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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 14 2015 12:39 Souma wrote: 'All opinions are formed on limited data' bull fucking shit.
If you tell me a movie is bad and you only watched the trailer, you lose any semblance of credibility and can go on your way to being an uninformed, ignorant asshat.
Would you say that you could judge the quality of a movie after watching half of it?
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In the light of the Paris attacks, I would like to emphasize, that a violent counter-attack is exactly what the terrorists want. If this is anything like 9/11, what they are hoping to do is to encourage the government to declare war on innocent people in the Middle East. Why? This makes the people view the West as evil and aggressive and encourages them to join their cause. I understand that it may be difficult to put aside emotions in a tragedy like this, but we must keep our decision-making clear and remember the mistakes that the US made in the last 15 years or so. Hopefully Europe does not fall into the same trap we did.
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On November 14 2015 12:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:33 BisuDagger wrote:Cricketer12, I just want to say I really respect the effort you are going through to post in this thread, share your view, and support your religion. That's all I wanted to say.  Seconded. Cricketer12 has been a lot more patient that I could ever be. how could I not be, being patient is one way I practice my faith
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 14 2015 12:40 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:39 Souma wrote: 'All opinions are formed on limited data' bull fucking shit.
If you tell me a movie is bad and you only watched the trailer, you lose any semblance of credibility and can go on your way to being an uninformed, ignorant asshat. Would you say that you could judge the quality of a movie after watching half of it? I say that I could judge the quality of the half that I watched, and I can make an educated guess that the second half may be bad/good too, but I cannot say that with absolutely certainty. There are plenty of movies and tv shows that start bad then end amazing and vice versa.
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On November 14 2015 12:06 CrayonPopChoa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 11:44 ahswtini wrote:On November 14 2015 11:42 Cricketer12 wrote: This thread is proving the point I was making when I said it doesn't matter what moderates say/do. No matter what people will ONLY focus on the extremely small minority regardless of the fact 99.999% of us aren't doing this stuff. yes the 99.999% wont pick up a rifle and slaughter civilians. what do u think that number will drop to when u start asking how many people outright condemn these acts? I think everyone would agree that the people that carried out today's attacks are following some very misguided ideology. I also believe if the U.S. didnt bomb all the middle eastern countries for their oil, then they wouldn't have much need to hate us (the west) for our freedoms. Its a case of the chickens coming home to roost. Sometimes you just have to follow the trail of blood, and its a fact that the U.S. has spilled the most muslim blood on muslim soil in the past half-century. It dosent excuse any of the terrorist attacks, but at the same time maybe we need to wake up and ask ourselves are they really bombing us cause of our freedoms, or cause of our terrible foreign policy in that region, thats centered around rounding up their precious resources and bombing people back to the stone ages in the process. Would you expect some kid in Iraq who lost family or friends to condemn these attacks? You being in the U.S and I in Canada are really out of touch with the people over there. Its kind of like how we might look at a celebrity in Hollywood not being in touch with us. We are living privileged lives, we have safety, food, shelter, basic human needs that a lot of those people dont have. And a lot of that has to do with our countries bombing the fuck out of them. So I might get why some streets in muslims countries tomorrow will have kids burning french flags and shouting allah akbar. So you are right 99.999% of people wont condemn those attacks, but then again 99.9999% of americans dont condemn the wars in the middle east or the daily drone strikes.
In France, there are some kind of racism, muslim populations are generally poorer than others, moreover, there are international problems such as Palestine, the colonization which feed hate and many intellectuals threat muslims as if there were children and not even citizens: in France, we have strong tradition of criticism of religion and can tell that Christians got mocked and criticized in very hardcore ways and it is still the case but for muslims, this is different and I don't think this is just because people feared the accusation of racism or intolerance, so, almost everyone considered them as différents, even the so-called no racism who are just some stupid paternalists. So, the causes are socials and economic. Moreover, some verses of the quran are violents and lead to an ideology which justifies these shits, we just can say "this a false interpretation" but still, many people shared this and I am pretty sure they read the book, you are just against this interpretation. But I guess you are religious too, otherwise you should have recognized the position of this book toward women and all the arbitrary shits tied with a Truth on the world. This ideology (because as a non-believer, I firstly consider relligion as ideology) is 14 centuries old, it was extremly efficient at the time and still has success in an extend but in our rational society, it simply should not exist. ah, and people should avoid the accusation of materialism though, I feel like art leads to a deep spirituality such as the extent of science and philisophy. But it needs some culture to be understood.
PS: Sorry for my grammar.
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On November 14 2015 12:41 Brutaxilos wrote: In the light of the Paris attacks, I would like to emphasize, that a violent counter-attack is exactly what the terrorists want. If this is anything like 9/11, what they are hoping to do is to encourage the government to declare war on innocent people in the Middle East. Why? This makes the people view the West as evil and aggressive and encourages them to join their cause. I understand that it may be difficult to put aside emotions in a tragedy like this, but we must keep our decision-making clear and remember the mistakes that the US made in the last 15 years or so. Hopefully Europe does not fall into the same trap we did.
François Hollande seems deterined to act though. He said as much:
But I suspect this is a very emotional answer. He went on the scene to the Bataclan very soon after it all happened, and what he saw was likely very raw.
I do think a violent answer will only serve to perpetuate the cycle. But we do need some sort of answer. This can't keep happening.
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On November 14 2015 12:36 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:34 Djzapz wrote:On November 14 2015 12:15 Souma wrote:On November 14 2015 12:14 m4ini wrote:That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong. Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time. That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading. Read it first then interpret. You have no ground to stand on if you haven't read it in the first place. Or should I go around giving you my opinion of Harry Potter without having ever read it? + Show Spoiler +Don't worry, I actually read it and loved it all except for the final book.  Souma, can you understand government if you haven't read every single law they passed? My point is, you can get some sense of an ideology even if you haven't read their scripture. I mean, I'd argue that Muslims are determined more so by their actions than by their holy scripture. And perhaps this should be made clear to you by what happened tonight. If you're willing to put that much weight on the Quran, then how the *fuck* do you explain that the people who did this were leaning on the Quran to justify their actions. Actions speak louder than words. The Quran is words, an ideology. The actions of the people who committed tonight's atrocious acts are real life. And so are the actions of all the Muslims who didn't do any bullshit tonight. So what's that obsession with the scriptures, scriptures don't fucking kill anyone. I don't need the scriptures to gain some understanding of Islam. In fact, the scriptures themselves are a LOT less interesting than the interpretations of them that can be made. The hundreds of different interpretations, Souma... So don't tell people to read the Quran or the Bible, because if they did, the next thing they'd be told is that they fucking read it wrong. If actions speak louder than words, then inaction speaks just as loud, and the moderates who don't actually commit atrocities should be the shining examples of Islam. End of story. I have no problem with moderates. Moderates are cool. But what about the implicit support of extremists by Islamist who are often wrongly described as "moderates" due to their lack of direct participation in terrorist acts.
What strikes me as insane though is your insistence on saying "end of story". Is it that simple? I wrote a little thing earlier, I was hesitant to post it, I'm a little drunk so it's probably a bit bad but I think I'll post it. I don't think "end of story" applies here. I think that this is a social and political issue just as complicated as anything else, that can be explored and understood with a staggering amount of depth, but the context doesn't allow for discussion or for critical thought.
This is copy pasted from a doc called Fuck.docx. + Show Spoiler +The realization, or the argument, that there is a fundamental problem with Islam shouldn’t automatically be about hate, it shouldn’t automatically be viewed as a statement which condemns all Muslims. The realization that there is a fundamental problem with Islam is no different from any other social problem that involved wildly different viewpoints and conceptions of what society is, what free speech is, the values that people have.
I’ll be the first to condemn what I perceive to be bigotry, and I’m not saying this because I feel like it’s necessary, I’m writing this down out of sheer necessity. There are these classifications of people who have managed to figure out some way to avoid all criticism by labeling their critics as bigots and racists. Now, I wouldn’t presume to think for you, or to speak for you, but I don’t believe myself to be a racist. I criticize everyone and everything, I criticize ideologies, religions, individuals, I criticize governments, organizations, lobbies, interest groups. I criticize Christians, I criticize atheists, and I criticize Muslims, too – who are not immune to criticism just because it’s a religion, or because it’s a minority and a religion.
And to further make my point, I do criticize everything. Christians for their lack of understanding for their lack of understanding of the notion of separation of church and state, Atheists (like myself) for their militant atheism, their condescending tone, their aggressive argumentative methods. I criticize Blizzard, I criticize the big oil companies for fucking our environment, I criticize the big environmental lobbies and interest groups for lying and for bringing false data to support the side of the argument that I believe in. Because I don't think that the people I agree with in an argument should lie to make a point.
If I have not managed to convince you that I'm interested in this debate for legitimate reasons that have nothing to do with bigotry and racism, I consider this debate to be completely impossible to have. But let me assure you that I would bring up the same points for any other form of social issue and to me the fact that it has to do with religion doesn't make it any different from any other ideology. The source of the beliefs doesn't interest me nearly as much as the outcome of those beliefs.
Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a religion which is not incompatible with peace, as evidenced by the majority of Muslims who live in western countries and who condemn the senseless violence that our countries have been subjected to in recent months and years. But it can easily be a violent religion. Much like Christianity, there are multiple interpretations of the holy scriptures, and fuck you if you think yours is the correct one. You don’t know shit and nor do I.
Nonetheless, Sam Harris argued that perhaps we’re misrepresenting what Muslims are about. We often speak in terms of extremists vs. moderates in the west, but in the middle lie Islamists, the people who perhaps act like moderates but implicitly (and sometimes even explicitly) support the extremist groups. The fact of the matter is, especially in non-western countries, there is LOUD and CLEAR support, by just the normal people there, for ISIS or in some cases for Al ’Qaeda. Not "extremists". Many of the more or less "normal" average folks condone to a varying extent the acts of terrorists in the West.
But the thing is, it’s difficult to say that without being accused of bigotry, which to an extent is understandable. These kinds of arguments are mobilized for nefarious reasons. I look at this « debate » as one that needs to be considered strategically. How can one attempt to explain that there is a disconnect between « reality » and the simplistic dichotomy that people have in their heads (where anyone who isn’t a terrorist is a moderate and everything is cool).
My concern is the following. Due to the fact that I can’t even properly legitimize my place in this conversation, because I feel like no matter what I say I’ll be lumped with bigots, and the same is true with everyone who’s put in my position, this debate is not taking place. The question cannot be discussed, it is dead, it cannot take place. And even if it did, it would naturally attract the worst people have to offer. It would attract hate, and the conversation would be undermined by it. But this is a topic that needs to be discussed like any other, by smart people (much smarter than myself). But it fucking isn’t. It’s quiet, because there is too much to lose. People don’t feel the need to verify whether the comments of a person are racist, they label the person and ask questions later.
In this era of political correctness, academics and intellectuals as well as politicians are muzzled by new norms of what is acceptable to discuss. The misrepresentation of the “women make 73% of what men make for every hour worked” is egregious, but if you point that out, even if you point out that wage disparity between the genders is a thing but the 73% figure is incorrect, you’ll get shunned, you’ll get accused of sexism. I agree that sexism is a problem, but I disagree with the lies that are being mobilized to support this position that I believe in. I agree that most Muslims living in the West are great people, but that doesn’t mean that there is no problem. Of the non-terrorists, there are many who, like I said, implicitly support the actions of extremists, and thus legitimize (in the minds of said extremists) the violent actions that are taken.
So why am I writing all this shit? I don’t know, I don’t know what to do with it. I’m no expert. This is my assessment of the situation, the sociological influence of Islam and Muslims on Western society. I don’t think it’s negligible, I think it must be discussed openly and not just behind closed doors like it is in security meetings in every country. Why can’t we? Why are we fucking blinded by the polarizing effects of this question? Why are the unreasonable opinions that patently take so much of the spectrum of this debate blinding the rest of us? Those of us who are able to see behind the veil that are the obvious conclusions and the obvious simple explanations shouldn’t deprive ourselves from a more enriching debate just because most of the people are stuck at the most basic first steps of the debate.
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On November 14 2015 12:39 Souma wrote: 'All opinions are formed on limited data' bull fucking shit.
If you tell me a movie is bad and you only watched the trailer, you lose any semblance of credibility and can go on your way to being an uninformed, ignorant asshat.
You're going to sit there with a straight face and say you can't tell certain movies are going to be dog meat from the trailer alone? Go watch a trailer for "The Room" on youtube, you can't ascertain that that movie is awful and any desire to further watch it is due to some sense of morbid curiosity, a wonder of just how bad it could possibly be?
People don't have time for perfect information about everything. You make decisions based on limited data all day every day.
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On November 14 2015 12:44 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:41 Brutaxilos wrote: In the light of the Paris attacks, I would like to emphasize, that a violent counter-attack is exactly what the terrorists want. If this is anything like 9/11, what they are hoping to do is to encourage the government to declare war on innocent people in the Middle East. Why? This makes the people view the West as evil and aggressive and encourages them to join their cause. I understand that it may be difficult to put aside emotions in a tragedy like this, but we must keep our decision-making clear and remember the mistakes that the US made in the last 15 years or so. Hopefully Europe does not fall into the same trap we did. François Hollande seems deterined to act though. He said as much: https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/665348285620723712But I suspect this is a very emotional answer. He went on the scene to the Bataclan very soon after it all happened, and what he saw was likely very raw. I do think a violent answer will only serve to perpetuate the cycle. But we do need some sort of answer. This can't keep happening.
Yeah.. I think he means "war against terrorism", not "literal" war. Might be wrong, but can't see france dispensing freedom somewhere by themselves.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 14 2015 12:45 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:39 Souma wrote: 'All opinions are formed on limited data' bull fucking shit.
If you tell me a movie is bad and you only watched the trailer, you lose any semblance of credibility and can go on your way to being an uninformed, ignorant asshat. You're going to sit there with a straight face and say you can't tell certain movies are going to be dog meat from the trailer alone? Go watch a trailer for "The Room" on youtube, you can't ascertain that that movie is awful and any desire to further watch it is due to some sense of morbid curiosity, a wonder of just how bad it could possibly be? People don't have time for perfect information about everything. You make decisions based on limited data all day every day. Just because a trailer is bad doesn't mean the movie will be bad.
And just because we do something everyday doesn't mean it's ideal nor right.
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answering violence with violence is a never ending cycle, hopefully the right decision will be made
what happened in Paris is horrifying
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On November 14 2015 12:44 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:41 Brutaxilos wrote: In the light of the Paris attacks, I would like to emphasize, that a violent counter-attack is exactly what the terrorists want. If this is anything like 9/11, what they are hoping to do is to encourage the government to declare war on innocent people in the Middle East. Why? This makes the people view the West as evil and aggressive and encourages them to join their cause. I understand that it may be difficult to put aside emotions in a tragedy like this, but we must keep our decision-making clear and remember the mistakes that the US made in the last 15 years or so. Hopefully Europe does not fall into the same trap we did. François Hollande seems deterined to act though. He said as much: https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/665348285620723712But I suspect this is a very emotional answer. He went on the scene to the Bataclan very soon after it all happened, and what he saw was likely very raw. I do think a violent answer will only serve to perpetuate the cycle. But we do need some sort of answer. This can't keep happening. I agree, and honestly I don't what this is but it isnt a violent response. Perhaps it is a loaded solution where one part of it is moderates potentially doing more (again I don't know what more would actually involve but anyway). I wish we could just exterminate every last one of this pathetic excuses of matter but that's not how life works. I think the first step is knowledge. Actually making sure people (moderates, non muslims, extremists, everyone) understand (which as we already discussed is extremely difficult to do due to the issue of interpretation).
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On November 14 2015 12:41 Brutaxilos wrote: In the light of the Paris attacks, I would like to emphasize, that a violent counter-attack is exactly what the terrorists want. If this is anything like 9/11, what they are hoping to do is to encourage the government to declare war on innocent people in the Middle East. Why? This makes the people view the West as evil and aggressive and encourages them to join their cause. I understand that it may be difficult to put aside emotions in a tragedy like this, but we must keep our decision-making clear and remember the mistakes that the US made in the last 15 years or so. Hopefully Europe does not fall into the same trap we did.
You're wrong, public opinion would want end the existence of Daesh as fast as possible... And I guess Marine Lepen and his xenophobe party will win in 2017.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 14 2015 12:44 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:36 Souma wrote:On November 14 2015 12:34 Djzapz wrote:On November 14 2015 12:15 Souma wrote:On November 14 2015 12:14 m4ini wrote:That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong. Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time. That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading. Read it first then interpret. You have no ground to stand on if you haven't read it in the first place. Or should I go around giving you my opinion of Harry Potter without having ever read it? + Show Spoiler +Don't worry, I actually read it and loved it all except for the final book.  Souma, can you understand government if you haven't read every single law they passed? My point is, you can get some sense of an ideology even if you haven't read their scripture. I mean, I'd argue that Muslims are determined more so by their actions than by their holy scripture. And perhaps this should be made clear to you by what happened tonight. If you're willing to put that much weight on the Quran, then how the *fuck* do you explain that the people who did this were leaning on the Quran to justify their actions. Actions speak louder than words. The Quran is words, an ideology. The actions of the people who committed tonight's atrocious acts are real life. And so are the actions of all the Muslims who didn't do any bullshit tonight. So what's that obsession with the scriptures, scriptures don't fucking kill anyone. I don't need the scriptures to gain some understanding of Islam. In fact, the scriptures themselves are a LOT less interesting than the interpretations of them that can be made. The hundreds of different interpretations, Souma... So don't tell people to read the Quran or the Bible, because if they did, the next thing they'd be told is that they fucking read it wrong. If actions speak louder than words, then inaction speaks just as loud, and the moderates who don't actually commit atrocities should be the shining examples of Islam. End of story. I have no problem with moderates. Moderates are cool. But what about the implicit support of extremists by Islamist who are often wrongly described as "moderates" due to their lack of direct participation in terrorist acts. What strikes me as insane though is your insistence on saying "end of story". Is it that simple? I wrote a little thing earlier, I was hesitant to post it, I'm a little drunk so it's probably a bit bad but I think I'll post it. I don't think "end of story" applies here. I think that this is a social and political issue just as complicated as anything else, that can be explored and understood with a staggering amount of depth, but the context doesn't allow for discussion or for critical thought. This is copy pasted from a doc called Fuck.docx. + Show Spoiler +The realization, or the argument, that there is a fundamental problem with Islam shouldn’t automatically be about hate, it shouldn’t automatically be viewed as a statement which condemns all Muslims. The realization that there is a fundamental problem with Islam is no different from any other social problem that involved wildly different viewpoints and conceptions of what society is, what free speech is, the values that people have.
I’ll be the first to condemn what I perceive to be bigotry, and I’m not saying this because I feel like it’s necessary, I’m writing this down out of sheer necessity. There are these classifications of people who have managed to figure out some way to avoid all criticism by labeling their critics as bigots and racists. Now, I wouldn’t presume to think for you, or to speak for you, but I don’t believe myself to be a racist. I criticize everyone and everything, I criticize ideologies, religions, individuals, I criticize governments, organizations, lobbies, interest groups. I criticize Christians, I criticize atheists, and I criticize Muslims, too – who are not immune to criticism just because it’s a religion, or because it’s a minority and a religion.
Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a religion which is not incompatible with peace, as evidenced by the majority of Muslims who live in western countries and who condemn the senseless violence that our countries have been subjected to in recent months and years. But it can easily be a violent religion. Much like Christianity, there are multiple interpretations of the holy scriptures, and fuck you if you think yours is the correct one. You don’t know shit and nor do I.
Nonetheless, Sam Harris argued that perhaps we’re misrepresenting what Muslims are about. We often speak in terms of extremists vs. moderates in the west, but in the middle lie Islamists, the people who perhaps act like moderates but implicitly (and sometimes even explicitly) support the extremist groups. The fact of the matter is, especially in non-western countries, there is LOUD and CLEAR support, but just the normal people there, for ISIS or in some cases for Al ’Qaeda.
But the thing is, it’s difficult to say that without being accused of bigotry, which to an extent is understandable. These kinds of arguments are mobilized for nefarious reasons. I look at this « debate » as one that needs to be considered strategically. How can one attempt to explain that there is a disconnect between « reality » and the simplistic dichotomy that people have in their heads (where anyone who isn’t a terrorist is a moderate and everything is cool).
My concern is the following. Due to the fact that I can’t even properly legitimize my place in this conversation, because I feel like no matter what I say I’ll be lumped with bigots, and the same is true with everyone who’s put in my position, this debate is not taking place. The question cannot be discussed, it is dead, it cannot take place. And even if it did, it would naturally attract the worst people have to offer. It would attract hate, and the conversation would be undermined by it. But this is a topic that needs to be discussed like any other, by smart people (much smarter than myself). But it fucking isn’t. It’s quiet, because there is too much to lose. People don’t feel the need to verify whether the comments of a person are racist, they label the person and ask questions later.
In this era of political correctness, academics and intellectuals as well as politicians are muzzled by new norms of what is acceptable to discuss. The misrepresentation of the “women make 73% of what men make for every hour worked” is egregious, but if you point that out, even if you point out that wage disparity between the genders is a thing but the 73% figure is incorrect, you’ll get shunned, you’ll get accused of sexism. I agree that sexism is a problem, but I disagree with the lies that are being mobilized to support this position that I believe in. I agree that most Muslims living in the West are great people, but that doesn’t mean that there is no problem. Of the non-terrorists, there are many who, like I said, implicitly support the actions of extremists, and thus legitimize (in the minds of said extremists) the violent actions that are taken.
So why am I writing all this shit? I don’t know, I don’t know what to do with it. I’m no expert. This is my assessment of the situation, the sociological influence of Islam and Muslims on Western society. I don’t think it’s negligible, I think it must be discussed openly and not just behind closed doors like it is in security meetings in every country. Why can’t we? Why are we fucking blinded by the polarizing effects of this question? Why are the unreasonable opinions that patently take so much of the spectrum of this debate blinding the rest of us? Those of us who are able to see behind the veil that are the obvious conclusions and the obvious simple explanations shouldn’t deprive ourselves from a more enriching debate just because most of the people are stuck at the most basic first steps of the debate.
This is the part where Cricketer takes over. The moderates vs. extremism debate is better spoken with his perspective and I've already hashed it out too many times on TL.net. Plus, my UPS package just arrived (yes, at 7:30pm) so I have to start a relatively long drive to work.
It's been fun, guys. See ya and start making better informed opinions whenever possible, plzkthx <3
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On November 14 2015 12:45 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:39 Souma wrote: 'All opinions are formed on limited data' bull fucking shit.
If you tell me a movie is bad and you only watched the trailer, you lose any semblance of credibility and can go on your way to being an uninformed, ignorant asshat. You're going to sit there with a straight face and say you can't tell certain movies are going to be dog meat from the trailer alone? Go watch a trailer for "The Room" on youtube, you can't ascertain that that movie is awful and any desire to further watch it is due to some sense of morbid curiosity, a wonder of just how bad it could possibly be? People don't have time for perfect information about everything. You make decisions based on limited data all day every day.
tbh The Room was so bad it turned out actually pretty good.
I agree that it is impossible to be 100% knowledgeable in everything. But sometimes partial information is more dangerous. See the whole "vaccines cause autism" and "the chemicals in GMO are killing us!" movements caused by half-informed soccer moms.
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On November 14 2015 12:49 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:44 Djzapz wrote:On November 14 2015 12:36 Souma wrote:On November 14 2015 12:34 Djzapz wrote:On November 14 2015 12:15 Souma wrote:On November 14 2015 12:14 m4ini wrote:That being said, my point is that if you haven't read the Quran, you have no basis to talk about what Islam does or does not teach. This of course applies to me too. A lot of hostility and misunderstanding is born because people have been spouting falsities towards something they actually have never read.
Wrong. Plain wrong. Even if he had read it, it's, like all religious books, all up for interpretation. To the point where both him and the cricket guy are both right and wrong at the same time. That would only ever work if there's no interpretation, or at least almost no interpretation of what you're reading. Read it first then interpret. You have no ground to stand on if you haven't read it in the first place. Or should I go around giving you my opinion of Harry Potter without having ever read it? + Show Spoiler +Don't worry, I actually read it and loved it all except for the final book.  Souma, can you understand government if you haven't read every single law they passed? My point is, you can get some sense of an ideology even if you haven't read their scripture. I mean, I'd argue that Muslims are determined more so by their actions than by their holy scripture. And perhaps this should be made clear to you by what happened tonight. If you're willing to put that much weight on the Quran, then how the *fuck* do you explain that the people who did this were leaning on the Quran to justify their actions. Actions speak louder than words. The Quran is words, an ideology. The actions of the people who committed tonight's atrocious acts are real life. And so are the actions of all the Muslims who didn't do any bullshit tonight. So what's that obsession with the scriptures, scriptures don't fucking kill anyone. I don't need the scriptures to gain some understanding of Islam. In fact, the scriptures themselves are a LOT less interesting than the interpretations of them that can be made. The hundreds of different interpretations, Souma... So don't tell people to read the Quran or the Bible, because if they did, the next thing they'd be told is that they fucking read it wrong. If actions speak louder than words, then inaction speaks just as loud, and the moderates who don't actually commit atrocities should be the shining examples of Islam. End of story. I have no problem with moderates. Moderates are cool. But what about the implicit support of extremists by Islamist who are often wrongly described as "moderates" due to their lack of direct participation in terrorist acts. What strikes me as insane though is your insistence on saying "end of story". Is it that simple? I wrote a little thing earlier, I was hesitant to post it, I'm a little drunk so it's probably a bit bad but I think I'll post it. I don't think "end of story" applies here. I think that this is a social and political issue just as complicated as anything else, that can be explored and understood with a staggering amount of depth, but the context doesn't allow for discussion or for critical thought. This is copy pasted from a doc called Fuck.docx. + Show Spoiler +The realization, or the argument, that there is a fundamental problem with Islam shouldn’t automatically be about hate, it shouldn’t automatically be viewed as a statement which condemns all Muslims. The realization that there is a fundamental problem with Islam is no different from any other social problem that involved wildly different viewpoints and conceptions of what society is, what free speech is, the values that people have.
I’ll be the first to condemn what I perceive to be bigotry, and I’m not saying this because I feel like it’s necessary, I’m writing this down out of sheer necessity. There are these classifications of people who have managed to figure out some way to avoid all criticism by labeling their critics as bigots and racists. Now, I wouldn’t presume to think for you, or to speak for you, but I don’t believe myself to be a racist. I criticize everyone and everything, I criticize ideologies, religions, individuals, I criticize governments, organizations, lobbies, interest groups. I criticize Christians, I criticize atheists, and I criticize Muslims, too – who are not immune to criticism just because it’s a religion, or because it’s a minority and a religion.
Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a religion which is not incompatible with peace, as evidenced by the majority of Muslims who live in western countries and who condemn the senseless violence that our countries have been subjected to in recent months and years. But it can easily be a violent religion. Much like Christianity, there are multiple interpretations of the holy scriptures, and fuck you if you think yours is the correct one. You don’t know shit and nor do I.
Nonetheless, Sam Harris argued that perhaps we’re misrepresenting what Muslims are about. We often speak in terms of extremists vs. moderates in the west, but in the middle lie Islamists, the people who perhaps act like moderates but implicitly (and sometimes even explicitly) support the extremist groups. The fact of the matter is, especially in non-western countries, there is LOUD and CLEAR support, but just the normal people there, for ISIS or in some cases for Al ’Qaeda.
But the thing is, it’s difficult to say that without being accused of bigotry, which to an extent is understandable. These kinds of arguments are mobilized for nefarious reasons. I look at this « debate » as one that needs to be considered strategically. How can one attempt to explain that there is a disconnect between « reality » and the simplistic dichotomy that people have in their heads (where anyone who isn’t a terrorist is a moderate and everything is cool).
My concern is the following. Due to the fact that I can’t even properly legitimize my place in this conversation, because I feel like no matter what I say I’ll be lumped with bigots, and the same is true with everyone who’s put in my position, this debate is not taking place. The question cannot be discussed, it is dead, it cannot take place. And even if it did, it would naturally attract the worst people have to offer. It would attract hate, and the conversation would be undermined by it. But this is a topic that needs to be discussed like any other, by smart people (much smarter than myself). But it fucking isn’t. It’s quiet, because there is too much to lose. People don’t feel the need to verify whether the comments of a person are racist, they label the person and ask questions later.
In this era of political correctness, academics and intellectuals as well as politicians are muzzled by new norms of what is acceptable to discuss. The misrepresentation of the “women make 73% of what men make for every hour worked” is egregious, but if you point that out, even if you point out that wage disparity between the genders is a thing but the 73% figure is incorrect, you’ll get shunned, you’ll get accused of sexism. I agree that sexism is a problem, but I disagree with the lies that are being mobilized to support this position that I believe in. I agree that most Muslims living in the West are great people, but that doesn’t mean that there is no problem. Of the non-terrorists, there are many who, like I said, implicitly support the actions of extremists, and thus legitimize (in the minds of said extremists) the violent actions that are taken.
So why am I writing all this shit? I don’t know, I don’t know what to do with it. I’m no expert. This is my assessment of the situation, the sociological influence of Islam and Muslims on Western society. I don’t think it’s negligible, I think it must be discussed openly and not just behind closed doors like it is in security meetings in every country. Why can’t we? Why are we fucking blinded by the polarizing effects of this question? Why are the unreasonable opinions that patently take so much of the spectrum of this debate blinding the rest of us? Those of us who are able to see behind the veil that are the obvious conclusions and the obvious simple explanations shouldn’t deprive ourselves from a more enriching debate just because most of the people are stuck at the most basic first steps of the debate.
This is the part where Cricketer takes over. The moderates vs. extremism debate is better spoken with his perspective and I've already hashed it out too many times on TL.net. Plus, my UPS package just arrived (yes, at 7:30pm) so I have to start a relatively long drive to work. It's been fun, guys. See ya and start making better informed opinions whenever possible, plzkthx <3
Same to you, gonna send you some veggies later, hope you enjoy. 
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Bisutopia19307 Posts
On November 14 2015 12:48 ROOTFayth wrote:answering violence with violence is a never ending cycle, hopefully the right decision will be made what happened in Paris is horrifying  Right. How does anyone fathom a right response to this. Retaliate within your home country, excommunicate a religious group, attack terrorists groups in other countries, declare war on other countries and make them your own, or increase police and remain peaceful? Every idea just seems to have its cons.
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There's no shame in increasing policing to protect your citizens. So many people making sad faces and say slogans like "we are all human." Please.
If you truly care about saving precious lives, you need to increase surveillance and profile people who are probable perpetrators of criminal acts. The inconvenience is a small price for saved lives after all.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 14 2015 12:45 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:39 Souma wrote: 'All opinions are formed on limited data' bull fucking shit.
If you tell me a movie is bad and you only watched the trailer, you lose any semblance of credibility and can go on your way to being an uninformed, ignorant asshat. You're going to sit there with a straight face and say you can't tell certain movies are going to be dog meat from the trailer alone? Go watch a trailer for "The Room" on youtube, you can't ascertain that that movie is awful and any desire to further watch it is due to some sense of morbid curiosity, a wonder of just how bad it could possibly be? People don't have time for perfect information about everything. You make decisions based on limited data all day every day.
You do, but limited data undeniably limits the value of the conclusion. This is why we listen to experts, not people that read a Wikipedia summary. The latter may possess understanding, but that understanding will likely either be flawed or lack depth.
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On November 14 2015 13:01 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 12:48 ROOTFayth wrote:answering violence with violence is a never ending cycle, hopefully the right decision will be made what happened in Paris is horrifying  Right. How does anyone fathom a right response to this. Retaliate within your home country, excommunicate a religious group, attack terrorists groups in other countries, declare war on other countries and make them your own, or increase police and remain peaceful? Every idea just seems to have its cons. the first step is simple, figure out who did it and why. Until you have that it's kinda hard to craft a proper response.
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