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On December 18 2014 12:44 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 11:37 ShadeR wrote:
Apologists like to point to Indonesia as the premier example of moderate peaceful Islam, but even there according to polls 18% of muslims support death for apostasy. Don't misquote statistics. 18% of the Indonesian muslims who believe Sharia law should be state law (72%) support death for apostasy (so it's more like 13%). Countries like Azerbaijan and Turkey on the other hand have muslim populations that barely support Sharia law at all (8% and 12% respectively). Kazakstani muslims support of death for apostasy is close to 3%. Turkish muslims are around 2%. Saying the best case is 1 in 5 is gross misrepresentation. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
Who cares if he misquoted the statistics? It's not like he was an order of magnitude off. What % of people in the United States, United Kingdom, or South Korea think that an apostate should be executed? I guarantee you it's not even 1%. That tells you something right there.
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On December 18 2014 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:I love how non-Muslims 'know' all about the Quran and 'Jihad'... I do not think this word means what you think it means. Jihad means "Struggle" not "Holy War" https://twitter.com/myjihadorgAs for Christians killing innocent Muslims (men, women and children) in the name of god/their religion... Show nested quote + "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it." Source
but bush is a liar everyone knows that
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On December 19 2014 01:55 Yacobs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 12:44 Scarecrow wrote:On December 18 2014 11:37 ShadeR wrote:
Apologists like to point to Indonesia as the premier example of moderate peaceful Islam, but even there according to polls 18% of muslims support death for apostasy. Don't misquote statistics. 18% of the Indonesian muslims who believe Sharia law should be state law (72%) support death for apostasy (so it's more like 13%). Countries like Azerbaijan and Turkey on the other hand have muslim populations that barely support Sharia law at all (8% and 12% respectively). Kazakstani muslims support of death for apostasy is close to 3%. Turkish muslims are around 2%. Saying the best case is 1 in 5 is gross misrepresentation. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ Who cares if he misquoted the statistics? It's not like he was an order of magnitude off. What % of people in the United States, United Kingdom, or South Korea think that an apostate should be executed? I guarantee you it's not even 1%. That tells you something right there.
All it tells you is that they're highly developed nations and it would have far more to do with socio-economic factors than simply not being muslim. He's also spreading false statistics and claiming muslim nations are at best 1 in 5 in favor of apostate killing when it's more like 1 in 33-50. You don't think that's worth correcting?
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On December 18 2014 12:53 yandere991 wrote:
Interesting how the Pakistan situation does not even warrant its own thread but this one gets so much attention. Baffles me sometimes on how we value the lives of people different to us.
It's also the narrative that counts. For instance, we'll see if the 8 Australian children stabbed to death gets it's own thread?
Either way, I wouldn't be surprised if no one on the news or here is going to 'do the responsible thing' and suggest Australians focus on "Australian born on Australian born/Aboriginal/Immigrant crime" instead of terrorism, since violence committed against Australian civilians from terrorists is miniscule by comparison?
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it's also media logic, people AND the media tend to favor stories about fates of individuals.
"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic. "
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On December 19 2014 18:28 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 01:55 Yacobs wrote:On December 18 2014 12:44 Scarecrow wrote:On December 18 2014 11:37 ShadeR wrote:
Apologists like to point to Indonesia as the premier example of moderate peaceful Islam, but even there according to polls 18% of muslims support death for apostasy. Don't misquote statistics. 18% of the Indonesian muslims who believe Sharia law should be state law (72%) support death for apostasy (so it's more like 13%). Countries like Azerbaijan and Turkey on the other hand have muslim populations that barely support Sharia law at all (8% and 12% respectively). Kazakstani muslims support of death for apostasy is close to 3%. Turkish muslims are around 2%. Saying the best case is 1 in 5 is gross misrepresentation. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ Who cares if he misquoted the statistics? It's not like he was an order of magnitude off. What % of people in the United States, United Kingdom, or South Korea think that an apostate should be executed? I guarantee you it's not even 1%. That tells you something right there. All it tells you is that they're highly developed nations and it would have far more to do with socio-economic factors than simply not being muslim. He's also spreading false statistics and claiming muslim nations are at best 1 in 5 in favor of apostate killing when it's more like 1 in 33-50. You don't think that's worth correcting?
Who says it's more so to do with socio-economic factors rather than Islam? Where do these medieval beliefs originate. They don't originate from economic systems, they originate in the Quran. That's why Muslims believe it, that's what they cite.
These sorts of regressive and barbaric views in countries with large Muslim populations are not fringe, in fact they are rather mainstream:
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Abbott is not a bright person. Fail analogy.
There is no connection between the belief in the Pope and the actions of the IRA. But there is a clear connection between fundamental belief in Islam and the actions of Monis, and Monis made a point that Islam was the motivation for his terrorist actions by using a shahada flag.
This is like the absurd GTA example earlier. If one of the teachings of GTA is to be a martyr for the faith, and millions of people credibly believed it and carried it out, and in their terrorist acts cite GTA as the motivation for their actions, then, yes, under those particular conditions GTA is responsible.
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Authorities' tentative approach appeared to be on display in relation to Monis' deeply disturbing letters to the families of Australian soldiers who had died in Afghanistan. The letters, some of which were hand delivered at soldiers' funerals, labelled the diggers murderers and horrified the families. Yet Monis boasted on his website that police had given him only a warning on April, 3, 2008, about sending the letters – a warning which he promised to ignore. He noted that a "Sergeant" had visited him and stated that from "now on he (Monis) would not be allowed to send any more letters to the family of Luke Worsley who was killed in Afghanistan" and that to continue to do so could result in a seven-year jail term. Monis then claims to have said: "If I realised it is necessary I will write a letter again, I don't care about seven years imprisonment when it comes to the security and interests of the country". Fairfax Media understands the meeting with the sergeant occurred on the instructions of the Worsley family who asked police to tell Monis to stop sending the letters and was therefore not associated with any official investigation. Monis was charged later in 2008 over the letters and convicted last year. Worsley an Australian commando had been killed during an operation in Afghanistan in 2007. Source: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/nsw/sydney-siege-gunman-man-haron-monis-warned-of-martin-place-protest-six-years-ago-20141219-12atru.html
Freedom of speech is dead in Australia.
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freedom of speech is overrated.
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On December 19 2014 23:34 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +Authorities' tentative approach appeared to be on display in relation to Monis' deeply disturbing letters to the families of Australian soldiers who had died in Afghanistan. The letters, some of which were hand delivered at soldiers' funerals, labelled the diggers murderers and horrified the families. Yet Monis boasted on his website that police had given him only a warning on April, 3, 2008, about sending the letters – a warning which he promised to ignore. He noted that a "Sergeant" had visited him and stated that from "now on he (Monis) would not be allowed to send any more letters to the family of Luke Worsley who was killed in Afghanistan" and that to continue to do so could result in a seven-year jail term. Monis then claims to have said: "If I realised it is necessary I will write a letter again, I don't care about seven years imprisonment when it comes to the security and interests of the country". Fairfax Media understands the meeting with the sergeant occurred on the instructions of the Worsley family who asked police to tell Monis to stop sending the letters and was therefore not associated with any official investigation. Monis was charged later in 2008 over the letters and convicted last year. Worsley an Australian commando had been killed during an operation in Afghanistan in 2007. Source: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/nsw/sydney-siege-gunman-man-haron-monis-warned-of-martin-place-protest-six-years-ago-20141219-12atru.html Freedom of speech is dead in Australia.
So every restraining order ever issued is a violation of freedom of speech? Freedom of speech does not give you the right to harass individuals, and being asked to stop by law enforcement on behalf of those individuals doesn't seem like a gross injustice to me.
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On December 19 2014 23:24 paralleluniverse wrote:Abbott is not a bright person. Fail analogy. There is no connection between the belief in the Pope and the actions of the IRA. But there is a clear connection between fundamental belief in Islam and the actions of Monis, and Monis made a point that Islam was the motivation for his terrorist actions by using a shahada flag. This is like the absurd GTA example earlier. If one of the teachings of GTA is to be a martyr for the faith, and millions of people credibly believed it and carried it out, and in their terrorist acts cite GTA as the motivation for their actions, then, yes, under those particular conditions GTA is responsible.
That is like saying that the Bible is responsible for slavery. Millions of people used to practice slavery and used the Bible as a justification. Do you then hold Catholicism responsible for slavery, even though it was practiced by civilizations since before Catholicism was a religion.
Religions have learnt to not take all of their religious text as gospel. This is why most Catholics don't condone the beating of slaves (which is allowed as long as they don't die), stoning rebellious children or rape (which is allowed if you then marry your victim) even if it is allowed by the Bible. The Bible even disallows eating fat and says to kill anyone who works on the Sabbath.
If you read Deuteronomy and Leviticus, there is a lot of ridiculous rules that are not enforced but are still officially part of the faith if you take a literal reading of the Bible. You have similar things with Islam but it is even more complicated due to the non linear nature of the Quran. Most followers disregard these but some fundamentalists use obscure verses to support their horrendous acts.
Please note that Catholicism is just used to illustrate a point as it is the largest religion in the Western world. I neither believe or endorse the teachings of the Bible but just meant to use it as an example to show how you should not blame a religious text for the actions of a madman. If someone professed that the teachings of the Invisible Pink Unicorn were to blame for their actions, it would be equally absurd.
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they're called Christians and not old testamentarians for a reason. The Sinai laws arguably don't apply any more after the Sermon on the Mount. The Jews have long departed from being a scripture based religion with half of the community identifying themselves as secular, and the Talmud being ten times longer than the old testament itself. This simply can't be said for Islam. In many countries literal interpretation of the text still constitutes state law.
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On December 19 2014 23:34 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +Authorities' tentative approach appeared to be on display in relation to Monis' deeply disturbing letters to the families of Australian soldiers who had died in Afghanistan. The letters, some of which were hand delivered at soldiers' funerals, labelled the diggers murderers and horrified the families. Yet Monis boasted on his website that police had given him only a warning on April, 3, 2008, about sending the letters – a warning which he promised to ignore. He noted that a "Sergeant" had visited him and stated that from "now on he (Monis) would not be allowed to send any more letters to the family of Luke Worsley who was killed in Afghanistan" and that to continue to do so could result in a seven-year jail term. Monis then claims to have said: "If I realised it is necessary I will write a letter again, I don't care about seven years imprisonment when it comes to the security and interests of the country". Fairfax Media understands the meeting with the sergeant occurred on the instructions of the Worsley family who asked police to tell Monis to stop sending the letters and was therefore not associated with any official investigation. Monis was charged later in 2008 over the letters and convicted last year. Worsley an Australian commando had been killed during an operation in Afghanistan in 2007. Source: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/nsw/sydney-siege-gunman-man-haron-monis-warned-of-martin-place-protest-six-years-ago-20141219-12atru.html Freedom of speech is dead in Australia.
In France it is for some time already 
Anyway I lived in Indonesia for a year, the country is mostly muslim but it's the same muslim as europe's christianism.
It's relaxed (no burkha and even tchador is rare (not sure about the spelling)). You have the muezzin every morning but it's just an habit to take, you learn to like it. Just posting this because it pains me when Indonesia (the first muslim country in population) is portrayed as some extremist country when, as I said, they are the same as us with christianism.
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On December 20 2014 03:44 Nyxisto wrote:
they're called Christians and not old testamentarians for a reason. The Sinai laws arguably don't apply any more after the Sermon on the Mount. The Jews have long departed from being a scripture based religion with half of the community identifying themselves as secular, and the Talmud being ten times longer than the old testament itself. This simply can't be said for Islam. In many countries literal interpretation of the text still constitutes state law.
You still have Christians who use a literal interpenetration of the Bible in order to calculate the age of the earth (young age creationists) and many other fundamentalists who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. (Jesus himself even notes that he did not come to abolish the laws of the prophets but to fulfill them). Similarly, most Muslims don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Quran but there are some that do.
If you look at the Western world at about 1500 AD, many countries based their laws heavily around the Bible. Some African countries in particular still do with the criminalization of homosexuality. The Muslim world is a similar length of time since the Quran was written (about 600 AD) and they are in a similar stage. This does not excuse these countries for any human rights violations that are carried out in the name of religion, but it does provide some historical context.
Additionally there are several Muslim countries that have secular governments like Turkey and Egypt. There are also many European countries that are not secular such as England, Spain and Sweden.
Also note that secularism does not mean that the religious law is taken as state law. I do agree that several Islamic countries are more closely aligned with their state religion than many of the Western countries noted above. Nevertheless, to state that Islam is the problem is a gross oversimplification and generalization.
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On December 20 2014 04:12 GreenAndOrangeTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2014 03:44 Nyxisto wrote:
they're called Christians and not old testamentarians for a reason. The Sinai laws arguably don't apply any more after the Sermon on the Mount. The Jews have long departed from being a scripture based religion with half of the community identifying themselves as secular, and the Talmud being ten times longer than the old testament itself. This simply can't be said for Islam. In many countries literal interpretation of the text still constitutes state law. You still have Christians who use a literal interpenetration of the Bible in order to calculate the age of the earth (young age creationists) and many other fundamentalists who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. (Jesus himself even notes that he did not come to abolish the laws of the prophets but to fulfill them). Similarly, most Muslims don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Quran but there are some that do. If you look at the Western world at about 1500 AD, many countries based their laws heavily around the Bible. Some African countries in particular still do with the criminalization of homosexuality. The Muslim world is a similar length of time since the Quran was written (about 600 AD) and they are in a similar stage. This does not excuse these countries for any human rights violations that are carried out in the name of religion, but it does provide some historical context. Additionally there are several Muslim countries that have secular governments like Turkey and Egypt. There are also many European countries that are not secular such as England, Spain and Sweden. Also note that secularism does not mean that the religious law is taken as state law. I do agree that several Islamic countries are more closely aligned with their state religion than many of the Western countries noted above. Nevertheless, to state that Islam is the problem is a gross oversimplification and generalization.
In any case, we are moving away from the real issue and that is that this is a terrible tragedy. My heart goes out to all those who are suffering.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On December 20 2014 03:21 GreenAndOrangeTurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 23:24 paralleluniverse wrote:Abbott is not a bright person. Fail analogy. There is no connection between the belief in the Pope and the actions of the IRA. But there is a clear connection between fundamental belief in Islam and the actions of Monis, and Monis made a point that Islam was the motivation for his terrorist actions by using a shahada flag. This is like the absurd GTA example earlier. If one of the teachings of GTA is to be a martyr for the faith, and millions of people credibly believed it and carried it out, and in their terrorist acts cite GTA as the motivation for their actions, then, yes, under those particular conditions GTA is responsible. That is like saying that the Bible is responsible for slavery. Millions of people used to practice slavery and used the Bible as a justification. Do you then hold Catholicism responsible for slavery, even though it was practiced by civilizations since before Catholicism was a religion. Religions have learnt to not take all of their religious text as gospel. This is why most Catholics don't condone the beating of slaves (which is allowed as long as they don't die), stoning rebellious children or rape (which is allowed if you then marry your victim) even if it is allowed by the Bible. The Bible even disallows eating fat and says to kill anyone who works on the Sabbath. If you read Deuteronomy and Leviticus, there is a lot of ridiculous rules that are not enforced but are still officially part of the faith if you take a literal reading of the Bible. You have similar things with Islam but it is even more complicated due to the non linear nature of the Quran. Most followers disregard these but some fundamentalists use obscure verses to support their horrendous acts. Please note that Catholicism is just used to illustrate a point as it is the largest religion in the Western world. I neither believe or endorse the teachings of the Bible but just meant to use it as an example to show how you should not blame a religious text for the actions of a madman. If someone professed that the teachings of the Invisible Pink Unicorn were to blame for their actions, it would be equally absurd.
The bible was responsible for some very awful crap.
Crusades, witch burnings, heretic killings.
We criticize that all the time about christianity.
And we will hold certain Islamic teachings to the same standard.
When a group ISIS men kill 150 women last week because they wouldn't convert to Islam and be married off, and then quote the Quran to justify their actions... when they buy female slaves and laugh while quoting the life if Mohammad doing the same thing.... I'm going to hold Islam partly responsible and justifiably so just by observing actual events that happened.
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On December 20 2014 05:46 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2014 03:21 GreenAndOrangeTurtle wrote:On December 19 2014 23:24 paralleluniverse wrote:Abbott is not a bright person. Fail analogy. There is no connection between the belief in the Pope and the actions of the IRA. But there is a clear connection between fundamental belief in Islam and the actions of Monis, and Monis made a point that Islam was the motivation for his terrorist actions by using a shahada flag. This is like the absurd GTA example earlier. If one of the teachings of GTA is to be a martyr for the faith, and millions of people credibly believed it and carried it out, and in their terrorist acts cite GTA as the motivation for their actions, then, yes, under those particular conditions GTA is responsible. That is like saying that the Bible is responsible for slavery. Millions of people used to practice slavery and used the Bible as a justification. Do you then hold Catholicism responsible for slavery, even though it was practiced by civilizations since before Catholicism was a religion. Religions have learnt to not take all of their religious text as gospel. This is why most Catholics don't condone the beating of slaves (which is allowed as long as they don't die), stoning rebellious children or rape (which is allowed if you then marry your victim) even if it is allowed by the Bible. The Bible even disallows eating fat and says to kill anyone who works on the Sabbath. If you read Deuteronomy and Leviticus, there is a lot of ridiculous rules that are not enforced but are still officially part of the faith if you take a literal reading of the Bible. You have similar things with Islam but it is even more complicated due to the non linear nature of the Quran. Most followers disregard these but some fundamentalists use obscure verses to support their horrendous acts. Please note that Catholicism is just used to illustrate a point as it is the largest religion in the Western world. I neither believe or endorse the teachings of the Bible but just meant to use it as an example to show how you should not blame a religious text for the actions of a madman. If someone professed that the teachings of the Invisible Pink Unicorn were to blame for their actions, it would be equally absurd. The bible was responsible for some very awful crap. Crusades, witch burnings, heretic killings. We criticize that all the time about christianity. And we will hold certain Islamic teachings to the same standard. When a group ISIS men kill 150 women last week because they wouldn't convert to Islam and be married off, and then quote the Quran to justify their actions... when they buy female slaves and laugh while quoting the life if Mohammad doing the same thing.... I'm going to hold Islam partly responsible and justifiably so just by observing actual events that happened.
It's interesting, because there are instances of those independent of any specific religion. For example, there have been some pedophilia scares (not talking about the ones in high government, but rather ones fostered by young DAs looking to bolster conviction records) that match up remarkably to witch hunts. Similarly, in Soviet Russia, there were many cases of "heretical" Communists being killed. Crusades are a little more complicated, but a comparison could be drawn to the United States' efforts to quash Communism in Vietnam, Guatemala, and even Cuba with the Bay of Pigs. The last probably bears the best resemblance, as there were troops sent in to reclaim a sort of Promised Land for the Cuban exiles.
The issue here appears to be something other than mysticism, which has its own pitfalls. It seems to be a harsh distinction between in- and out-groups, the construction of a forever-good Us and a forever-evil Them, that allows for such atrocities to be committed. Furthermore, demonizing Islam seems to be constructing an evil Them, which might itself lead to more such atrocities.
It's a specific pattern of thought that I believe is at fault, here, and if we are to overcome this obstacle, it must be through eliminating this pattern of thought in others and in ourselves. The latter is as important as the former, I would argue.
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Russian Federation3632 Posts
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-13.png)
