|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On October 28 2017 05:15 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. Illegally gathered evidence is not an evidence. This referendum was not held according to the law.
But then the law is whats preventing the evidence from being gathered. The whole point of UN support for self determination is to stop nations from just ignoring groups of people from wanting to be free because its against the nations law.
|
On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled.
Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them.
|
On October 28 2017 05:23 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:15 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. Illegally gathered evidence is not an evidence. This referendum was not held according to the law. But then the law is whats preventing the evidence from being gathered. The whole point of UN support for self determination is to stop nations from just ignoring groups of people from wanting to be free because its against the nations law.
UN rules are just non-enforceable declarations. I don't think the "right" for self determination is relevant to Catalan situation.
|
On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them.
The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist.
|
On October 28 2017 05:34 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them. The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist.
No, the reason Madrid doesn't want to allow referendums is not Catalonia. It's the Basque country. If they allow Catalonia to decide their faith with referendum, the basque will use this as an argument to hold a referendum of their own. And the situation there is quite different from the one in Catalonia.
|
On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen
Well, like the Venezuelan "dictatorship" did: you let it happen, then you ignore results.
(http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/venezuela-opposition-referendum-nicolas-maduro-2017-7/)
|
On October 28 2017 05:38 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:34 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them. The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist. No, the reason Madrid doesn't want to allow referendums is not Catalonia. It's the Basque country. If they allow Catalonia to decide their faith with referendum, the basque will use this as an argument to hold a referendum of their own. And the situation there is quite different from the one in Catalonia.
So we're going to not allow self determination to one group of people beacuse it would cause trouble with another group of people?
|
On October 28 2017 05:34 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them. The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist.
It's not about evidence, the PP would never allow a referendum. Full stop, there is no more talking from there. Either you work towards it with political forces that are pro-referendum (which exists) or for constitutional changes for more autonomy (which also exist), or you push the red line so hard that it stops those parties to be able to support you on your independent agenda (which is what happened the last national elections).
|
On October 28 2017 05:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen Well, like the Venezuelan "dictatorship" did: you let it happen, then you ignore results. ( http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/venezuela-opposition-referendum-nicolas-maduro-2017-7/)
Do you expect a rightwing party to tell their voters that they are not going to use the the empire of the law if they can to stop what they deem illegal ? That's like fucking candy for them, they are scoring points for free.
|
|
|
On October 28 2017 05:45 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:38 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:34 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:
[quote]
What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future?
Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that.
Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them. The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist. No, the reason Madrid doesn't want to allow referendums is not Catalonia. It's the Basque country. If they allow Catalonia to decide their faith with referendum, the basque will use this as an argument to hold a referendum of their own. And the situation there is quite different from the one in Catalonia. So we're going to not allow self determination to one group of people beacuse it would cause trouble with another group of people?
Nobody is stopping them to determine themselves. They have their language, their flag, their government... But they can't steal land.
I wonder what is your stance on Texas and California ? Should UN intervene(if they could... At this point UN is just a scarecrow), if at some point in the future 50.1% of them decide that they are "different" ?
|
On October 28 2017 05:54 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:41 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen Well, like the Venezuelan "dictatorship" did: you let it happen, then you ignore results. ( http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/venezuela-opposition-referendum-nicolas-maduro-2017-7/) Do you expect a rightwing party to tell their voters that they are not going to use the the empire of the law if they can to stop what they deem illegal ? That's like fucking candy for them, they are scoring points for free.
No, I don't expect a right-wing party to make any sense overall. But this is what they should have done. Rajoy talking to his base is petty in that kind of situation.
|
On October 28 2017 05:59 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:45 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:38 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:34 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:
[quote]
Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them. The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist. No, the reason Madrid doesn't want to allow referendums is not Catalonia. It's the Basque country. If they allow Catalonia to decide their faith with referendum, the basque will use this as an argument to hold a referendum of their own. And the situation there is quite different from the one in Catalonia. So we're going to not allow self determination to one group of people beacuse it would cause trouble with another group of people? Nobody is stopping them to determine themselves. They have their language, their flag, their government... But they can't steal land. I wonder what is your stance on Texas and California ? Should UN intervene(if they could... At this point UN is just a scarecrow), if at some point in the future 50.1% of them decide that they are "different" ?
You can't steal the land you live on. They don't have their government if they are under someone elses laws and their flag is toothless. Scotland has a national football team does Catalonia have a national football team?
If Texas and California serenely want to secede they can and I would hope that other countries would hold us accountable under the same circumstances. They wouldn't as their situations would be entirely different (their economies are much more reliant on the national relationship they have then Catalonia would be) but I would hope that htey would be given that option if it were in any way as serious as Catalonia is.
|
On October 28 2017 06:13 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:59 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:45 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:38 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:34 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:
[quote]
True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them. The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist. No, the reason Madrid doesn't want to allow referendums is not Catalonia. It's the Basque country. If they allow Catalonia to decide their faith with referendum, the basque will use this as an argument to hold a referendum of their own. And the situation there is quite different from the one in Catalonia. So we're going to not allow self determination to one group of people beacuse it would cause trouble with another group of people? Nobody is stopping them to determine themselves. They have their language, their flag, their government... But they can't steal land. I wonder what is your stance on Texas and California ? Should UN intervene(if they could... At this point UN is just a scarecrow), if at some point in the future 50.1% of them decide that they are "different" ? You can't steal the land you live on. They don't have their government if they are under someone elses laws and their flag is toothless. Scotland has a national football team does Catalonia have a national football team? If Texas and California serenely want to secede they can and I would hope that other countries would hold us accountable under the same circumstances. They wouldn't as their situations would be entirely different (their economies are much more reliant on the national relationship they have then Catalonia would be) but I would hope that htey would be given that option if it were in any way as serious as Catalonia is.
a bit besides the point but yeah the difference between California+Texas vs Catalonia exists but I'm not even sure which one is worse. An economy that is based on working with the rest of the country or an economy that's based on working with other nations.
Think Brexit times a million, probably for all 3 with suddenly having to look out for themselves and having nothing in place to secure the old trade deals.
Would a potential Catalonia even be part of the EU if it were to happen?
Not sure if this has been asked/answered before. Just got in here and too tired to read pages upon pages, sry 
|
On October 28 2017 06:51 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 06:13 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:59 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:45 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:38 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:34 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:
[quote]
Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them.
Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them.
Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them. The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist. No, the reason Madrid doesn't want to allow referendums is not Catalonia. It's the Basque country. If they allow Catalonia to decide their faith with referendum, the basque will use this as an argument to hold a referendum of their own. And the situation there is quite different from the one in Catalonia. So we're going to not allow self determination to one group of people beacuse it would cause trouble with another group of people? Nobody is stopping them to determine themselves. They have their language, their flag, their government... But they can't steal land. I wonder what is your stance on Texas and California ? Should UN intervene(if they could... At this point UN is just a scarecrow), if at some point in the future 50.1% of them decide that they are "different" ? You can't steal the land you live on. They don't have their government if they are under someone elses laws and their flag is toothless. Scotland has a national football team does Catalonia have a national football team? If Texas and California serenely want to secede they can and I would hope that other countries would hold us accountable under the same circumstances. They wouldn't as their situations would be entirely different (their economies are much more reliant on the national relationship they have then Catalonia would be) but I would hope that htey would be given that option if it were in any way as serious as Catalonia is. a bit besides the point but yeah the difference between California+Texas vs Catalonia exists but I'm not even sure which one is worse. An economy that is based on working with the rest of the country or an economy that's based on working with other nations. Think Brexit times a million, probably for all 3 with suddenly having to look out for themselves and having nothing in place to secure the old trade deals. Would a potential Catalonia even be part of the EU if it were to happen? Not sure if this has been asked/answered before. Just got in here and too tired to read pages upon pages, sry
Considering EU's stance on the matter and the fact that Spain has to approve Catalonia's membership, it's safe to assume that Catalonia will not be in the EU as an independant state.
|
On October 28 2017 06:51 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 06:13 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:59 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:45 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:38 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:34 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:
[quote]
Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them.
Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them.
Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them. The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist. No, the reason Madrid doesn't want to allow referendums is not Catalonia. It's the Basque country. If they allow Catalonia to decide their faith with referendum, the basque will use this as an argument to hold a referendum of their own. And the situation there is quite different from the one in Catalonia. So we're going to not allow self determination to one group of people beacuse it would cause trouble with another group of people? Nobody is stopping them to determine themselves. They have their language, their flag, their government... But they can't steal land. I wonder what is your stance on Texas and California ? Should UN intervene(if they could... At this point UN is just a scarecrow), if at some point in the future 50.1% of them decide that they are "different" ? You can't steal the land you live on. They don't have their government if they are under someone elses laws and their flag is toothless. Scotland has a national football team does Catalonia have a national football team? If Texas and California serenely want to secede they can and I would hope that other countries would hold us accountable under the same circumstances. They wouldn't as their situations would be entirely different (their economies are much more reliant on the national relationship they have then Catalonia would be) but I would hope that htey would be given that option if it were in any way as serious as Catalonia is. a bit besides the point but yeah the difference between California+Texas vs Catalonia exists but I'm not even sure which one is worse. An economy that is based on working with the rest of the country or an economy that's based on working with other nations. Think Brexit times a million, probably for all 3 with suddenly having to look out for themselves and having nothing in place to secure the old trade deals. Would a potential Catalonia even be part of the EU if it were to happen? Not sure if this has been asked/answered before. Just got in here and too tired to read pages upon pages, sry
California would run into massive water problems and Texas has well simply put so much oil and military infrastructure. Catalonia would probably want into the EU and it would be a large fight within the eu to see if they'll get in or not. The EU could use a good existential crisis like that to define what its suppose to be afterall.
It would not be I don't think so but its never happened yet so who knows?
|
There would be no fight within the EU, no country is going to fight for their case and Spain has veto power. The legal, political and economical consequences of Catalonia seceding are unimaginable - there's just no realistic way to do it without massive upheaval. I haven't heard any Catalans explain what would happen top their banking system, for example, on day one of an independent Catalonia outside of the EU and the Euro.
|
Catalonia has perfectly legitimate reasons for secession and has a historic nation state in the county/principality of Barcelona which was independent for a while and existed with its own legal and political system for over 600 years with a couple of 100 more centralized years sharing a ruler with the crown of Aragon and then Spain with numerous independence revolts during that time. Its not just some made up nation that decided to be different.
However that doesn't mean the referendum and this deceleration are right but most of the blame can be laid at the Spanish central government point blank refusal to even talk about it. I can't help but feel if the issue was handled in the same way as the Scottish independence referendum then independence would not get anywhere near close to happening with most people still happy that they got to vote about it.
|
On October 28 2017 07:27 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 06:51 Toadesstern wrote:On October 28 2017 06:13 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:59 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:45 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:38 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:34 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:
[quote]
If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them. The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist. No, the reason Madrid doesn't want to allow referendums is not Catalonia. It's the Basque country. If they allow Catalonia to decide their faith with referendum, the basque will use this as an argument to hold a referendum of their own. And the situation there is quite different from the one in Catalonia. So we're going to not allow self determination to one group of people beacuse it would cause trouble with another group of people? Nobody is stopping them to determine themselves. They have their language, their flag, their government... But they can't steal land. I wonder what is your stance on Texas and California ? Should UN intervene(if they could... At this point UN is just a scarecrow), if at some point in the future 50.1% of them decide that they are "different" ? You can't steal the land you live on. They don't have their government if they are under someone elses laws and their flag is toothless. Scotland has a national football team does Catalonia have a national football team? If Texas and California serenely want to secede they can and I would hope that other countries would hold us accountable under the same circumstances. They wouldn't as their situations would be entirely different (their economies are much more reliant on the national relationship they have then Catalonia would be) but I would hope that htey would be given that option if it were in any way as serious as Catalonia is. a bit besides the point but yeah the difference between California+Texas vs Catalonia exists but I'm not even sure which one is worse. An economy that is based on working with the rest of the country or an economy that's based on working with other nations. Think Brexit times a million, probably for all 3 with suddenly having to look out for themselves and having nothing in place to secure the old trade deals. Would a potential Catalonia even be part of the EU if it were to happen? Not sure if this has been asked/answered before. Just got in here and too tired to read pages upon pages, sry California would run into massive water problems and Texas has well simply put so much oil and military infrastructure. Catalonia would probably want into the EU and it would be a large fight within the eu to see if they'll get in or not. The EU could use a good existential crisis like that to define what its suppose to be afterall. It would not be I don't think so but its never happened yet so who knows?
There would not be a large fight within the EU. However Spain would likely veto their membership for a significant time. They have self-determination as you keep refering to it. Their situation is a so less extreme than that of Hong Kong or the Kurds. Several of the US's states would surely love independence now that you have become the laughing stock of the world. But as for Catalonia; where does it end? I now live in Perpignan, France; they speak Catalan (a minority but it's still on every street sign) here and hid/smuggled a large percentage of the ballots- should they also join Catalunia? I don't see how this is very different from the Basque separtists with a little England twist. The Barca regions feels it contributes more than it gets so wants to leave, imo the situation is that simple.
I welcome non-European views but being on the brink of WWIII because of your country should not allow you to be this pompous.
|
On October 28 2017 19:18 MyTHicaL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 07:27 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 06:51 Toadesstern wrote:On October 28 2017 06:13 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:59 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:45 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:38 Pr0wler wrote:On October 28 2017 05:34 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:26 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:
[quote]
If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. We all knew the results from the illegal referendum before it happened. Not because we thought a majority of catalonians wanted independence (that wasn't the case on the plebiscite they lost, but still didn't stop them from pushing their agenda), but because how the referendum was handled. Now, i hope someone can answer me how you are suppossed to let an illegal referendum to happen, or how a movement on the right spectrum of politics will decide to commit political suicide by not using the tools that the laws provide them. I can find it despicable, but the reason wasn't the result of the referendum, but getting the most capital redit (or atleast limit it to a minimal loss) of a really bad situation for them. The referendum didn't need to be illegal really these referendums should never be illegal. If they were going to lose anyway the government has no reason to not let them lose again. The only reason why the referendum is Illegal is because the government doesn't want the evidence that they want independence to exist. No, the reason Madrid doesn't want to allow referendums is not Catalonia. It's the Basque country. If they allow Catalonia to decide their faith with referendum, the basque will use this as an argument to hold a referendum of their own. And the situation there is quite different from the one in Catalonia. So we're going to not allow self determination to one group of people beacuse it would cause trouble with another group of people? Nobody is stopping them to determine themselves. They have their language, their flag, their government... But they can't steal land. I wonder what is your stance on Texas and California ? Should UN intervene(if they could... At this point UN is just a scarecrow), if at some point in the future 50.1% of them decide that they are "different" ? You can't steal the land you live on. They don't have their government if they are under someone elses laws and their flag is toothless. Scotland has a national football team does Catalonia have a national football team? If Texas and California serenely want to secede they can and I would hope that other countries would hold us accountable under the same circumstances. They wouldn't as their situations would be entirely different (their economies are much more reliant on the national relationship they have then Catalonia would be) but I would hope that htey would be given that option if it were in any way as serious as Catalonia is. a bit besides the point but yeah the difference between California+Texas vs Catalonia exists but I'm not even sure which one is worse. An economy that is based on working with the rest of the country or an economy that's based on working with other nations. Think Brexit times a million, probably for all 3 with suddenly having to look out for themselves and having nothing in place to secure the old trade deals. Would a potential Catalonia even be part of the EU if it were to happen? Not sure if this has been asked/answered before. Just got in here and too tired to read pages upon pages, sry California would run into massive water problems and Texas has well simply put so much oil and military infrastructure. Catalonia would probably want into the EU and it would be a large fight within the eu to see if they'll get in or not. The EU could use a good existential crisis like that to define what its suppose to be afterall. It would not be I don't think so but its never happened yet so who knows? There would not be a large fight within the EU. However Spain would likely veto their membership for a significant time. They have self-determination as you keep refering to it. Their situation is a so less extreme than that of Hong Kong or the Kurds. Several of the US's states would surely love independence now that you have become the laughing stock of the world. But as for Catalonia; where does it end? I now live in Perpignan, France; they speak Catalan (a minority but it's still on every street sign) here and hid/smuggled a large percentage of the ballots- should they also join Catalunia? I don't see how this is very different from the Basque separtists with a little England twist. The Barca regions feels it contributes more than it gets so wants to leave, imo the situation is that simple. I welcome non-European views but being on the brink of WWIII because of your country should not allow you to be this pompous.
He's not being pompous at all...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
