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On January 10 2015 05:23 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:13 DinoMight wrote:
There is nothing in Islam that says that you should murder people who draw pictures of the prophet.
There IS something in Islam that says you should not murder.
These people are lunatics. They and all terrorists who claim to do things like this in the name of Islam are brainwashed and have no real understanding of what Islam is.
As someone who lived in Paris for a long time as a kid I am very saddened by these events.
Je suis Charlie. in my opinion, religion has little to do with it. you can find anything in any religious scripture to justify any actions. it has to do with attacking identity which happens to be islam. someone could do offensive stuff to the emperor of japan and some japanese nationalists wouldnt just sit by while their leader is being mocked publicly. and this can apply to any group of people and what they do when their identity is mocked depends on their "culture" i guess, some take it more serious than others and "freedom of speech" to some is not a valid excuse.
These Japanese nationalists wouldn't storm into an office and start murdering a dozen people...
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On January 10 2015 05:23 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:21 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:20 OtherWorld wrote:On January 10 2015 05:13 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:04 Mikau wrote:On January 10 2015 04:43 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 04:26 Ragnarork wrote:On January 10 2015 04:24 SiroKO wrote:On January 10 2015 04:03 Mikau wrote:On January 10 2015 03:54 SiroKO wrote:
The most revulsing thing to me is the hypocrisy of the French politicians and PC media.
Everytime there's an Islamic terrorist attack, they refer to the perpetrators as "monsters" or "terrorists" to deprive them from their ISLAMIC ideology.
The truth is, these people motivations are based on a particular, but extremly well-spread and well-documented, understanding of Islam.
So absolute respect for the FN (nationalist, economically at the left, societally at the right) politicians who dare to call these bastards by their names : Islamic terrorists.
Not giving a fuck about being boycotted by the PC media, or losing the muslim votes.
Truth against professional political liers.
That's the most revolting thing? Not the, I don't know, 12 people that were murdered in cold blood? You have weird priorities here. While it is important to realise what motivated these monsters, the last thing we need is to alienate the (European) Muslim community as a whole. Not because of fear of reprecussion or some misguided sense of political correctness, but because at the end of the day the only way to get through this current wave of terrorism is us working together. We need to realise that over 99% of Muslims are not the enemy and that they hate what happened as much, and probably more so (because it makes them have to defend themselves) than we do. Decent muslims are most likely a majority among muslims, but this 1% ratio is total crap. There are huge issues regarding the muslim community in France. It is a community with an extreme high proportions of delinquents/criminals, with an extreme high proportion of people on welfare, who refuse to mix with non-muslims (unless they convert and the children get muslims : which is a principle of this religion), who do not cease to be religious (quite the contrary), and who often time remains nationalist toward their "country of origin" while not giving a fuck about France. Now, you can add terrorism to the list of reasons why they're hated. Most non-muslims living near muslims tend to dislike them as a whole. Disliking them as a whole does not mean disliking every single one of them, which would be crazy. It's just considering that the ratio of bastards among that community is too damn high and that there's a specific problem. Seriously, try to see by yourself, and not believe bullshit spewed by hateful people. "Don't touch my country". Yeah sure, these completely don't care. I would be really happy if the "islamic community" in France define themselves as french first and foremost and actually start to make other remember. I'm a teacher in the 93. In some of my class none of my student consider themselves "french". They say "I'm serb", "I'm algerian", etc. They're great kids, with great qualities and values (altho they suck as student for the most part  ) but it's true that overall, they don't feel "french", and more than that in some place they refuse to consider themself as french. I happen to have some algerian blood myself, from my father, and a lot of kids try, at some point of the year, to find clues on that. As soon as they know, they jump every where saying "he's algerian !", while I'm not. Last year I was teaching in a city with an important jewish community and they all thought I was jew because of my name... We, as a society, lost ourselves in particularism and refused to define ourselves through our common membership in the Republic, as citizens. By refusing to defend those transcendental values - the republic, the nation, the citizenship - we've forgot generations of kids for whom being french is not necessarily an evidence. At least, this tragedy might force us to see positively our common membership. Country borders are just lines on a map. Feeling connected to people because you were born (or worse yet, live) inside those arbitrary lines is even more nonsensical than being connected to people because you believe common things. If anything being proud of your country and heritage is doing far more harm than good. Why don't we start by defining ourselves as human beings for once? Country borders yes. But living with people, having a sense of community and common membership, living under the same law and feeling those laws are legitimate : all those things have value and are needed to live in a society. The desire to be part of a group is a human trait, and when the state and the nation are weak, people feel they belong to a cult, a religion or a mafia. I personally prefer the nation. Note that I am an internationalist, but I'm not a cosmopolitanist, nor a nihilist. Tbh nationalism did as much damage, if not more, as any other group, whatever its basis is. Nationalism is an extremism. It's irrelevant. But then feeling like you belong to a cult, religion or mafia is not a problem as long as it's moderate and not pushed into extremism?
I don't see a problem with belonging to a cult, the problem is when there are no other transcendantal value to make people feel they also belong to something bigger. I can be a christian, french, who feel he also belong to the human race. But if I define myself as a christian and nothing else, it's a problem for France, and if I define myself as a french and nothing else, well it's a problem for humanity I guess.
On January 10 2015 05:23 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:21 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:20 OtherWorld wrote:On January 10 2015 05:13 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:04 Mikau wrote:On January 10 2015 04:43 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 04:26 Ragnarork wrote:On January 10 2015 04:24 SiroKO wrote:On January 10 2015 04:03 Mikau wrote:On January 10 2015 03:54 SiroKO wrote:
The most revulsing thing to me is the hypocrisy of the French politicians and PC media.
Everytime there's an Islamic terrorist attack, they refer to the perpetrators as "monsters" or "terrorists" to deprive them from their ISLAMIC ideology.
The truth is, these people motivations are based on a particular, but extremly well-spread and well-documented, understanding of Islam.
So absolute respect for the FN (nationalist, economically at the left, societally at the right) politicians who dare to call these bastards by their names : Islamic terrorists.
Not giving a fuck about being boycotted by the PC media, or losing the muslim votes.
Truth against professional political liers.
That's the most revolting thing? Not the, I don't know, 12 people that were murdered in cold blood? You have weird priorities here. While it is important to realise what motivated these monsters, the last thing we need is to alienate the (European) Muslim community as a whole. Not because of fear of reprecussion or some misguided sense of political correctness, but because at the end of the day the only way to get through this current wave of terrorism is us working together. We need to realise that over 99% of Muslims are not the enemy and that they hate what happened as much, and probably more so (because it makes them have to defend themselves) than we do. Decent muslims are most likely a majority among muslims, but this 1% ratio is total crap. There are huge issues regarding the muslim community in France. It is a community with an extreme high proportions of delinquents/criminals, with an extreme high proportion of people on welfare, who refuse to mix with non-muslims (unless they convert and the children get muslims : which is a principle of this religion), who do not cease to be religious (quite the contrary), and who often time remains nationalist toward their "country of origin" while not giving a fuck about France. Now, you can add terrorism to the list of reasons why they're hated. Most non-muslims living near muslims tend to dislike them as a whole. Disliking them as a whole does not mean disliking every single one of them, which would be crazy. It's just considering that the ratio of bastards among that community is too damn high and that there's a specific problem. Seriously, try to see by yourself, and not believe bullshit spewed by hateful people. https://twitter.com/nellyolson75555/status/553547348723654657"Don't touch my country". Yeah sure, these completely don't care. I would be really happy if the "islamic community" in France define themselves as french first and foremost and actually start to make other remember. I'm a teacher in the 93. In some of my class none of my student consider themselves "french". They say "I'm serb", "I'm algerian", etc. They're great kids, with great qualities and values (altho they suck as student for the most part ) but it's true that overall, they don't feel "french", and more than that in some place they refuse to consider themself as french. I happen to have some algerian blood myself, from my father, and a lot of kids try, at some point of the year, to find clues on that. As soon as they know, they jump every where saying "he's algerian !", while I'm not. Last year I was teaching in a city with an important jewish community and they all thought I was jew because of my name... We, as a society, lost ourselves in particularism and refused to define ourselves through our common membership in the Republic, as citizens. By refusing to defend those transcendental values - the republic, the nation, the citizenship - we've forgot generations of kids for whom being french is not necessarily an evidence. At least, this tragedy might force us to see positively our common membership. Country borders are just lines on a map. Feeling connected to people because you were born (or worse yet, live) inside those arbitrary lines is even more nonsensical than being connected to people because you believe common things. If anything being proud of your country and heritage is doing far more harm than good. Why don't we start by defining ourselves as human beings for once? Country borders yes. But living with people, having a sense of community and common membership, living under the same law and feeling those laws are legitimate : all those things have value and are needed to live in a society. The desire to be part of a group is a human trait, and when the state and the nation are weak, people feel they belong to a cult, a religion or a mafia. I personally prefer the nation. Note that I am an internationalist, but I'm not a cosmopolitanist, nor a nihilist. Tbh nationalism did as much damage, if not more, as any other group, whatever its basis is. Nationalism is an extremism. It's irrelevant. I think that a group of people unifying under a common language, food, traditions, etc. is not unreasonable.
Yeah but the word nationalism usually refer, in my mind, to extreme expression of that, such as the nazi regime or the vichy period.
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On January 10 2015 05:23 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:21 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:20 OtherWorld wrote:On January 10 2015 05:13 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:04 Mikau wrote:On January 10 2015 04:43 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 04:26 Ragnarork wrote:On January 10 2015 04:24 SiroKO wrote:On January 10 2015 04:03 Mikau wrote:On January 10 2015 03:54 SiroKO wrote:
The most revulsing thing to me is the hypocrisy of the French politicians and PC media.
Everytime there's an Islamic terrorist attack, they refer to the perpetrators as "monsters" or "terrorists" to deprive them from their ISLAMIC ideology.
The truth is, these people motivations are based on a particular, but extremly well-spread and well-documented, understanding of Islam.
So absolute respect for the FN (nationalist, economically at the left, societally at the right) politicians who dare to call these bastards by their names : Islamic terrorists.
Not giving a fuck about being boycotted by the PC media, or losing the muslim votes.
Truth against professional political liers.
That's the most revolting thing? Not the, I don't know, 12 people that were murdered in cold blood? You have weird priorities here. While it is important to realise what motivated these monsters, the last thing we need is to alienate the (European) Muslim community as a whole. Not because of fear of reprecussion or some misguided sense of political correctness, but because at the end of the day the only way to get through this current wave of terrorism is us working together. We need to realise that over 99% of Muslims are not the enemy and that they hate what happened as much, and probably more so (because it makes them have to defend themselves) than we do. Decent muslims are most likely a majority among muslims, but this 1% ratio is total crap. There are huge issues regarding the muslim community in France. It is a community with an extreme high proportions of delinquents/criminals, with an extreme high proportion of people on welfare, who refuse to mix with non-muslims (unless they convert and the children get muslims : which is a principle of this religion), who do not cease to be religious (quite the contrary), and who often time remains nationalist toward their "country of origin" while not giving a fuck about France. Now, you can add terrorism to the list of reasons why they're hated. Most non-muslims living near muslims tend to dislike them as a whole. Disliking them as a whole does not mean disliking every single one of them, which would be crazy. It's just considering that the ratio of bastards among that community is too damn high and that there's a specific problem. Seriously, try to see by yourself, and not believe bullshit spewed by hateful people. https://twitter.com/nellyolson75555/status/553547348723654657"Don't touch my country". Yeah sure, these completely don't care. I would be really happy if the "islamic community" in France define themselves as french first and foremost and actually start to make other remember. I'm a teacher in the 93. In some of my class none of my student consider themselves "french". They say "I'm serb", "I'm algerian", etc. They're great kids, with great qualities and values (altho they suck as student for the most part ) but it's true that overall, they don't feel "french", and more than that in some place they refuse to consider themself as french. I happen to have some algerian blood myself, from my father, and a lot of kids try, at some point of the year, to find clues on that. As soon as they know, they jump every where saying "he's algerian !", while I'm not. Last year I was teaching in a city with an important jewish community and they all thought I was jew because of my name... We, as a society, lost ourselves in particularism and refused to define ourselves through our common membership in the Republic, as citizens. By refusing to defend those transcendental values - the republic, the nation, the citizenship - we've forgot generations of kids for whom being french is not necessarily an evidence. At least, this tragedy might force us to see positively our common membership. Country borders are just lines on a map. Feeling connected to people because you were born (or worse yet, live) inside those arbitrary lines is even more nonsensical than being connected to people because you believe common things. If anything being proud of your country and heritage is doing far more harm than good. Why don't we start by defining ourselves as human beings for once? Country borders yes. But living with people, having a sense of community and common membership, living under the same law and feeling those laws are legitimate : all those things have value and are needed to live in a society. The desire to be part of a group is a human trait, and when the state and the nation are weak, people feel they belong to a cult, a religion or a mafia. I personally prefer the nation. Note that I am an internationalist, but I'm not a cosmopolitanist, nor a nihilist. Tbh nationalism did as much damage, if not more, as any other group, whatever its basis is. Nationalism is an extremism. It's irrelevant. But then feeling like you belong to a cult, religion or mafia is not a problem as long as it's moderate and not pushed into extremism?
The problem is that people who claim to know the revealed truth of an absolute god can very rationally argue that there is no such thing as "moderation". Nations can take the wrong path, men made law can be misguided, but divine law can never change or be wrong, just by definition.
This isn't a problem as long as the core tenets of your religion are pacifist or anarchist, but if your religion claims to be the last revealed truth on this planet and actually allows you to go to war for it, things tend to not turn out so well.
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On January 10 2015 05:12 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 04:38 Makro wrote:
Not safe, you are warned, image of the terrorist running into the RAID and being shot (on the video you could see the hostage already dead before the police came)
I don't have the video it was broadcast on TV.
@ragnarok
really moving, should be shown on TV No NSFW images or videos please(read the modnote!)
sorry, i didn't see when i posted it and i just noticed right now
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On January 10 2015 05:26 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:23 OtherWorld wrote:On January 10 2015 05:21 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:20 OtherWorld wrote:On January 10 2015 05:13 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:04 Mikau wrote:On January 10 2015 04:43 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 04:26 Ragnarork wrote:On January 10 2015 04:24 SiroKO wrote:On January 10 2015 04:03 Mikau wrote:
[quote]
That's the most revolting thing? Not the, I don't know, 12 people that were murdered in cold blood? You have weird priorities here.
While it is important to realise what motivated these monsters, the last thing we need is to alienate the (European) Muslim community as a whole. Not because of fear of reprecussion or some misguided sense of political correctness, but because at the end of the day the only way to get through this current wave of terrorism is us working together. We need to realise that over 99% of Muslims are not the enemy and that they hate what happened as much, and probably more so (because it makes them have to defend themselves) than we do. Decent muslims are most likely a majority among muslims, but this 1% ratio is total crap. There are huge issues regarding the muslim community in France. It is a community with an extreme high proportions of delinquents/criminals, with an extreme high proportion of people on welfare, who refuse to mix with non-muslims (unless they convert and the children get muslims : which is a principle of this religion), who do not cease to be religious (quite the contrary), and who often time remains nationalist toward their "country of origin" while not giving a fuck about France. Now, you can add terrorism to the list of reasons why they're hated. Most non-muslims living near muslims tend to dislike them as a whole. Disliking them as a whole does not mean disliking every single one of them, which would be crazy. It's just considering that the ratio of bastards among that community is too damn high and that there's a specific problem. Seriously, try to see by yourself, and not believe bullshit spewed by hateful people. https://twitter.com/nellyolson75555/status/553547348723654657"Don't touch my country". Yeah sure, these completely don't care. I would be really happy if the "islamic community" in France define themselves as french first and foremost and actually start to make other remember. I'm a teacher in the 93. In some of my class none of my student consider themselves "french". They say "I'm serb", "I'm algerian", etc. They're great kids, with great qualities and values (altho they suck as student for the most part ) but it's true that overall, they don't feel "french", and more than that in some place they refuse to consider themself as french. I happen to have some algerian blood myself, from my father, and a lot of kids try, at some point of the year, to find clues on that. As soon as they know, they jump every where saying "he's algerian !", while I'm not. Last year I was teaching in a city with an important jewish community and they all thought I was jew because of my name... We, as a society, lost ourselves in particularism and refused to define ourselves through our common membership in the Republic, as citizens. By refusing to defend those transcendental values - the republic, the nation, the citizenship - we've forgot generations of kids for whom being french is not necessarily an evidence. At least, this tragedy might force us to see positively our common membership. Country borders are just lines on a map. Feeling connected to people because you were born (or worse yet, live) inside those arbitrary lines is even more nonsensical than being connected to people because you believe common things. If anything being proud of your country and heritage is doing far more harm than good. Why don't we start by defining ourselves as human beings for once? Country borders yes. But living with people, having a sense of community and common membership, living under the same law and feeling those laws are legitimate : all those things have value and are needed to live in a society. The desire to be part of a group is a human trait, and when the state and the nation are weak, people feel they belong to a cult, a religion or a mafia. I personally prefer the nation. Note that I am an internationalist, but I'm not a cosmopolitanist, nor a nihilist. Tbh nationalism did as much damage, if not more, as any other group, whatever its basis is. Nationalism is an extremism. It's irrelevant. But then feeling like you belong to a cult, religion or mafia is not a problem as long as it's moderate and not pushed into extremism? I don't see a problem with belonging to a cult, the problem is when there are no other transcendantal value to make people feel they also belong to something bigger. I can be a christian, french, who feel he also belong to the human race. But if I define myself as a christian and nothing else, it's a problem for France, and if I define myself as a french and nothing else, well it's a problem for humanity I guess. Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:23 DinoMight wrote:On January 10 2015 05:21 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:20 OtherWorld wrote:On January 10 2015 05:13 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:04 Mikau wrote:On January 10 2015 04:43 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 04:26 Ragnarork wrote:On January 10 2015 04:24 SiroKO wrote:On January 10 2015 04:03 Mikau wrote:
[quote]
That's the most revolting thing? Not the, I don't know, 12 people that were murdered in cold blood? You have weird priorities here.
While it is important to realise what motivated these monsters, the last thing we need is to alienate the (European) Muslim community as a whole. Not because of fear of reprecussion or some misguided sense of political correctness, but because at the end of the day the only way to get through this current wave of terrorism is us working together. We need to realise that over 99% of Muslims are not the enemy and that they hate what happened as much, and probably more so (because it makes them have to defend themselves) than we do. Decent muslims are most likely a majority among muslims, but this 1% ratio is total crap. There are huge issues regarding the muslim community in France. It is a community with an extreme high proportions of delinquents/criminals, with an extreme high proportion of people on welfare, who refuse to mix with non-muslims (unless they convert and the children get muslims : which is a principle of this religion), who do not cease to be religious (quite the contrary), and who often time remains nationalist toward their "country of origin" while not giving a fuck about France. Now, you can add terrorism to the list of reasons why they're hated. Most non-muslims living near muslims tend to dislike them as a whole. Disliking them as a whole does not mean disliking every single one of them, which would be crazy. It's just considering that the ratio of bastards among that community is too damn high and that there's a specific problem. Seriously, try to see by yourself, and not believe bullshit spewed by hateful people. https://twitter.com/nellyolson75555/status/553547348723654657"Don't touch my country". Yeah sure, these completely don't care. I would be really happy if the "islamic community" in France define themselves as french first and foremost and actually start to make other remember. I'm a teacher in the 93. In some of my class none of my student consider themselves "french". They say "I'm serb", "I'm algerian", etc. They're great kids, with great qualities and values (altho they suck as student for the most part ) but it's true that overall, they don't feel "french", and more than that in some place they refuse to consider themself as french. I happen to have some algerian blood myself, from my father, and a lot of kids try, at some point of the year, to find clues on that. As soon as they know, they jump every where saying "he's algerian !", while I'm not. Last year I was teaching in a city with an important jewish community and they all thought I was jew because of my name... We, as a society, lost ourselves in particularism and refused to define ourselves through our common membership in the Republic, as citizens. By refusing to defend those transcendental values - the republic, the nation, the citizenship - we've forgot generations of kids for whom being french is not necessarily an evidence. At least, this tragedy might force us to see positively our common membership. Country borders are just lines on a map. Feeling connected to people because you were born (or worse yet, live) inside those arbitrary lines is even more nonsensical than being connected to people because you believe common things. If anything being proud of your country and heritage is doing far more harm than good. Why don't we start by defining ourselves as human beings for once? Country borders yes. But living with people, having a sense of community and common membership, living under the same law and feeling those laws are legitimate : all those things have value and are needed to live in a society. The desire to be part of a group is a human trait, and when the state and the nation are weak, people feel they belong to a cult, a religion or a mafia. I personally prefer the nation. Note that I am an internationalist, but I'm not a cosmopolitanist, nor a nihilist. Tbh nationalism did as much damage, if not more, as any other group, whatever its basis is. Nationalism is an extremism. It's irrelevant. I think that a group of people unifying under a common language, food, traditions, etc. is not unreasonable. Yeah but the word nationalism usually refer, in my mind, to extreme expression of that, such as the nazi regime or the vichy period.
I agree with you that "ultra-nationalism" (the term commonly used to refer to Nazi era Germany, for example) is a serious problem. But "nationalism" is not as extreme.
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France17333 Posts
On January 10 2015 05:27 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:23 OtherWorld wrote:On January 10 2015 05:21 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:20 OtherWorld wrote:On January 10 2015 05:13 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:04 Mikau wrote:On January 10 2015 04:43 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 04:26 Ragnarork wrote:On January 10 2015 04:24 SiroKO wrote:On January 10 2015 04:03 Mikau wrote:
[quote]
That's the most revolting thing? Not the, I don't know, 12 people that were murdered in cold blood? You have weird priorities here.
While it is important to realise what motivated these monsters, the last thing we need is to alienate the (European) Muslim community as a whole. Not because of fear of reprecussion or some misguided sense of political correctness, but because at the end of the day the only way to get through this current wave of terrorism is us working together. We need to realise that over 99% of Muslims are not the enemy and that they hate what happened as much, and probably more so (because it makes them have to defend themselves) than we do. Decent muslims are most likely a majority among muslims, but this 1% ratio is total crap. There are huge issues regarding the muslim community in France. It is a community with an extreme high proportions of delinquents/criminals, with an extreme high proportion of people on welfare, who refuse to mix with non-muslims (unless they convert and the children get muslims : which is a principle of this religion), who do not cease to be religious (quite the contrary), and who often time remains nationalist toward their "country of origin" while not giving a fuck about France. Now, you can add terrorism to the list of reasons why they're hated. Most non-muslims living near muslims tend to dislike them as a whole. Disliking them as a whole does not mean disliking every single one of them, which would be crazy. It's just considering that the ratio of bastards among that community is too damn high and that there's a specific problem. Seriously, try to see by yourself, and not believe bullshit spewed by hateful people. https://twitter.com/nellyolson75555/status/553547348723654657"Don't touch my country". Yeah sure, these completely don't care. I would be really happy if the "islamic community" in France define themselves as french first and foremost and actually start to make other remember. I'm a teacher in the 93. In some of my class none of my student consider themselves "french". They say "I'm serb", "I'm algerian", etc. They're great kids, with great qualities and values (altho they suck as student for the most part ) but it's true that overall, they don't feel "french", and more than that in some place they refuse to consider themself as french. I happen to have some algerian blood myself, from my father, and a lot of kids try, at some point of the year, to find clues on that. As soon as they know, they jump every where saying "he's algerian !", while I'm not. Last year I was teaching in a city with an important jewish community and they all thought I was jew because of my name... We, as a society, lost ourselves in particularism and refused to define ourselves through our common membership in the Republic, as citizens. By refusing to defend those transcendental values - the republic, the nation, the citizenship - we've forgot generations of kids for whom being french is not necessarily an evidence. At least, this tragedy might force us to see positively our common membership. Country borders are just lines on a map. Feeling connected to people because you were born (or worse yet, live) inside those arbitrary lines is even more nonsensical than being connected to people because you believe common things. If anything being proud of your country and heritage is doing far more harm than good. Why don't we start by defining ourselves as human beings for once? Country borders yes. But living with people, having a sense of community and common membership, living under the same law and feeling those laws are legitimate : all those things have value and are needed to live in a society. The desire to be part of a group is a human trait, and when the state and the nation are weak, people feel they belong to a cult, a religion or a mafia. I personally prefer the nation. Note that I am an internationalist, but I'm not a cosmopolitanist, nor a nihilist. Tbh nationalism did as much damage, if not more, as any other group, whatever its basis is. Nationalism is an extremism. It's irrelevant. But then feeling like you belong to a cult, religion or mafia is not a problem as long as it's moderate and not pushed into extremism? The problem is that people who claim to know the revealed truth of an absolute god can very rationally argue that there is no such thing as "moderation". Nations can take the wrong path, men made law can be misguided, but divine law can never change or be wrong.
I dunno, the opposite extreme exists too. Divine law can be wrong, hence for example the Catholic Church's change of point of view on the Sun/Earth thing. Men made law can prove to be dangerous, hence the various genocides that happened for non-religious reasons.
And I mean there are religious people who don't claim to know the revealed truth of an absolute god, they just believe in their god and that's it. But we're starting to derail heavily here so I'll stop there.
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On January 10 2015 05:26 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:23 jinorazi wrote:On January 10 2015 05:13 DinoMight wrote:
There is nothing in Islam that says that you should murder people who draw pictures of the prophet.
There IS something in Islam that says you should not murder.
These people are lunatics. They and all terrorists who claim to do things like this in the name of Islam are brainwashed and have no real understanding of what Islam is.
As someone who lived in Paris for a long time as a kid I am very saddened by these events.
Je suis Charlie. in my opinion, religion has little to do with it. you can find anything in any religious scripture to justify any actions. it has to do with attacking identity which happens to be islam. someone could do offensive stuff to the emperor of japan and some japanese nationalists wouldnt just sit by while their leader is being mocked publicly. and this can apply to any group of people and what they do when their identity is mocked depends on their "culture" i guess, some take it more serious than others and "freedom of speech" to some is not a valid excuse. These Japanese nationalists wouldn't storm into an office and start murdering a dozen people...
of course not, but like i said, how a group behaves will depend on their culture and not everyone is not civilized and it'll be naive to expect a civilized behavior from everyone.
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On January 10 2015 05:27 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:23 OtherWorld wrote:On January 10 2015 05:21 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:20 OtherWorld wrote:On January 10 2015 05:13 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 05:04 Mikau wrote:On January 10 2015 04:43 WhiteDog wrote:On January 10 2015 04:26 Ragnarork wrote:On January 10 2015 04:24 SiroKO wrote:On January 10 2015 04:03 Mikau wrote:
[quote]
That's the most revolting thing? Not the, I don't know, 12 people that were murdered in cold blood? You have weird priorities here.
While it is important to realise what motivated these monsters, the last thing we need is to alienate the (European) Muslim community as a whole. Not because of fear of reprecussion or some misguided sense of political correctness, but because at the end of the day the only way to get through this current wave of terrorism is us working together. We need to realise that over 99% of Muslims are not the enemy and that they hate what happened as much, and probably more so (because it makes them have to defend themselves) than we do. Decent muslims are most likely a majority among muslims, but this 1% ratio is total crap. There are huge issues regarding the muslim community in France. It is a community with an extreme high proportions of delinquents/criminals, with an extreme high proportion of people on welfare, who refuse to mix with non-muslims (unless they convert and the children get muslims : which is a principle of this religion), who do not cease to be religious (quite the contrary), and who often time remains nationalist toward their "country of origin" while not giving a fuck about France. Now, you can add terrorism to the list of reasons why they're hated. Most non-muslims living near muslims tend to dislike them as a whole. Disliking them as a whole does not mean disliking every single one of them, which would be crazy. It's just considering that the ratio of bastards among that community is too damn high and that there's a specific problem. Seriously, try to see by yourself, and not believe bullshit spewed by hateful people. https://twitter.com/nellyolson75555/status/553547348723654657"Don't touch my country". Yeah sure, these completely don't care. I would be really happy if the "islamic community" in France define themselves as french first and foremost and actually start to make other remember. I'm a teacher in the 93. In some of my class none of my student consider themselves "french". They say "I'm serb", "I'm algerian", etc. They're great kids, with great qualities and values (altho they suck as student for the most part ) but it's true that overall, they don't feel "french", and more than that in some place they refuse to consider themself as french. I happen to have some algerian blood myself, from my father, and a lot of kids try, at some point of the year, to find clues on that. As soon as they know, they jump every where saying "he's algerian !", while I'm not. Last year I was teaching in a city with an important jewish community and they all thought I was jew because of my name... We, as a society, lost ourselves in particularism and refused to define ourselves through our common membership in the Republic, as citizens. By refusing to defend those transcendental values - the republic, the nation, the citizenship - we've forgot generations of kids for whom being french is not necessarily an evidence. At least, this tragedy might force us to see positively our common membership. Country borders are just lines on a map. Feeling connected to people because you were born (or worse yet, live) inside those arbitrary lines is even more nonsensical than being connected to people because you believe common things. If anything being proud of your country and heritage is doing far more harm than good. Why don't we start by defining ourselves as human beings for once? Country borders yes. But living with people, having a sense of community and common membership, living under the same law and feeling those laws are legitimate : all those things have value and are needed to live in a society. The desire to be part of a group is a human trait, and when the state and the nation are weak, people feel they belong to a cult, a religion or a mafia. I personally prefer the nation. Note that I am an internationalist, but I'm not a cosmopolitanist, nor a nihilist. Tbh nationalism did as much damage, if not more, as any other group, whatever its basis is. Nationalism is an extremism. It's irrelevant. But then feeling like you belong to a cult, religion or mafia is not a problem as long as it's moderate and not pushed into extremism? The problem is that people who claim to know the revealed truth of an absolute god can very rationally argue that there is no such thing as "moderation". Nations can take the wrong path, men made law can be misguided, but divine law can never change or be wrong, just by definition. This isn't a problem as long as the core tenets of your religion are pacifist or anarchist, but if your religion claims to be the last revealed truth on this planet and actually allows you to go to war for it, things tend to not turn out so well.
While this is true, the reason this leads to terrorism is not that "God can do whatever he wants." It's the fact that most of these people come from shitty backgrounds and have very little education.
Illiteracy in Egypt is 70% for example. When some crazy lunatic tells you that God wills you to kill this infidel and you can't read the book for yourself to know better... then what?
Not only that but the Quran is very complex - it's kind of like Shakespeare.. even if you are literate it's very difficult to understand. Formal arabic is almost a completely different language than the local dialects which are spoken on the street.
So you have people doing things in the name of religion based on what they've heard from others rather than from what they've read for themselves.
I know this won't solve everything, but if AT LEAST people practiced Islam the way it's written in the book this shit would never happen.
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I am French and I am damn proud to be French. I'm proud of the cultural heritage that we have and I'm proud of all the scientific and cultural things we've brought to the world. Some might see a country as being lines on the map; let them. I don't see a country as something as pitiful on lines on the map. Nor is a country the government in charge. A country is its people. I am very proud to be a French person. I am proud of the French and I'm proud of what France has accomplished in history.
That doesn't mean I look down on someone who isn't French. You can be proud of your country without being an idiot.
Culture is what defines human societies. Cultures aren't better or worse than one another, they're merely different. Different groups of human beings have agreed to different ways of living together, that is what a nation is. Being intolerant of other cultures is being idiotic; nothing is wrong with loving your own culture.
Slightly tangent but I feel it's something that needed to be said. I am glad these terrible events are over.
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Canada13389 Posts
Can we not discuss the inherent merits of religion?
These guys used religion to justify their actions.
What they did was wrong.
Very few adherents of religion use it to justify horrible things.
I think thats all we need to say about that.
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On January 10 2015 05:40 ZeromuS wrote:
Can we not discuss the inherent merits of religion?
These guys used religion to justify their actions.
What they did was wrong.
Very few adherents of religion use it to justify horrible things.
I think thats all we need to say about that.
Well I was just trying to set the record straight that what they did is not actually OK from a purely religious point of view and explaining it because Islam is not something many people know a lot about.
Like, just FYI - murdering someone over a cartoon is not actually okay. That's all.
I know it seems obvious but sometimes things need to be said.
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Canada13389 Posts
yeah I get it, but it derails the thread
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On January 10 2015 05:47 ZeromuS wrote:
yeah I get it, but it derails the thread
Got it. Well, on another note, I'm glad they caught them - though it would have been nice to get them alive for questioning.
Also, i don't know how often GIGN reacts to actual hostage cases but I'm shocked at how many people were killed both in Paris and in Sydney..
Maybe the movies have just skewed our perception of how hostage situations usually end but both of those ended in really high casualties. Does anyone have insight here?
EDIT - I guess it could be that the hostage takers really had no incentive/leverage to keep the hostages alive.
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On January 10 2015 05:50 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:47 ZeromuS wrote:
yeah I get it, but it derails the thread Got it. Well, on another note, I'm glad they caught them - though it would have been nice to get them alive for questioning. Also, i don't know how often GIGN reacts to actual hostage cases but I'm shocked at how many people were killed both in Paris and in Sydney.. Maybe the movies have just skewed our perception of how hostage situations usually end but both of those ended in really high casualties. Does anyone have insight here?
check your pm in 1 minute
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France17333 Posts
On January 10 2015 05:50 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:47 ZeromuS wrote:
yeah I get it, but it derails the thread Got it. Well, on another note, I'm glad they caught them - though it would have been nice to get them alive for questioning. Also, i don't know how often GIGN reacts to actual hostage cases but I'm shocked at how many people were killed both in Paris and in Sydney.. Maybe the movies have just skewed our perception of how hostage situations usually end but both of those ended in really high casualties. Does anyone have insight here? EDIT - I guess it could be that the hostage takers really had no incentive/leverage to keep the hostages alive.
The four dead hostages were dead before the police assault. GIGN acted probably in the best way possible, they got away with no dead policemen nor hostages. And you can't really capture alive someone who runs to you while firing.
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Anyway it's stupid to imagine these acts would come from a purely religious perspective. They come from a political context in the middle east, it's a fight from some groups toward whoever they perceive as the aggressor (justified aggression or not is irrelevant to explain the context). The religion is only the catalyst, the thing that makes it easier to make people "fight". It also acts as a link: "me in Syria is a muslim, you over there is a muslim french, we're brothers help us".
Arguing over what the book say or doesn't say is totally irrelevant in this context.
The Kouachi brothers have multiple times said to civilians on their flee "we won't harm you, you're a civilian". These people think they are at war. Then we learn they're financed by Al Qaeda in Yemen.
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On January 10 2015 05:50 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:47 ZeromuS wrote:
yeah I get it, but it derails the thread Got it. Well, on another note, I'm glad they caught them - though it would have been nice to get them alive for questioning. Also, i don't know how often GIGN reacts to actual hostage cases but I'm shocked at how many people were killed both in Paris and in Sydney.. Maybe the movies have just skewed our perception of how hostage situations usually end but both of those ended in really high casualties. Does anyone have insight here? EDIT - I guess it could be that the hostage takers really had no incentive/leverage to keep the hostages alive.
According to a Brazilian public security(it studies, among other things, how police forces behave) scholar, in Europe the police is more willing to go in in these type of situations(low number of hostages) to show they won't negotiate with terrorists.
Before making up your mind wait for someone to confirm or correct me though. And I think that is irrelevant in this case, seeing as most of the hostages were killed before the police did anything.
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On January 10 2015 05:55 rezoacken wrote:
Anyway it's stupid to imagine these acts would come from a purely religious perspective. They come from a political context in the middle east, it's a fight from some groups toward whoever they perceive as the aggressor (justified aggression or not is irrelevant to explain the context). The religion is only the catalyst, the thing that makes it easier to make people "fight".
The Kouachi brothers have multiple times said to civilians on their flee "we won't harm you, you're a civilian". These people think they are at war. Then we learn they're financed by Al Qaeda in Yemen.
Ok thanks, re: GIGN, I wasn't aware that the hostages were dead before they arrived on the scene.
The thing that makes the least sense to me is that France has if not anything else been the strongest supporter of Palestine in the middle eastern conflict. They're probably the most important country to push for recognition based on how their global standing and how many Muslims live there.
So if there's a political agenda behind this attack I don't know what it is.
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On January 10 2015 05:27 Nyxisto wrote:
The problem is that people who claim to know the revealed truth of an absolute god can very rationally argue that there is no such thing as "moderation". Nations can take the wrong path, men made law can be misguided, but divine law can never change or be wrong, just by definition.
Tell that to Talos!
+ Show Spoiler +Or standard Christian doctrine ("progressive revelation," see Romans 2-7ish ).
More on topic, and what isn't being said enough: Bravo to the French authorities for their handling of an impossibly difficult situation. And prayers, best wishes and warmest feelings for the French people, secular, Christian and Muslim, in this incredibly trying time. Stay strong, and hold on to your ideals in spite of the attempts by extremists to divide you. We citizens of the two earliest modern democracies have more in common than either of us pretend, and we stand with you today as we did centuries ago. Long live France!
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On January 10 2015 05:58 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:55 rezoacken wrote:
Anyway it's stupid to imagine these acts would come from a purely religious perspective. They come from a political context in the middle east, it's a fight from some groups toward whoever they perceive as the aggressor (justified aggression or not is irrelevant to explain the context). The religion is only the catalyst, the thing that makes it easier to make people "fight".
The Kouachi brothers have multiple times said to civilians on their flee "we won't harm you, you're a civilian". These people think they are at war. Then we learn they're financed by Al Qaeda in Yemen. Ok thanks, re: GIGN, I wasn't aware that the hostages were dead before they arrived on the scene. The thing that makes the least sense to me is that France has if not anything else been the strongest supporter of Palestine in the middle eastern conflict. They're probably the most important country to push for recognition based on how their global standing and how many Muslims live there. So if there's a political agenda behind this attack I don't know what it is.
The last thing extremists want is a unified France. The best way to recruit more people to their cause is to make sure European muslims are marginalized. The attack generates an anti-Islam feeling, thus accomplishing that.
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EPT
