This thread has a link to a Reaction speed test that mimics defending overhead attacks in a Fighting game. Some of you may have seen this test before, its fun. The test is good because you have to click ONLY when an overhead attack comes at you, and not when a low or medium attack comes.
There are 2 overhead attacks that might be performed, one is a cartwheel kick, the other is a big yellow thing. You have to defend 5 overhead attacks which come randomly interspersed with normal attacks which you must ignore, and then it calculates your average. If you click when it is not an overhead attack, then you lose all your progress for that set of 5, and you fail the set. There is an attack where the sprite stabs with her hair. Its annoying because it is bright yellow and the animation extends quite high on the screen, so its easy to think its an overhead attack by mistake. So be careful about that one.
Please, no cheating. Please post all of your stats, and not just your best one. This is really important.
So before you start get a notepad up.
You can have one trial go to get the hang of things. But after that, please post ALL 5 of your scores and the average for each set that you do.
And record how many sets you fail. Its quite addictive, and you can certainly improve your score dramatically with practice.
So for example: 1st set (trial so ignore) 2nd set 35.4 34 36 35 Average 35
3rd set 28 27 28 29 28 Average 28
4th set 26.3 28 Failed Failed 26
5th set 22 18 20 24 21 Average 21
Please write down how many times you failed. And then ofcourse share your best times too!
Its really important that you share your worst result (your 2nd try or atleast one of your earliest tries) aswell as your best. And how many times you tried overall too.
Once you are finished, there is one last thing I would like you to do. Redo the test but this time dont do it as fast as you can, but instead do it at a pace that you find 'relaxing but still snappy'. Try to find the pace that you personally find to be 'fun while still keeping you on your toes'. For example, try to imagine you are playing a hypothetical new RTS game, and you are microing your units. You see the enemy units raise their weapons, they are about to shoot and you must react by pressing dodge left. Try to work out what you would find to be a fair, comfortable and fun reaction speed. NOT your fastest possible.
Bit of info for people who like this sort of thing.
1000 milliseconds in a second If a game is running at 60 frames a second, then each frame lasts for 1000/60 = 16.666666 milliseconds. If a game is running at 120 frames a second, (and your screen is 120Hz) then it would be 8.333333 milliseconds.
The test in the OP is 60fps. A modern ‘esport’ that is being developed as of 2015 should be 120fps in my opinion though.
An average persons reaction time is roughly 250ms plus or minus 20 I would say. This is pure reaction, doesn’t include anticipation or training which would occur over time in a computer game. Note it also doesn’t include choosing a response from multiple options. It is simply detecting a change.
Many people are slower, their reaction time is around 290 milliseconds. Some people are slower still. Sub 350 would include most people. Sub 400 would really safely include most people. Sub 500 includes everyone. Fastest reaction time is 120-140 milliseconds.
Its important to note that the above test is not even close to a fair test because we are all using vastly different hardware; inputs of mouse/keyboard, the computer itself, and the output monitor. With that caveat, Im gunna say: A good average is around 21 frames. Up to 25 average would be pretty good too, especially on first try. To get below 30 frames average is quite easy. To get below 35 is certainly easy. To get 18 consistently might be possible. To get lower might be possible too but extremely hard.
So for game design, we have to choose what is a comfortable speed and what is a more skilful speed: If a game was balanced around 35 frames for reaction time, this is a comfortable number, still fairly crisp but not stressful. 21 frames is a bit stressful and might feel a bit luck based. That said, 23 frames is actually not that hard to get, especially with just a little practice. The developer of a game has to plan for the skill improvement of the players over time.
The ideal mechanic would be that experts can execute attacks that give the opponent less time to react to. But noobs can only execute attacks that have a long time to defensively react to. Eg1, a noob picks up the game for the first time and presses attack button. It’s the most simple to execute attack in the game and therefore it is also the easiest to defend against. The attack has a long animation period in which it can be blocked. Eg2, an expert is playing, and he does a complex combo attack. The number of inputs is higher, and requires precision timing to chain together. The output is an attack with a smaller animation period in which it can be blocked.
This means that experts can play the game at a faster pace, but noobs can also enjoy the game. Low skill floor, high skill ceiling. Its similar to how in tennis, a noob cant hit the ball hard or accurately to attack. Similarly this weak attack makes it easier for his noob opponent to defend by getting the ball back. Tennis experts on the other hand are able to hit the ball fast and accurately, so the attack is much stronger. But at the same time an expert defender is faster on his feet than a noob and has faster reactions so he can return the ball.
If there are 60 frames per second then: 30 frames = half a second = 500 milliseconds 24 frames = 40 percent of a second = 400 milliseconds 18 frames = 30 percent of a second = 300 milliseconds
Its important to remember how the actual animation itself is incredibly important too. Change of silhouette, change of colour, change of position are 3 of the main things that the eye can detect. It takes atleast 50ms for the human eye to see a change, and atleast 50ms for the brain to process and send impulse to the finger muscles. But this is not taking into account the actual animation itself. Consider a character that does 2 very similar punches and uses exactly the same animation for the first 8 frames, and then on the 9th frame it clearly divides into a 'red hand punch' or a 'blue palm slap'. Lets pretend the defender has to press crouch to dodge the red attack but jump to dodge the blue attack. So even though the attack started 9 frames ago, the person cant react until much later, even if his eye has detected an incoming attack from frame 1.
----------EDIT ADDED RESULTS---------- The following is posted on page 3: Here are the stats. Some people posted 1 result, some people posted three results, and one person posted 6 results. Of the people that posted more than 1 result, the difference over time was not significant. So I have simply calculated the mean average of all the results. One person posted his ‘relaxed’ results. It was the same speed as his other 3 results at full concentration.
Raw data (each line is a different person) 25.2, 21.9, 22 30.4, 26.7, 27.5 23, 21 23.3, 27.7 25.2, 25.5, 27.4, 26.7, 26.5, 26.4 26, 31, 27 24, 22, 22 24.8 23.6 28.6 28, 28, 27 21.9
Sum = 740.3
29 total bits of data
740.3/29 = 25.53 frames
Mean average = 25.53 frames
Now lets work out what that is in milliseconds.
We previously worked out that if there are 60 frames in a second then 30 frames = half a second = 500 milliseconds 24 frames = 40 percent of a second = 400 milliseconds 18 frames = 30 percent of a second = 300 milliseconds
To work out the 24 frames example: 60 frames/24 frames=2.5 100/2.5=40 which is 40 percent of a second. So that’s 400 milliseconds.
Putting our newly calculated average of 25.53 frames into the formula: 60 frames/25.53 frames=2.35 100/2.35=42.55 which is 42.5 percent of a second. So that’s 425 milliseconds
Lets compare this number to the other reaction time test where you only have to react to a change and do NOT have to also choose a response. The average reaction time in the other thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/481373-whats-your-reaction-time was around 250 milliseconds. This would represent getting 15 frames in the OP test.
So no surprises; reaction time is significantly slower when you also have to choose a response. This is a much more applicable statistic for video game design. 425 milliseconds, not 250 milliseconds, cool.
Thanks for the help guys.
This little experiment has helped back up my thinking that for a future hypothetical realtime strategy esport, you should design around a flow between actions of half a second/500 milliseconds/30 frames (in a 60 fps game) or indeed 60 frames in a 120fps game. (Ofcourse you can still allow faster players/professionals to play much quicker)
Press a button to start. Wait for an attack. If not an overhead attack, don't press anything and continue waiting. If an overhead attack (flip kick or hairball), press any button. Repeat x 5.
If the game is stuck for some reason, I suggest just pressing buttons until the 5 trials are over.
I would also suggest playing it a bit to get used to the animation of the flip kick and hairball, as well as the other attacks, so that you are on a more even ground. Fighting game players would have a bit of advantage in picking up the animation cues and have an advantage in the reaction time.
ok you dont click . why did you say you click? "all you have to do is click" . i was sitting there like a spastic waiting for something to happen then got like 4 faults
fault 24.2 24.7 22.6 29.2
18.6 24.3 22.8 fault (double press) fault
fault 19.4 748 24.5 fault
yeah i cbf with this
played Soul Blade (the original Soul Calibur) so much when i was a kid i was able to go infinite in survival mode (turned it off after 108 kills)
this simulates that basically, which is fucking cool.
so yeah if you like this go download Soul Blade and a PS1 emulator
the game is like broodwar quality, literally top 3 games of all time
the story mode has like 3 unique endings for each character, and during cutscenes your character is presented holding your selected weapon, something i dont think you see in games 10 fucking years later. oh yeah and there are like 10 unlockable weapons per character
Haha, I was clicking as well after pressing spacebar... first trial was like 40 seconds.
Also, don't use spacebar. Use an arrow key or something, the spacebar is heavy and adds to the delay.
My thoughts are: Flip kick is much harder for me to react to. Jumping hairball attack is much easier to react to, but I get it confused with the jump back low split kick thing.
i find it disorientating coz i want to move around and just block everything.. i mean its cool but im like .. i need to fucking play soul blade like a pro now and not ffuck around with this 1 button shit
edit: dude since you're so interested in game mechanics you should definitely check out Soul Blade (playstation 1) coz its a great example of this done to perfection imo
This feels completely irrelevant to fighting games. If you're up against a player, or even an AI, there's clear signs that an attack is coming. They'll be comboing, or you'll be playing footsies and dancing in and out of range.
There's an extreme difference between that and waiting 10 seconds to push a button.
players do their best to mask their intentions so you are left with 1 thing to react to , the attack animation.
soul blade is amazing because its longest combos are 4-5 hits and the animations are designed in such a way that a good player is able to recognise and block all of them.
it is not a "mechanically challenging" game (you don't have to press fast or time your presses) but instead comes down to mental trades with your opponent where you are trying to get each other to fuck up your decision-making whilst both being on a timer (you can only block so many attacks before you are unable to block for the rest of that game)
On April 07 2015 07:11 FFGenerations wrote: i completely disagree
players do their best to mask their intentions so you are left with 1 thing to react to , the attack animation.
Of course they do.
But you're not sitting in front of them for 10 seconds and waiting for them to push an attack button. Reacting to specific moves in a game of footsies is a vastly different experience than watching two motionless characters in a corner with randomized inputs with massive intervals in between.
theres no difference.... if you are able to discern attack animations , regardless of whether you are "playing footsie" or standing still next to your opponent, then you will be able to block them
it is a different experience to a fighting game of course but it is still the fundamental mechanic that they are built from. if the player is unable to discern attack animations within an appropriate timeframe then the game becomes one of chance
in a well designed fighting game you CAN just stand there like a lemon and block every attack that comes your way (if you are good)
On April 07 2015 07:24 FFGenerations wrote: theres no difference.... if you are able to discern attack animations , regardless of whether you are "playing footsie" or standing still next to your opponent, then you will be able to block them
it is a different experience to a fighting game of course but it is still the fundamental mechanic that they are built from. if the player is unable to discern attack animations within an appropriate timeframe then the game becomes one of chance
Well, maybe it's just me, but my problem with these kind of "reaction test" games is never "oh no, it's so fast, I can't react". It's "fuck this is boring, I'm going to start thinking about other things".
On April 07 2015 07:24 FFGenerations wrote: theres no difference.... if you are able to discern attack animations , regardless of whether you are "playing footsie" or standing still next to your opponent, then you will be able to block them
it is a different experience to a fighting game of course but it is still the fundamental mechanic that they are built from. if the player is unable to discern attack animations within an appropriate timeframe then the game becomes one of chance
Well, maybe it's just me, but my problem with these kind of "reaction test" games is never "oh no, it's so fast, I can't react". It's "fuck this is boring, I'm going to start thinking about other things".
yeah well i said that in my first post already lol :D
Right, my 4rd try (I really didnt get it on the first 3, kept failing.) 3rd try: 30.4
5th try: 26.7 6th try: 27.5
It seems I should be able to get sub 30 consistently. All the different attacks are super distracting though especially when a single test can take either 30 seconds or TWO MINUTES because of the massive delay between overhead attacks sometimes.
Haven't really seen improvement yet but I'm fairly happy with my score!
On April 07 2015 06:52 FFGenerations wrote: played Soul Blade (the original Soul Calibur) so much when i was a kid i was able to go infinite in survival mode (turned it off after 108 kills)
this simulates that basically, which is fucking cool.
so yeah if you like this go download Soul Blade and a PS1 emulator
the game is like broodwar quality, literally top 3 games of all time
the story mode has like 3 unique endings for each character, and during cutscenes your character is presented holding your selected weapon, something i dont think you see in games 10 fucking years later. oh yeah and there are like 10 unlockable weapons per character
i seem to react slightly slower to the flip kick than to the hairball
seems the flip kick has a longer animation time and my brain feels like my response is "timing" to the end of the longer animation when it hits the character
EPT
