue reading is an utter waste of time. A book that should in theory be perfect is full of holes and outright stupidity. I highly doubt wisdom came from warlords and merchants in the middle east in a time where information was complete shit compared to now. America is a secular country, with a large christian base. It is not a Christian country despite the fact that Fox News would have a collective cum shot that would reach all the way to Canada if that were the case. Religion is ignorance. And all of it should be met with scorn. It has a secular constitution, the separation of church and state. America, a secular country... If only it really were.
The holy books are very much like Lord of the Ring books: full of adventures, wars, conflicts, mystical creatures, angels, demons.
And of course, they're equally difficult to read because they don't do indentations and paragraphs.
And they also love to list off every. single. name. from. every. freaking family.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 14 2015 12:19 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:11 Souma wrote:On November 14 2015 12:06 ref4 wrote:On November 14 2015 11:58 Souma wrote:This is the problem with Westerners these days. They conflate "Islam" with "things certain Muslims believe in certain regions." It's equivalent to saying Christianity promotes McDonalds because America, a heavily Christian country, loves its McDonalds. Have you actually read the Quran? I'm not saying Islam doesn't promote some terrible things, but have you personally read the Quran and extrapolated the meaning behind its teachings? Every single one? Isn't Quran a pretty violent holy book? I mean it was written during a period of never-ending conflicts between tribes in the Arabian peninsula......it's pretty much a propaganda book. I mean there are of course violent passages in the Old and New Testaments but the Quran is filled with Muhammad's stories of conquest and rise of power in the middle east. Muhammad was a military leader first and foremost and prophet second. I don't know, I've only read like half of the Quran and I don't remember what was on it to be frank. I do know it promotes things that are outdated and should be frowned upon. That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read. That's not true. Reading a holy book is something that you would require from a convert, it's not an action you demand before someone have an opinion. It's sufficient for many people, for whom Islam isn't a part of life, to study the conclusions of people who know more than they do about the matter, including the most faithful Muslims as well as the harshest, most skeptical critics and apostates. Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:11 Souma wrote:On November 14 2015 12:08 SK.Testie wrote:On November 14 2015 11:58 Souma wrote:This is the problem with Westerners these days. They conflate "Islam" with "things certain Muslims believe in certain regions." It's equivalent to saying Christianity promotes McDonalds because America, a heavily Christian country, loves its McDonalds. Have you actually read the Quran? I'm not saying Islam doesn't promote some terrible things, but have you personally read the Quran and extrapolated the meaning behind its teachings? Every single one? I've attempted to read the Quran a few times. It's so full of shit and so stupid that to continue reading is an utter waste of time. A book that should in theory be perfect is full of holes and outright stupidity. I highly doubt wisdom came from warlords and merchants in the middle east in a time where information was complete shit compared to now. America is a secular country, with a large christian base. It is not a Christian country despite the fact that Fox News would have a collective cum shot that would reach all the way to Canada if that were the case. Religion is ignorance. And all of it should be met with scorn. It has a secular constitution, the separation of church and state. America, a secular country... If only it really were. The USA is secular enough compared to some states, isn't it?
I disagree. I don't believe you should base your opinion on something without ever having experienced it yourself. Holy book or not. It's why I have a bible on my book shelf, and just because I'm apatheistic doesn't mean I shouldn't read it if I want to criticize it thoroughly. In fact I should read it to gain a better understanding of what it is I don't believe in.
America is pretty damn Christian in many of its traditions. Sure it doesn't compare with an Islamic state, but we are not secular by any means.
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BBC:03:20 (UK time)
A source close to the investigation has told AFP that more than 200 people were wounded in the attacks, 80 seriously.
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On November 14 2015 12:15 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:14 m4ini wrote:That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong. Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time. That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading. Read it first then interpret. You have no ground to stand on if you haven't read it in the first place. Or should I go around giving you my opinion of Harry Potter without having ever read it? + Show Spoiler +Don't worry, I actually read it and loved it all except for the final book.
One doesn't need to read it, my point is: cricketeer says, the Islam doesn't promote X. He might be right. Random arabic person tells me: it does promote X. He is as right as cricketeer is (sorry, if the name is spelled wrong). Both interpret something that is highly interpretable differently. Who's judging who's right? You can't. If i read it now, i might get to the same conclusion as random arabic person. Who's right then?
It's up to interpretion. It's like having one of these ink-spill-pictures in school, one tells you "it's a butterfly", the other one says "a horsehead". It's neither, or both. Kinda hard to get my point across, but i hope you understand what i mean.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 14 2015 12:20 SK.Testie wrote:
I've attempted to read the Quran 3 times. Once as just an impressionable teenager as my big brown friend DS-Brave tried to convert me to Islam!
He gave me a link and while reading it, I said, something along the lines of "this is retarded you know". We had a debate on the topics that I thought were specifically retarded at the time and seeing as he couldn't give rational explanations I figured it was just horse shit.
I think there's a point when reading bad literature that you can say you've read enough to get the general idea. And I've heard it debated quite thoroughly. Literally every debate Christopher Hitchens has with a religious leader they sit there smiling to themselves but have no answers to his very poignant examinations.
My main issue with you posting those polls are, without having read the book in its entirety, can you say for sure that there are tenants in the Quran that explicitly promote those actions/beliefs?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 14 2015 12:25 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:15 Souma wrote:On November 14 2015 12:14 m4ini wrote:That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong. Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time. That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading. Read it first then interpret. You have no ground to stand on if you haven't read it in the first place. Or should I go around giving you my opinion of Harry Potter without having ever read it? + Show Spoiler +Don't worry, I actually read it and loved it all except for the final book. One doesn't need to read it, my point is: cricketeer says, the Islam doesn't promote X. He might be right. Random arabic person tells me: it does promote X. He is as right as cricketeer is (sorry, if the name is spelled wrong). Both interpret something that is highly interpretable differently. Who's judging who's right? You can't. If i read it now, i might get to the same conclusion as random arabic person. Who's right then? It's up to interpretion. It's like having one of these ink-spill-pictures in school, one tells you "it's a butterfly", the other one says "a horsehead". It's neither, or both. Kinda hard to get my point across, but i hope you understand what i mean.
Yes, you do need to read it. How can you possibly criticize ANYTHING without knowing what it actually is?
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On November 14 2015 12:25 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:15 Souma wrote:On November 14 2015 12:14 m4ini wrote:That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong. Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time. That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading. Read it first then interpret. You have no ground to stand on if you haven't read it in the first place. Or should I go around giving you my opinion of Harry Potter without having ever read it? + Show Spoiler +Don't worry, I actually read it and loved it all except for the final book. One doesn't need to read it, my point is: cricketeer says, the Islam doesn't promote X. He might be right. Random arabic person tells me: it does promote X. He is as right as cricketeer is (sorry, if the name is spelled wrong). Both interpret something that is highly interpretable differently. Who's judging who's right? You can't. If i read it now, i might get to the same conclusion as random arabic person. Who's right then? It's up to interpretion. It's like having one of these ink-spill-pictures in school, one tells you "it's a butterfly", the other one says "a horsehead". It's neither, or both. Kinda hard to get my point across, but i hope you understand what i mean.
I totally understand the point you are making the only problem is that the only two results that you can logically expect from this are A)no one can have any opinion on any aspect of any religion "because its open to interpretation" or B)all parties are left with nothing but to agree to disagree, and at the end of the day, in so very many of these debates thats what ends up happening. You continue to believe what you believe about Islam, and I the same.
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