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On December 22 2022 09:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2022 23:46 killa_robot wrote:Lets be real here man. This is Canada. The longest any of those girls will stay in jail is 5 years, and I would bet the ones under 14 won't even go to jail. Our justice system is a joke. the problem is... If you stiffen up sentences you must pair it with substantial rehabilitation. That is very , very expensive and no one wants to spend the money to do such a thing. It is the best long term solution... its also , by far, the most expensive. If you stiffen up the sentencing while offering nothing solid rehab-wise then you end up steering soft criminals towards a path of evolving into hardened criminals.
The implication being these girls are somehow soft criminals? You're pretty hardcore if even murder isn't enough to label someone a hard criminal to you.
I agree in principal rehabilitation is good, for the right crimes. Things like murder or just random acts of violence like this in general shouldn't be treated as a "they just didn't understand what they were doing" situation though. I don't see any of them being worthwhile to rehabilitate to begin with.
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On December 23 2022 01:25 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2022 01:23 killa_robot wrote:On December 22 2022 09:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 21 2022 23:46 killa_robot wrote:Lets be real here man. This is Canada. The longest any of those girls will stay in jail is 5 years, and I would bet the ones under 14 won't even go to jail. Our justice system is a joke. the problem is... If you stiffen up sentences you must pair it with substantial rehabilitation. That is very , very expensive and no one wants to spend the money to do such a thing. It is the best long term solution... its also , by far, the most expensive. If you stiffen up the sentencing while offering nothing solid rehab-wise then you end up steering soft criminals towards a path of evolving into hardened criminals. The implication being these girls are somehow soft criminals? You're pretty hardcore if even murder isn't enough to label someone a hard criminal to you. I agree in principal rehabilitation is good, for the right crimes. Things like murder or just random acts of violence like this in general shouldn't be treated as a "they just didn't understand what they were doing" situation though. I don't see any of them being worthwhile to rehabilitate to begin with. Considering what is known publically about these girls and the crime that is bold take. Then when you take into account all the research and success with rehabilitation vs just harsh punishment, it is clearly a bad one.
i don't think we know enough about these girls to say whether or not they are worthy of rehabilitation.
Not rehabbing them all and having them all be lost forever is a giant financial black hole. As vile as Karla Homolka's rapes and murders were ... her successful rehab is saving taxpayers millions of dollars.
On December 23 2022 01:23 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2022 09:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 21 2022 23:46 killa_robot wrote:Lets be real here man. This is Canada. The longest any of those girls will stay in jail is 5 years, and I would bet the ones under 14 won't even go to jail. Our justice system is a joke. the problem is... If you stiffen up sentences you must pair it with substantial rehabilitation. That is very , very expensive and no one wants to spend the money to do such a thing. It is the best long term solution... its also , by far, the most expensive. If you stiffen up the sentencing while offering nothing solid rehab-wise then you end up steering soft criminals towards a path of evolving into hardened criminals. The implication being these girls are somehow soft criminals? You're pretty hardcore if even murder isn't enough to label someone a hard criminal to you. I agree in principal rehabilitation is good, for the right crimes. Things like murder or just random acts of violence like this in general shouldn't be treated as a "they just didn't understand what they were doing" situation though. I don't see any of them being worthwhile to rehabilitate to begin with.
i did not say these girls and especially the gang leader were "soft criminals". Hardened criminals deserve hard time and one must accept the fact that some hardened criminals will never become productive members of society.
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From reading the article it certainly seems possible that some of these girls are well on to the path of "hardened criminal" as-is. Three of them already known to police, the group at large not having clear direct connections outside of this event, several weapons being confiscated from the group after arrest, and a 'swarming' event happening earlier that evening. It doesn't fully convert my read to "Fuck 'em, jail them for life" but it does stray me away from the idea that it's a group of friends who felt threatened and lethally protected themselves.
Granted, I'm all for rehabilitation where possible, but as others have mentioned we don't live in a world of infinite resources.
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According to witnesses the alleged perpetrators were angry when a homeless woman would not give up a bottle of liquor. The homeless man tried to protect the homeless woman and he was stabbed to death. Also, the gang swarmed someone earlier that same night.
Taking in these facts it seems congruent with a 2nd degree murder charge.
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Do you think that's what I was suggesting?
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My response is depression, mostly.
There's a chance that a jail sentence is enough punishment to "scare straight" some number of those teens, but it's also such a fucked network of broken homes and trauma that it's quite probable there is no salvation for some people. In that case they're only gonna be a burden on society and there is no 'correct' answers anywhere in there. As ridiculous as your "Go back in time and enstate a program early enough to teach these girls never to be criminals in the first place" solution is, I appreciate it for its optimism and hope that these are simple enough problems to solve.
I don't think they are. As mentioned, I'm all for rehabilitation where possible, but I fundamentally accept the idea that some people are too broken to fix and the best you can offer them is as few opportunities to make their lives worse as possible. In a world of infinite resources, some combination of genuinely caring social work, therapy, and restriction on their life would do well to minimize this, but those are services most functioning-ass humans can't provide for themselves, nevermind guarantee results from.
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In a conversation speculating about what to do with the given scenario, suggesting something that requires time travel to be actionable is ridiculous, yes. You taking personal offense to that is on you!
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Alright! Congrats on solving the issue, then!
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On December 23 2022 10:03 JimmiC wrote:
My stupid idea is to follow the programs existing in other countries that work better than the ones we are using now. Dumb I know when it is so much easier to not change and pretend like no one could possibly know how to make it better.
Nice strawman on the time machine and personal insult, classy.
and these countries have less than 40 million people spread across 87 bazillion square kilometres beside a country offering way better opportunities to its best and hardest working?
I'm way more concerned about Canada losing Nurses and Techies than rehabbing 8 criminal teenage scumbags.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/nurses-leaving-canada-doubled-in-the-last-five-years-amid-health-care-crisis-1.6126807
Canada's best tech school , the University of Waterloo has evolved into a training ground for 20 year olds headed to the USA.
Canadians' birth rate is far below 2.0. Thus, the country must rely on immigration to grow. The only way Canada can continue attract top notch immigrants like it has for decades is with top notch opportunities. This is Canada's most fundamental issue. Rehabbing criminals is not of fundamental importance.
Sadly, Canada no longer offers the level of opportunity the USA offers.
On December 23 2022 10:03 JimmiC wrote:
Dumb I know when it is so much easier to not change and pretend like no one could possibly know how to make it better.
The smartest thing talented, hard-working, ambitious young Canadians can do is ... leave.
As Toronto Raptors player Fred VanVleet says : "Bet On Your$elf".
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White said she has seen a major increase in Ontario nurses looking to move south in the last two years, especially since the passing of Bill 124, a law that limits wage growth in the public sector to one per cent a year for three years.
Yikes. 1% raises when inflation is what it is.
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On December 26 2022 05:11 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +White said she has seen a major increase in Ontario nurses looking to move south in the last two years, especially since the passing of Bill 124, a law that limits wage growth in the public sector to one per cent a year for three years. Yikes. 1% raises when inflation is what it is.
Horrific working conditions for nurses in Ontario, Canada. Meanwhile , there is a fuck tonne of virtue signalling about "front line workers". Its all talk and no action.
The problem with Ontario is that energy prices used to be the lowest in NA. Now, Ontario has the most expensive "clean energy" in NA and this undercuts Ontario's entire manufacturing base. Prior to 2007 and the "green energy movement" Ontario was an economic juggernaut with governments operating on a balanced budget. Watching Ontario decline is just sad. It used to be a great place to live.
In 2005, less than 5% of Ontario workers made minimum wage... today its like 15%. Just sad man. Minimum wage workers not only make fuck-all money... they get treated like garbage.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/75-004-m/75-004-m2019003-eng.htm
In Ontario, 4th year students at Canada's best tech school get co-op jobs paying $80/hour USD per hour in the USA. OR they can take jobs paying $40/hour CDN. The best, hardest working, most ambitious students all head south.
https://i.imgur.com/D964JiI.jpeg
Canadian companies offering software/tech projects that usually revolve around catching up to capabilities their competition already has. So all a software creator does is imitate and emulate stuff that are already done elsewhere. OTOH, US companies offer projects that lead their industry down new unexplored pathways. These projects are far more fascinating AND far more financially rewarding.
One can make 90K in upstate New York and own a fully detached house a 15 minute drive from the office. Making 90K in Toronto gets you a 400 square foot condo a smelly 1 hour commute from your job.
Prior to 2007 all the Canadian//American young couples I knew had a tough decision as to whether they lived together in the USA or Canada. The "Toronto, Ontario// New York state" decision was a tough one. This is no longer the case. It is USA ... all the way.
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Canada11607 Posts
Or maybe the economy was stifled due to restrictions for the last couple years and it's finally recovering without said restrictions?
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the unemployment rate in june 2018 was 6% ; it was 4.9% in june 2022.
PS: nice to see Canada win the world junior gold in their red and whites ... those all black uniforms are awful and black is not a colour of Canada.
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gj juniors again... i liked the black and red but i agree the red and whites are better.
You gotta be some kinda fucked in the head if you're rooting for dougy...
I genuinely don't think you're stupid so i need an expiation for why you would even consider voting that way.
Like... do you care about people?
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EPT
