EPTOr the 200 people who died coming back from Charm el Cheikh in Egypt few days ago.
I'm french, I love France, but come on. No life worth more than another. UN's flag maybe?
Shootings and Casualties in Central Paris - Page 45
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Agathon
France1505 Posts
Or the 200 people who died coming back from Charm el Cheikh in Egypt few days ago. I'm french, I love France, but come on. No life worth more than another. UN's flag maybe? | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
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Mistakes
United States1102 Posts
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ref4
2933 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:07 Agathon wrote: Even if I'm french, when I'm watching all the blue white and red flag across the world I can't help thinking about the 50 lebanese who died yesterday and who someway somehow seem not to diserve their flag on a tower. Or the 200 people who died coming back from Charm el Cheikh in Egypt few days ago. I'm french, I love France, but come on. No life worth more than another. UN's flag maybe? No media coverage = who cares | ||
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Agathon
France1505 Posts
Yeah, sadly. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:07 Shock710 wrote: sorry if this is stupid, but i really dont know anything about politcs of the situation or military stuff but why is it so hard to find the ISIS (i somewhat remember reading that some like missiles or something have killed ISS members before) cant countries just go fight their like stronghold?? it's not that hard to get basic military control over places like that. It'd take a few weeks for a good military. The problem is then what? You're going to face an insurgency, which is much harder to stop, and you'll have to stay there or trouble crops right up again. That's quite expensive in money and manpower, and costs quite a few casualties as well. There's also considerable political complication due to differing views of handling the aftermath (i.e. russia would want the land to go back to assad, and US doesn't want assad in power). | ||
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SpiZe
Canada3640 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:07 Shock710 wrote: sorry if this is stupid, but i really dont know anything about politcs of the situation or military stuff but why is it so hard to find the ISIS (i somewhat remember reading that some like missiles or something have killed ISS members before) cant countries just go fight their like stronghold?? It's the same as it was with talibans or any terrorist groups really. It is really hard to find them because they have the terrain advantage, and it's usually very mountainous areas (at least it was in Afghanistan), so tracking and finding people hiding in caves and tunnels is very very hard. Then some of them just hide in plain sight in villages because people don't really know who's a terrorist and who's not and you end up with the hard task of finding out who's who with a local populace that is sometimes cooperative sometimes not, it's a coin flip depending on the origin of the military the locals are collaborating with and the origin of the locals themselves. Now ISIS is a bit more "visible" in their fight because they actually show themselves and launch full scale attack on villages and such but the root of the problem still applies. | ||
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ElMeanYo
United States1032 Posts
"But that a camel-merchant should stir up insurrection in his village; that in league with some miserable followers he persuades them that he talks with the angel Gabriel; that he boasts of having been carried to heaven, where he received in part this unintelligible book, each page of which makes common sense shudder; that, to pay homage to this book, he delivers his country to iron and flame; that he cuts the throats of fathers and kidnaps daughters; that he gives to the defeated the choice of his religion or death: this is assuredly nothing any man can excuse, at least if he was not born a Turk, or if superstition has not extinguished all natural light in him." - Voltaire (1740). | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:05 Zealously wrote: You do, but limited data undeniably limits the value of the conclusion. This is why we listen to experts, not people that read a Wikipedia summary. The latter may possess understanding, but that understanding will likely either be flawed or lack depth. I don't think it always devalues the conclusion as the conclusion can be 100% completely spot on. But like I said, you can make a very strong conclusion on limited information, however you probably don't want to get into a debate going into all the minutia of an issue with an expert on said issue. For that yeah, you're going to want to get the best information possible. But for day to day life it's impartial info or nothing. It just is what it is. People have to form opinions and make decisions on a million different things every day, with imperfect information. My contention is with the idea that you can't form an opinion on something unless you have reviewed every aspect of it. That's just not how the real world is is what I'm getting at. I must say the events of today have been more draining and given me a heavier heart than pretty much anything in recent memory. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
I'm all for engaging in war against them but how would it be done - effectively? Unless you just nuke the entire country / wipe out the entire population, I don't think it's gonna work. (not saying they should) | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:07 Agathon wrote: Even if I'm french, when I'm watching all the blue white and red flag across the world I can't help thinking about the 50 lebanese who died yesterday and who someway somehow seem not to diserve their flag on a tower. Or the 200 people who died coming back from Charm el Cheikh in Egypt few days ago. I'm french, I love France, but come on. No life worth more than another. UN's flag maybe? You're right . However, France as a country of the Western World which has democracy, a republic, social welfare must have a peaceful society. It is pretty sad but the fact we are less shock by an attentat in these countries because we can justify this by some causes: they have not a good democracy, republics, income and I think we are mostly right, the fact that it happens in France too questions our Western ideals. | ||
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oBlade
United States6207 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:01 BisuDagger wrote: Right. How does anyone fathom a right response to this. Retaliate within your home country, excommunicate a religious group, attack terrorists groups in other countries, declare war on other countries and make them your own, or increase police and remain peaceful? Every idea just seems to have its cons. I'll say something to this, with the hopes that it won't be misunderstood. I think that military intervention in Syria is something that's necessary. (I'm not claiming attacks today were planned, paid for, or carried out by ISIS. Maybe they were, but there are many extremist groups, and it's not really relevant who specifically did it.) I don't think we need to wait for problems in the world to reach us before we seriously consider fixing them. This includes famine, disease, and so on, but it also includes people who think killing and totalitarianism is a game. The victims of ISIS and sectarian violence in Syria themselves should justify going into Syria. Imagine being that guy that tweeted in the theater asking the police to storm it, the feeling in that moment. Now imagine being a prisoner of ISIS about to be burned alive or some other perverse bullshit, would you really not want to see soldiers coming to kill your captors if they had western uniforms? I think those people equally deserve saving. I know there are people braver and stronger than me who make it their job to prepare for that opportunity. The reason extremist movements enjoy success is ultimately because they extremism can physically have a base somewhere, I think. Whether that's northern Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. The same way drug cartels physically control places. You have to actually dislodge and defeat them where they thrive. If you excise a tumor, it can't metastasize, right? The intelligence community might be doing okay. We don't hear much about what they stop. Nobody's a fan of surveillance states, which the US is the worst of I guess. But I assume they must be stopping some things, and except for today it looks like Europe does alright. On November 14 2015 13:07 Shock710 wrote: sorry if this is stupid, but i really dont know anything about politcs of the situation or military stuff but why is it so hard to find the ISIS (i somewhat remember reading that some like missiles or something have killed ISS members before) cant countries just go fight their like stronghold?? Yes, regimes in the area have armies numbering in the millions of soldiers, but nobody wants to do the dirty work, although about as many refugees has been displaced as those countries have soldiers. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:07 Shock710 wrote: sorry if this is stupid, but i really dont know anything about politcs of the situation or military stuff but why is it so hard to find the ISIS (i somewhat remember reading that some like missiles or something have killed ISS members before) cant countries just go fight their like stronghold?? It's not like WW2 where there's an identifiable evil like Hitler and the Nazis who wear uniforms and fight in organized fronts. Those wars are a cake walk comparitively. Its when you don't know your ally from your enemy things get muddy. When they can hide anywhere, they don't follow the "conventional rules of war". There's no ominous castle on a mountain that has a sign that says "Bad guys here!" and we just blow it up and we're done. That would be super sweet! But that's not what we're fighting. We're also fighting an idea, and ideas can't be killed by killing a person, ideas remain and they're stronger than any person could ever be. You've also got the problems of it costs a lot of money. People are sick of wars and don't want to get involved in them. Peoples kids and siblings die and get injured for life in wars and people don't seem keen on taking care of them after the fact. The fact that many people over there don't want us there mucking things up which makes things more difficult. And the fact that if you come to my country and kill my brother, you've probably just made mortal enemies of my entire extended family and friends. You've just turned 1 kill into 100 enemies. There's a billion other reasons that make it an awful, long, hard, costly endeavor. There are no easy answers here unfortunately, it would be really great if there was a quick fix. Something needs to be done surely, but I believe it needs to literally be tackled by the world. It can't just be the US and our buddies stomping around. At the forefront of it has to be the Arab states. There is a fight being waged over the soul of Islam and they need to be right there fighting for it. This has become a world wide problem that must be addressed by all the nations of the world. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:21 parkufarku wrote: How do you exactly initiate war on terrorists though? They are hiding out within their country as regular citizens. This is similar to the Vietcongs where soldiers couldn't tell the difference between the civilians and the terrorists. I'm all for engaging in war against them but how would it be done - effectively? Unless you just nuke the entire country / wipe out the entire population, I don't think it's gonna work. (not saying they should) well, if you really want to know, you could read the US army counterinsurgency manual: (warning: long load time) http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/Repository/Materials/COIN-FM3-24.pdf in short, there are ways, but it is expensive, time consuming, and hard to do. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:35 parkufarku wrote: ^ don't think WW2 was a cake walk. Sure, these guerilla wars / terrorist acts are much harder to pinpoint, but third reich empire was one of the strongest fighting machines in the world during the time. Easily identifiable? Yes. Easily beatable? No Get a time machine and go back to WW2, but instead of the Nazi's substitute in Islamic extremist fighters. If they used ISIS tactics but had all the power of the third reich it would have been way way way worse. The key word is comparatively. I'm not saying WW2 was lulz piss easy np bois! It was clearly hell on earth. However WW2 had the "bonus" (for lack of a better word) of being the devil you know. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:21 parkufarku wrote: How do you exactly initiate war on terrorists though? They are hiding out within their country as regular citizens. This is similar to the Vietcongs where soldiers couldn't tell the difference between the civilians and the terrorists. I'm all for engaging in war against them but how would it be done - effectively? Unless you just nuke the entire country / wipe out the entire population, I don't think it's gonna work. (not saying they should) The issue is that the terrorists are in your country to begin with. For one, don't let the population that's breeding jihadis into your country. That'll help things along. Two, you NEED to increase policing and surveillance, and act on the information that you receive. For example, there were two people in the US who routinely expressed preparation for a race war and armed themselves to shoot up black churches. The FBI didn't wait for them to actually blow up the churches. They went in and arrested these two guys after evidence of them arming themselves. http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/10/us/white-supremacist-bomb-plot-virginia-fbi/ The two points I outlined will go a long way in protecting civilians from terrorist attacks, be they jihadi or home brewed right wingers. | ||
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ElMeanYo
United States1032 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:28 oBlade wrote: The reason extremist movements enjoy success is ultimately because they extremism can physically have a base somewhere, I think. Whether that's northern Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria. The same way drug cartels physically control places. You have to actually dislodge and defeat them where they thrive. If you excise a tumor, it can't metastasize, right? This sentence was spot on... well done. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19366 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:27 stilt wrote: You're right . However, France as a country of the Western World which has democracy, a republic, social welfare must have a peaceful society. It is pretty sad but the fact we are less shock by an attentat in these countries because we can justify this by some causes: they have not a good democracy, republics, income and I think we are mostly right, the fact that it happens in France too questions our Western ideals. Regardless of the rage incited by any of these events, what are we expected to do. I often feel so helpless/useless in the moments in history. Am I serving the world best by being productive and contributing to jobs and society, or should I be a full time activists until all peace is solved? We can't all just stop what are doing or food and goods seize to exist and existing civil societies will fall. Then that means are supposed to rely on the leaders we elect and military to make this happen. Which is even worse with the state of politics here in America. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12467 Posts
On November 14 2015 13:27 stilt wrote: You're right . However, France as a country of the Western World which has democracy, a republic, social welfare must have a peaceful society. It is pretty sad but the fact we are less shock by an attentat in these countries because we can justify this by some causes: they have not a good democracy, republics, income and I think we are mostly right, the fact that it happens in France too questions our Western ideals. Also they're far away and somewhat different. We can pretend all we want that all human lives matter to us on an equal level, but that's just not true. When people die in France, it's close, it threatens us. It might have been us, for all we know. When people die in Nigeria, sure, it's sad... but there's just not the same level of concern, we don't feel implicated. | ||
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