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Peeano
Netherlands4676 Posts
2nd try average 25.5 3rd try average 27.4 4th try average 26.7 5th try average 26.5 6th try average 26.4 My single lowest was 18.4 on the hairball and my single highest was 37.4 on the flip kick. I think I failed like 7 times. I think the animations are very misleading and it actually put me in a bad mood.  | ||
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Maluk
France987 Posts
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Pwere
Canada1556 Posts
24,23,41,25,28 , avg 26 27,34,34,32,29, avg 31 27,24,23,34,26, avg 27 Relaxed: 27,29,30,33,29, avg 29 Basically, anything 25 and below is the hairball, 26 and up is the weird kick flip. Relaxed = me playing shadow footsies until I get the signal. The thing I don't like about this test is that, usually, you switch to block high when your opponent stands up/hops, but in this case, it will cause you to fail. I'd really like a test where it only matters if you're holding down on the first hit frame. Still, fun stuff. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
Maluk wrote: Average : couldn't even block one hit lol. I think you must be doing it wrong because it doesnt matter if the Overhead attack animation finishes or not, you still record a number even if its like 1000 or more. @Pwere, thanks for the stats and for doing it relaxed too. Im not sure what you mean by 'playing shadow footsies until i get the signal' because you cant move the character around. But either way, if you mean Relaxed = doing the test in a chilled out way and not as fast as you possibly can, then ideal. Thats part of what I am looking for. Your relaxed numbers are essentially the same speed as your full concentration numbers which is kind of funny. Thanks for posting your stats everyone, keep em coming. | ||
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virpi
Germany3598 Posts
1st run (avg 24) 24 24 25 24 23 2nd run (avg 22) 22 25 24 20 21 3rd run (avg 22) 19 25 22 24 22 getting below 20 is kind of hard for me. but at least I'm consistent :D | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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Pwere
Canada1556 Posts
On April 10 2015 02:53 CardinalAllin wrote: I meant that I was thinking about what my character would be doing while keeping an eye out. Relaxed enough to still have fun and not feel stressed, relaxed muscles, etc.I think you must be doing it wrong because it doesnt matter if the Overhead attack animation finishes or not, you still record a number even if its like 1000 or more. @Pwere, thanks for the stats and for doing it relaxed too. Im not sure what you mean by 'playing shadow footsies until i get the signal' because you cant move the character around. But either way, if you mean Relaxed = doing the test in a chilled out way and not as fast as you possibly can, then ideal. Thats part of what I am looking for. Your relaxed numbers are essentially the same speed as your full concentration numbers which is kind of funny. Thanks for posting your stats everyone, keep em coming. However, that number is misleading because I got mostly hairballs, and I was getting better at that point. I'd say I was about 4f slower on average, which is still surprisingly low for how much better it felt. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
I meant that I was thinking about what my character would be doing while keeping an eye out. Relaxed enough to still have fun and not feel stressed, relaxed muscles, etc. Yes thats ideal, thanks. Also, you say you were getting better at that point. This is certainly true, and its actually a good thing because it simulates a real online game eg starcraft where you get more accustomed to scenarios through repetition and anticipation etc. I have collected all the stats you guys have shared and will do a little summary in a few days. This is your last chance to share your results, consider this the final bump. | ||
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d3v
3 Posts
That said, this needed a few clarifications. On April 01 2015 07:44 CardinalAllin wrote: Bit of info for people who like this sort of thing. 1000 milliseconds in a second If a game is running at 60 frames a second, then each frame lasts for 1000/60 = 16.666666 milliseconds. If a game is running at 120 frames a second, (and your screen is 120Hz) then it would be 8.333333 milliseconds. The test in the OP is 60fps. A modern ‘esport’ that is being developed as of 2015 should be 120fps in my opinion though. All fighting games (or at least the good ones) are locked to 60fps. These games are basically state machines and alot of data is locked to specific frames. Even in modern, 3D animated games, specific data is still tied to each individual "frame" such as hit boxes, hurt boxes, invulnerability, armor, etc. Also, attacks are still timed in terms of frames (start-up, active frames, recovery) and alot of the math to determine if something can combo (a second hit can be applied before the opponent comes out of hit stun) or is safe (recovered before the opponent comes out of block stun) is calculated based on frames. Seeing as Teyah's test was made using a 2D fighting game as a base, there's a reason it only does run at 60fps. On April 01 2015 07:44 CardinalAllin wrote: Its important to note that the above test is not even close to a fair test because we are all using vastly different hardware; inputs of mouse/keyboard, the computer itself, and the output monitor. Since we're working with "frames (60ths or a second), you can find a baseline based on this. Basically, a true "tournament spec" setup is one where the input gets processed in less than 1 frame, or 16.67ms (plus the natural 1-3 frames of lag inherent in processing, which the program should already account for). The FGC has already put up alot of resources for this such as DisplayLag.com. That said, unless you have a really, really bad setup, (high input lag monitor plus laggy controls) you shouldn't be getting anything over a frame of lag on your computer. | ||
Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
I tried it out and it's one of the cooler reaction tests I've taken. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17182 Posts
Same thing without all the bullshit. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
Post your stats! I see now that the way I juxtaposed these 2 sentences makes it look like a possible criticism of the test: The test in the OP is 60fps. A modern ‘esport’ that is being developed as of 2015 should be 120fps in my opinion though. That wasnt the intention though. The OP is not about Fighting games in particular. Its about game design. I know that present day Fighting games are locked at 60. not even close to a fair test because we are all using vastly different hardware I knew when I wrote this it was gunna come back to bite me. I was too dramatic. You reckon that the hardware differences will result in only 1 frame of lag. Thats interesting. Can you tell us about the travel time of the keys as your finger presses down. It is my understanding that this alone is enough to add several frames. A question, does the internet lag affect results much? @Manitou The test you linked already has a recent thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/481373-whats-your-reaction-time The whole reason I made this thread is because the test you link is a different kind of reaction. It only tests detecting a change and not choosing the correct response. | ||
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d3v
3 Posts
On April 27 2015 19:05 CardinalAllin wrote: Hello D3v. What a pleasant surprise. Post your stats! My average, last I tried was 28.6 frames On April 27 2015 19:05 CardinalAllin wrote: I see now that the way I juxtaposed these 2 sentences makes it look like a possible criticism of the test: That wasnt the intention though. The OP is not about Fighting games in particular. Its about game design. I know that present day Fighting games are locked at 60. 60 is probably as good a baseline as any since not everybody is going to have the hardware to run at 120fps, what with most games just hitting 30. More importantly, a game that you can bump to 120fps (in other words, not locked to 60fps), isn't based on frames like fighting games are (so the code runs regardless of frames). On April 27 2015 19:05 CardinalAllin wrote: I knew when I wrote this it was gunna come back to bite me. I was too dramatic. You reckon that the hardware differences will result in only 1 frame of lag. Thats interesting. Any system will have a native amount of delay that you can't really do anything about. For example, the old CPS2 arcade board that ran Street Fighter II had around 4 frames of native delay. More importantly, most modern games are can be designed so that the amount of native delay doesn't really change. For example, Street Fighter IV on PC doesn't really change the amount of delay no matter what the hardware is, as long as it's within the minimum recommended specs (the sole exception is that V-sync adds 1 frame of delay, but even that can be controlled). So the only things that need to be taken into consideration are the delay on the controllers and on the display. The fastest monitors have about 09ms of lag. Meanwhile, at least based on our own testing, most controllers can go as low as 03ms (with an averayge of 06ms) of delay so that's within the 16.67 (not 12.5 that I mistakenly put down earlier) for each frame. On April 27 2015 19:05 CardinalAllin wrote: Can you tell us about the travel time of the keys as your finger presses down. It is my understanding that this alone is enough to add several frames. A question, does the internet lag affect results much? Yes it does, which is why fighting games are still best played offline. Though the bigger issue tends to be variable delay, which is input delay that changes as the ping time between two players changes. This is why stuff like rollback netcode has been developed as we believe that it's more important to keep the delay fixed (and let small rollbacks handle desyncs) than screwing up people's timing by slowing the game. Too bad not many devs are using it. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
fault fault fault fault what? | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
and it doesn't even matter if I block it before it hits me? I stood around after got hit by it thinking I'll just fail this one but no, I press something and got like 800 frames LOL why the hell would you call that an overhead... okay trying again. you should disable mouse click as a click... so I can actually copy/paste the text here instead of writing it down, I tried to copy and everything disspeared. okay there's another overhead attack, i see... most of mine are faults tbh haha... the cartwheel is pretty hard to queue in, I started looking for the pantie shot as a queue, but maybe there's a better one avg: 28 avg: 28 avg: 27 | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
D3v: I agree most people dont have the hardware for 120fps. The main thing being a 120Hz monitor. They are just coming down into the good value for money window, and probably in 2 years time they will be affordable for people looking to upgrade. Other hardware considerations are ofcourse the actual grunt of the machine itself to process the frames. If a developer wanted to start making a new game today that was similar to Street Fighter IV then I agree that 120 would be unwise as a design goal due to the average gamers specs and monitor. If I were to be very very general, I would say most games run at 30 on consoles but most games on PC can be run at 60 on the average 'enthusiast' spec machine (not necessarily with all max settings). And yes, current games that can run at 120 frames are mostly Shooters that are not lockstep. You keep mixing professional setting vs us doing an online reaction time test using random hardware and using the internet. May I quickly just repost the whole paragraph for context: Its important to note that the above test is not even close to a fair test because we are all using vastly different hardware; inputs of mouse/keyboard, the computer itself, and the output monitor. With that caveat, Im gunna say: A good average is around 21 frames. Up to 25 average would be pretty good too, especially on first try. To get below 30 frames average is quite easy. To get below 35 is certainly easy. To get 18 consistently might be possible. To get lower might be possible too but extremely hard. The only reason I put in the caveat was to cover my arse from looking silly if I had just said 'A good average is 21 frames' all on its own. But anyway, from your second post it is now clear that we both agree that for doing this test here at home on our various hardware and over the internet that it is far from a fair test, and that there is a plus or minus window of atleast 4 frames. Regarding my very loaded sentence: A modern ‘esport’ that is being developed as of 2015 should be 120fps in my opinion though. This is for a 2d lockstep game. The Esport game I personally envisage is a brood war RTS type of thing, designed specifically for the professional setting that you have described; tightly controlled high spec hardware, LAN connection. If I were to begin developing a 2d fighting game today, I would personally also make it 2d and 120 frames per second. This isnt to say that I deem 60fps games as less skillful or anything like that. Random fact, Im using a model M keyboard from 1991 and a rollerball mouse without a scroll wheel (seriously someone send me a spare mouse). Netcode; the choices made for how to implement this is vital ofcourse. If I were to start making an Esport game today I would make it for LAN first and foremost as I previously mentioned. However, it would be wise to develop an online version too otherwise the game would probably not ever get popular. It is important to consider it a separate version entirely in my opinion. I agree with you that the best solution is to "keep the delay fixed" rather " than screwing up people's timing by slowing the game." Overall, the discussion in the thread comments has concentrated on hardware. Its a critical element to consider when designing a game, especially an Esport which is what this thread is mostly concerned with ultimately. There were several other topics brought up in the OP such as: -Comfortable speed (for beginners and relaxed sessions) VS Top skill speed (for best gameplay at professional level) And how you can design to accomodate both and all inbetween on a scale. -Animation considerations (again for best gameplay at professional level, not just eye candy) @D3v thanks for sharing the juicy details here such as: The fastest monitors have about 09ms of lag. Meanwhile, at least based on our own testing, most controllers can go as low as 03ms (with an averayge of 06ms) of delay Its great to read the views of a Fighting game expert such as yourself so cheers. Game designers have much to learn specifically from the Fighting game scene (in many areas not just hardware). I myself have a considerable amount of notes from Fighting games Ive studied. | ||
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d3v
3 Posts
On April 28 2015 06:37 CardinalAllin wrote: May I quickly just repost the whole paragraph for context: The only reason I put in the caveat was to cover my arse from looking silly if I had just said 'A good average is 21 frames' all on its own. But anyway, from your second post it is now clear that we both agree that for doing this test here at home on our various hardware and over the internet that it is far from a fair test, and that there is a plus or minus window of atleast 4 frames. What we really need to find out is how many frames of delay Flash has, plus whether or not things like browser choice affect it. Then we can get the baseline level of delay for the system. That said, with as thorough I I know Teyah to be, that's probably already considered in his calculations. On April 28 2015 06:37 CardinalAllin wrote: Regarding my very loaded sentence: This is for a 2d lockstep game. The Esport game I personally envisage is a brood war RTS type of thing, designed specifically for the professional setting that you have described; tightly controlled high spec hardware, LAN connection. If I were to begin developing a 2d fighting game today, I would personally also make it 2d and 120 frames per second. This isnt to say that I deem 60fps games as less skillful or anything like that. Random fact, Im using a model M keyboard from 1991 and a rollerball mouse without a scroll wheel (seriously someone send me a spare mouse). 120fps for a fighting game might cause some problems though, especially with how certain data is calculated by the community. The bigger issue though why no one is trying to do this (even the more forward thinking indies) is that since most things are tied to frames, doubling the amount of frames means double the work and more chances for making mistakes. That said, it would be interesting if someone made a fighting game that ran at 120fps, but that simply repeated the data from one frame to the next (so what would take one frame, would now take 2 frames). On April 28 2015 06:37 CardinalAllin wrote: Netcode; the choices made for how to implement this is vital ofcourse. If I were to start making an Esport game today I would make it for LAN first and foremost as I previously mentioned. However, it would be wise to develop an online version too otherwise the game would probably not ever get popular. It is important to consider it a separate version entirely in my opinion. I agree with you that the best solution is to "keep the delay fixed" rather " than screwing up people's timing by slowing the game." Sadly, some devs still don't seem to agree. On April 28 2015 06:37 CardinalAllin wrote:ssional level, not just eye candy) @D3v thanks for sharing the juicy details here such as: Its great to read the views of a Fighting game expert such as yourself so cheers. Game designers have much to learn specifically from the Fighting game scene (in many areas not just hardware). I myself have a considerable amount of notes from Fighting games Ive studied. Our genre, due to having been codified during the 90s, is one that's most sensitive to things like lag and such. The move to HDTVs has actually caused alot of issues once it was discovered that modern stuff is slower than old school CRTs. This is why once we learned this, we started looking more and more into sources of input delay. | ||
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Bulgogi
United States60 Posts
24 22.2 19.3 22.2 21.9 Avg 21.9 I probably could get better if I could distinguish between Millia's hopping low kick and the overheads better. The low kick leads to a lot of false positives for me. | ||
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