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Poland3748 Posts
UPDATE
Esports earnings fixed it so kudos to them.
So I looked up countries section on esports earnings (esportsearnings.com) and it looked like this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6NrzyAX.png)
so "Taiwan, Province of China".
Now I understand that's interpretation in line with what goverment of People's Republic of China declares, it's rather far from truth. Taiwan is generally indenpendent country called Republic of China and while you can't have official diplomatic relations with both of them, PRC has no control over ROC/Taiwan (and - of course -vice versa).
I think this is very disrespectful - anyone has idea why they handle it like that?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan,_China says:
The term "Taiwan, Province of China" also appears in the International Organization for Standardization's ISO 3166-1 country codes because its information source, the publication UN Terminology Bulletin-Country Names, lists Taiwan as "Taiwan, Province of China" due to the PRC's political influence in the United Nations as a member of the UN Security Council. Since the ISO 3166-1 code is a frequently used data source for computer programs and websites to pull a list of country names, "Taiwan, Province of China" is sometimes seen on pull-down menus instead of "Taiwan" due to this reason.
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Poland3748 Posts
Interesting.
Still I think it would be a lot more appropriate to use s.t. more reasonable. Even Honk Kong is just Honk Kong.
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Hong Kong is universally recognized as an area of special governance within China. Taiwan is not recognized in this way.
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You got Republic of China/ROC (Taiwan) and People's Republic of China/PRC (China). From my understanding, China replaced Taiwan's seat in the UN since they were bigger and badder. China wanted the UN to recognize them as the one true China, and regard Taiwan as a democratic poser, because communism > all else.
It's the same people (Chinese) with different governments/piece of land. I can see where the controversy arises, it'd be like calling South Korea a province of North Korea and piss off all the South Koreans. They're all still Koreans.
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Go boycott the ISO and UN if you want, I doubt anybody pulled any strings for this to happen. I'm just for normalization of relations between the two bodies of land occupied by similar people who in reality share the same drives for success, safety, and social progress.
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Why can't we all just be Earthlings?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 24 2015 08:48 riotjune wrote:
You got Republic of China/ROC (Taiwan) and People's Republic of China/PRC (China). From my understanding, China replaced Taiwan's seat in the UN since they were bigger and badder. China wanted the UN to recognize them as the one true China, and regard Taiwan as a democratic poser, because communism > all else.
It's the same people (Chinese) with different governments/piece of land. I can see where the controversy arises, it'd be like calling South Korea a province of North Korea and piss off all the South Koreans. They're all still Koreans.
Taiwan uses traditional Chinese characters and the mainland uses simplified. It's a big difference for people who've only ever used one type. Taiwan uses zhuyin as its phonetics while the PRC uses pingyin, which is even more different. Even culturally Taiwan and modern China can be very different. Perhaps you could call Taiwanese a subgroup or its language a "dialect", but it's not as simple as them being "the same people" with contrasting political ideals.
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Taiwan1471 Posts
On August 24 2015 11:45 Caihead wrote:
Go boycott the ISO and UN if you want, I doubt anybody pulled any strings for this to happen. I'm just for normalization of relations between the two bodies of land occupied by similar people who in reality share the same drives for success, safety, and social progress.
Those are the ISO standards because that's what China pushed for. It's factually incorrect, because like it or not, Taiwan is not yet a Province of China.
Speaking as someone who actually lives in Taiwan... if we get to vote on it and decide to get swallowed up by China, so be it. What pisses people off is that there isn't much of a choice in the matter.
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the PRC curried favor with a bunch of african nations in the 70s or something to get it like this
blah blah international poltiics
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
it's not that big of a deal, since we are used to being treated like this I would say....
at least this Taiwan, Province of China is a bit better than Chinese Taipei and it's flag we have to use for the olympics.
On August 24 2015 08:48 riotjune wrote:
You got Republic of China/ROC (Taiwan) and People's Republic of China/PRC (China). From my understanding, China replaced Taiwan's seat in the UN since they were bigger and badder. China wanted the UN to recognize them as the one true China, and regard Taiwan as a democratic poser, because communism > all else.
It's the same people (Chinese) with different governments/piece of land. I can see where the controversy arises, it'd be like calling South Korea a province of North Korea and piss off all the South Koreans. They're all still Koreans.
And that is way too simplified for the complex political situation we have across the Taiwan strait. Also it might trigger rants from angry Taiwanese :>
Culturally and politically Taiwan and China are quite a bit apart by now. Your description might have been valid for a time just after the end of the Civil war but by now it is outdated.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51453 Posts
In other facts from op, China and its Dota 2 dominance meaning its topping the earnings charts in ESPORTS by a long way! Especially when you divide the players into an average of earnings etc. Pretty good!
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On August 24 2015 12:46 lichter wrote:
Taiwan uses traditional Chinese characters and the mainland uses simplified. It's a big difference for people who've only ever used one type. Taiwan uses zhuyin as its phonetics while the PRC uses pingyin, which is even more different. Even culturally Taiwan and modern China can be very different. Perhaps you could call Taiwanese a subgroup or its language a "dialect", but it's not as simple as them being "the same people" with contrasting political ideals.
On August 24 2015 16:19 ShiaoPi wrote:
And that is way too simplified for the complex political situation we have across the Taiwan strait. Also it might trigger rants from angry Taiwanese :>
Culturally and politically Taiwan and China are quite a bit apart by now. Your description might have been valid for a time just after the end of the Civil war but by now it is outdated.
Don't both countries use Mandarin as the major dialect? They both sound the same, except China uses more "tongue curl" than Taiwan as I heard someone put it. The Taiwanese dialect is native to the island, just as China has a bunch of dialects spread throughout the mainland, but the majority should still be able to speak Mandarin.
Also, culturally, they shouldn't be all be that different since they share the same thousands year history, and it was only until ~1930s/World War II when they started to diverge. And what's this about Taiwanese being a "subgroup?" A "subgroup" of what exactly, Chinese? The Taiwanese majority are Han Chinese, like China. You said Taiwan uses traditional aka the original Chinese characters. Also Taiwan's government/KMT (and it's people) were governing the mainland before they got chased out by their brothers who converted to communism. If anyone is to be labeled a "subgroup" as lichter have inclined to do, perhaps it should be the China now. They're both Han Chinese, they share the same blood. So yea, they're the same people to me, just with different political ideals. I look at it this way, if the South won the Civil War and the US was split into two, I would still view both people as Americans and not label either as a subgroup of the other, as if there was a negative connotation of one being inferior to the other (unless it came to comparing ideals, then yes, slavery is an inferior and backwards notion, but let's forget this tangent). North Koreans and South Koreans are a similar example: Same people who shared the same history until a fairly recent split into different governments/countries.
And just because one uses traditional characters and the other simplified, or different phonetics, isn't grounds for huge cultural differences. The different phonetics are used to learn the same characters with fixed definitions. Hell, I've seen people just skip the phonetics part and go straight to learning the characters. As for the characters themselves, one standard has certain words with less strokes than the other, and people have been able to read both without much difficulty converting between the two. So not much difference there either, the majority of characters are kept the same after all.
Unless you were trying to make a distinction between Han Chinese and native Taiwanese/aborigines, which are now, from what I understand, a minority in Taiwan. Then Han Chinese and the natives would both be subgroups, amongst others, under the heading "Chinese," just like how the Ainu and the Yamato would be subgroups under the heading "Japanese." But going back to comparing the cultures of China and Taiwan, I don't think they're all that different from each other, and any differences would have to originate from the ~1930s split of governing ideologies, which is considered fairly recent if you take the whole history of China into account, and which both parties will lay claim to, or say they are a part of. But I would agree, politically they are nothing alike. Either way, both countries still have to deal with problems with corruption in their respective governments, so maybe they're not that all different politically either :/
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what matters is that they feel like they're different and part of separate groups
like mainlanders can be pretty hypocritical about it where they claim they're the same for political reasons but still distance themselves in terms of group identification it's pretty strange
like you can type up all that but the reality is that most taiwanese people in taiwan wiill strongly identify as specifically taiwanese over as "chinese" in general
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On August 24 2015 17:12 riotjune wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 12:46 lichter wrote:
Taiwan uses traditional Chinese characters and the mainland uses simplified. It's a big difference for people who've only ever used one type. Taiwan uses zhuyin as its phonetics while the PRC uses pingyin, which is even more different. Even culturally Taiwan and modern China can be very different. Perhaps you could call Taiwanese a subgroup or its language a "dialect", but it's not as simple as them being "the same people" with contrasting political ideals. Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 16:19 ShiaoPi wrote:
And that is way too simplified for the complex political situation we have across the Taiwan strait. Also it might trigger rants from angry Taiwanese :>
Culturally and politically Taiwan and China are quite a bit apart by now. Your description might have been valid for a time just after the end of the Civil war but by now it is outdated. Don't both countries use Mandarin as the major dialect? They both sound the same, except China uses more "tongue curl" than Taiwan as I heard someone put it. The Taiwanese dialect is native to the island, just as China has a bunch of dialects spread throughout the mainland, but the majority should still be able to speak Mandarin. Also, culturally, they shouldn't be all be that different since they share the same thousands year history, and it was only until ~1930s/World War II when they started to diverge. And what's this about Taiwanese being a "subgroup?" A "subgroup" of what exactly, Chinese? The Taiwanese majority are Han Chinese, like China. You said Taiwan uses traditional aka the original Chinese characters. Also Taiwan's government/KMT (and it's people) were governing the mainland before they got chased out by their brothers who converted to communism. If anyone is to be labeled a "subgroup" as lichter have inclined to do, perhaps it should be the China now. They're both Han Chinese, they share the same blood. So yea, they're the same people to me, just with different political ideals. I look at it this way, if the South won the Civil War and the US was split into two, I would still view both people as Americans and not label either as a subgroup of the other, as if there was a negative connotation of one being inferior to the other (unless it came to comparing ideals, then yes, slavery is an inferior and backwards notion, but let's forget this tangent). North Koreans and South Koreans are a similar example: Same people who shared the same history until a fairly recent split into different governments/countries. And just because one uses traditional characters and the other simplified, or different phonetics, isn't grounds for huge cultural differences. The different phonetics are used to learn the same characters with fixed definitions. Hell, I've seen people just skip the phonetics part and go straight to learning the characters. As for the characters themselves, one standard has certain words with less strokes than the other, and people have been able to read both without much difficulty converting between the two. So not much difference there either, the majority of characters are kept the same after all. Unless you were trying to make a distinction between Han Chinese and native Taiwanese/aborigines, which are now, from what I understand, a minority in Taiwan. Then Han Chinese and the natives would both be subgroups, amongst others, under the heading "Chinese," just like how the Ainu and the Yamato would be subgroups under the heading "Japanese." But going back to comparing the cultures of China and Taiwan, I don't think they're all that different from each other, and any differences would have to originate from the ~1930s split of governing ideologies, which is considered fairly recent if you take the whole history of China into account, and which both parties will lay claim to, or say they are a part of. But I would agree, politically they are nothing alike. Either way, both countries still have to deal with problems with corruption in their respective governments, so maybe they're not that all different politically either :/
You're generally right but try to think of it in a different perspective, like Scotland and the UK (maybe), the Catalans/Basque country and Spain, Tibet/Uyghurs and China, and Bangladesh/Pakistan and India. They share a lot of similarities but they have their differences.
Taiwan feels different enough to want to be their own state, just like the others. That's what matters most imo.
From what I gather you don't speak the language so you're underestimating the difference in simplified/traditional characters amd pinyin vs zhuyin. They are significant and confusing to the uninitiated. I for one get confused and didn't learnt something new while looking at this image because I learnt the simplified version in school. Also, most of the time I understand what is written in traditional characters because of context. If I were given a character by itself my comprehension goes way down.
Just look at the difference between traditional and simplified characters below.
![[image loading]](http://pic.baike.soso.com/p/20140415/bki-20140415210034-1053053090.jpg)
Note: In Chinese, small differences matter and can make completely different words. Here are a few examples with rough translations:
乌 (dark) and 鸟(bird)
耍(to play) and 要(to want)
蓝 (blue) and 篮 (basket)
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On August 24 2015 17:12 riotjune wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 12:46 lichter wrote:
Taiwan uses traditional Chinese characters and the mainland uses simplified. It's a big difference for people who've only ever used one type. Taiwan uses zhuyin as its phonetics while the PRC uses pingyin, which is even more different. Even culturally Taiwan and modern China can be very different. Perhaps you could call Taiwanese a subgroup or its language a "dialect", but it's not as simple as them being "the same people" with contrasting political ideals. Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 16:19 ShiaoPi wrote:
And that is way too simplified for the complex political situation we have across the Taiwan strait. Also it might trigger rants from angry Taiwanese :>
Culturally and politically Taiwan and China are quite a bit apart by now. Your description might have been valid for a time just after the end of the Civil war but by now it is outdated. Don't both countries use Mandarin as the major dialect? They both sound the same, except China uses more "tongue curl" than Taiwan as I heard someone put it. The Taiwanese dialect is native to the island, just as China has a bunch of dialects spread throughout the mainland, but the majority should still be able to speak Mandarin. Also, culturally, they shouldn't be all be that different since they share the same thousands year history, and it was only until ~1930s/World War II when they started to diverge. And what's this about Taiwanese being a "subgroup?" A "subgroup" of what exactly, Chinese? The Taiwanese majority are Han Chinese, like China. You said Taiwan uses traditional aka the original Chinese characters. Also Taiwan's government/KMT (and it's people) were governing the mainland before they got chased out by their brothers who converted to communism. If anyone is to be labeled a "subgroup" as lichter have inclined to do, perhaps it should be the China now. They're both Han Chinese, they share the same blood. So yea, they're the same people to me, just with different political ideals. I look at it this way, if the South won the Civil War and the US was split into two, I would still view both people as Americans and not label either as a subgroup of the other, as if there was a negative connotation of one being inferior to the other (unless it came to comparing ideals, then yes, slavery is an inferior and backwards notion, but let's forget this tangent). North Koreans and South Koreans are a similar example: Same people who shared the same history until a fairly recent split into different governments/countries. And just because one uses traditional characters and the other simplified, or different phonetics, isn't grounds for huge cultural differences. The different phonetics are used to learn the same characters with fixed definitions. Hell, I've seen people just skip the phonetics part and go straight to learning the characters. As for the characters themselves, one standard has certain words with less strokes than the other, and people have been able to read both without much difficulty converting between the two. So not much difference there either, the majority of characters are kept the same after all. Unless you were trying to make a distinction between Han Chinese and native Taiwanese/aborigines, which are now, from what I understand, a minority in Taiwan. Then Han Chinese and the natives would both be subgroups, amongst others, under the heading "Chinese," just like how the Ainu and the Yamato would be subgroups under the heading "Japanese." But going back to comparing the cultures of China and Taiwan, I don't think they're all that different from each other, and any differences would have to originate from the ~1930s split of governing ideologies, which is considered fairly recent if you take the whole history of China into account, and which both parties will lay claim to, or say they are a part of. But I would agree, politically they are nothing alike. Either way, both countries still have to deal with problems with corruption in their respective governments, so maybe they're not that all different politically either :/
You really couldn't be more wrong. Their cultures come from the same roots, but are different enough in important, recent developments that they are definitely distinct cultures today, of which typography is one difference.
The difference in Chinese vs Taiwanese culture arose from the way in which they developed after the split. China underwent a disastrous period of cultural destruction and a famine that took tens of millions of lives, then took off when Deng Xiaoping reintroduced capitalism while keeping the one-party system. The result is a country in which common decency and empathy are lacking, as during the formative years of the entire population, survival was their main concern. This also explains the reason why anything can be counterfeit, everyone is corrupt, and nothing is safe, including milk powder, buildings, food, chemical plants, and so on. If I were to summarize modern Chinese culture in one word, it would be 'cynicism'.
Taiwan developed more gradually, and enjoyed success as one of Asia's 'Small Tigers'. They were ruled by the dictatorship of Chiang Kai-Shek, but Chiang did not undergo mass cultural revolution, nor persecute artists and thinkers in the same way that Mao did. Taiwan underwent a democratic transformation under his son, and Western values became dominant in Taiwan while preserving the virtues of traditional Chinese culture.
You might say, that's similar to what happened in Germany for example, but the biggest difference is in the systematic way in which Mao Zedong destroyed Chinese culture during the Chinese Revolution. Soviet Germany, for all its repression of freedoms, did not go about destroying everything that was German. And as such it was easier to reintegrate East Germany - yet we still see massive cultural differences between East and West Germans to this day.
It's like the difference between humans and apes: 98% same DNA, but it's the 2% that makes all the difference. Not that I'm saying any side is apes.
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Actually, Taiwan is one of two provinces of China (ROC), the other being Fujian. I'm not sure why the website creators would exclude players from Fujian province though.
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Poland3748 Posts
On August 24 2015 23:19 georgehabadasher wrote:
Actually, Taiwan is one of two provinces of China (ROC), the other being Fujian. I'm not sure why the website creators would exclude players from Fujian province though.
Given that they use word "China" to describe PRC, it's unlikely.
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On August 24 2015 17:54 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 17:12 riotjune wrote:On August 24 2015 12:46 lichter wrote:
Taiwan uses traditional Chinese characters and the mainland uses simplified. It's a big difference for people who've only ever used one type. Taiwan uses zhuyin as its phonetics while the PRC uses pingyin, which is even more different. Even culturally Taiwan and modern China can be very different. Perhaps you could call Taiwanese a subgroup or its language a "dialect", but it's not as simple as them being "the same people" with contrasting political ideals. On August 24 2015 16:19 ShiaoPi wrote:
And that is way too simplified for the complex political situation we have across the Taiwan strait. Also it might trigger rants from angry Taiwanese :>
Culturally and politically Taiwan and China are quite a bit apart by now. Your description might have been valid for a time just after the end of the Civil war but by now it is outdated. Don't both countries use Mandarin as the major dialect? They both sound the same, except China uses more "tongue curl" than Taiwan as I heard someone put it. The Taiwanese dialect is native to the island, just as China has a bunch of dialects spread throughout the mainland, but the majority should still be able to speak Mandarin. Also, culturally, they shouldn't be all be that different since they share the same thousands year history, and it was only until ~1930s/World War II when they started to diverge. And what's this about Taiwanese being a "subgroup?" A "subgroup" of what exactly, Chinese? The Taiwanese majority are Han Chinese, like China. You said Taiwan uses traditional aka the original Chinese characters. Also Taiwan's government/KMT (and it's people) were governing the mainland before they got chased out by their brothers who converted to communism. If anyone is to be labeled a "subgroup" as lichter have inclined to do, perhaps it should be the China now. They're both Han Chinese, they share the same blood. So yea, they're the same people to me, just with different political ideals. I look at it this way, if the South won the Civil War and the US was split into two, I would still view both people as Americans and not label either as a subgroup of the other, as if there was a negative connotation of one being inferior to the other (unless it came to comparing ideals, then yes, slavery is an inferior and backwards notion, but let's forget this tangent). North Koreans and South Koreans are a similar example: Same people who shared the same history until a fairly recent split into different governments/countries. And just because one uses traditional characters and the other simplified, or different phonetics, isn't grounds for huge cultural differences. The different phonetics are used to learn the same characters with fixed definitions. Hell, I've seen people just skip the phonetics part and go straight to learning the characters. As for the characters themselves, one standard has certain words with less strokes than the other, and people have been able to read both without much difficulty converting between the two. So not much difference there either, the majority of characters are kept the same after all. Unless you were trying to make a distinction between Han Chinese and native Taiwanese/aborigines, which are now, from what I understand, a minority in Taiwan. Then Han Chinese and the natives would both be subgroups, amongst others, under the heading "Chinese," just like how the Ainu and the Yamato would be subgroups under the heading "Japanese." But going back to comparing the cultures of China and Taiwan, I don't think they're all that different from each other, and any differences would have to originate from the ~1930s split of governing ideologies, which is considered fairly recent if you take the whole history of China into account, and which both parties will lay claim to, or say they are a part of. But I would agree, politically they are nothing alike. Either way, both countries still have to deal with problems with corruption in their respective governments, so maybe they're not that all different politically either :/ You're generally right but try to think of it in a different perspective, like Scotland and the UK (maybe), the Catalans/Basque country and Spain, Tibet/Uyghurs and China, and Bangladesh/Pakistan and India. They share a lot of similarities but they have their differences. Taiwan feels different enough to want to be their own state, just like the others. That's what matters most imo. From what I gather you don't speak the language so you're underestimating the difference in simplified/traditional characters amd pinyin vs zhuyin. They are significant and confusing to the uninitiated. I for one get confused and didn't learnt something new while looking at this image because I learnt the simplified version in school. Also, most of the time I understand what is written in traditional characters because of context. If I were given a character by itself my comprehension goes way down. Just look at the difference between traditional and simplified characters below. Note: In Chinese, small differences matter and can make completely different words. Here are a few examples with rough translations: 乌 (dark) and 鸟(bird) 耍(to play) and 要(to want) 蓝 (blue) and 篮 (basket)
This is so ignorant and stupid I had to log onto my account that I haven't been on for years to call you out.That or you are being intentionally deceitful. Why point out how small differences change the meaning of words? Completely irrelevant. All of China used to use traditional, (hence the word traditional) mainland decided to adopt a new set of characters to make the writing process easier, Taiwan didn't, that does not make the languages culturally different, the characters still have the same meanings, old Chinese books are in traditional, most adult Chinese people can read traditional Chinese. And please, don't even get me started on the pinyin/zhuyin... lol.
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EPT
