EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 979
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Velr
Switzerland10842 Posts
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Yurie
12010 Posts
On October 28 2017 00:46 Velr wrote: Yeah, but spain handling this like it did may have swayed public opinion somewhat... My co-worker is from Barcelona and was there during the election. He was planing to vote no for separation but ended up voting yes because of the way the vote was handled. I agree with your opinion based on how he says he and many others reacted to the Spanish governments actions. If Spain keep messing up the separation movement will have a chance to become a majority instead of a big movement as it currently is. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On October 28 2017 00:46 Sent. wrote: Maybe it's because some of us rely on different sources, but I don't get why some think things in Catalonia can escalate to a worrying level. To me, it seems like the separatists "tried too hard" and failed because they had no legal arguments or enough public support to be taken seriously. I don't expect any huge riots in the near future, even if Madrid handles the takeover extremely poorly. Situations like this can always degenerate, you only have to look at similar situations in the past. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
If there was a regular referendum where everyone can go to vote he'd have been pro but he said that supporting such kind of vote was impossible for him. I cannot imagine what kind of grudge either side might hold so I find it difficult to understand why one cannot reasonably talk to one another.. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18205 Posts
Right now, I live in the sovereign nation of Catalonia. Truth be told, it seems very similar to the autonomous community of Catalonia. The number of helicopters circling over Plaça Catalunya hasn't changed much in the last few weeks. The main question now is what Catalonia's reaction is going to be to the removal of power. The declaration of independence is mostly meaningless in the sense that it isn't recognized by anybody outside of Catalonia and it's very hard to see a path to any kind of legitimacy. However, it is also a signal that Rajoy drove the separatists into a corner. It wasn't necessarily the hill they wanted to die on, but they got chased up onto that hill and surrounded... so now they're on that hill and how the fuck do you get them down without shit hitting the fan? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 28 2017 02:14 Pr0wler wrote: Spain has the law behind them and the support of most countries(maybe not Russia...lol). This rebelion is doomed. You can't just decide that you are "different" and "oppressed"(lol) and steal territory from sovereign state on that basis. Whether you have your own law behind you is hardly of importance in questions of seperation and the concept of theft doesn't exist in that context (souvereign entities declaring theft of "their" territory is just a he-said-she-said situation. Seperation is always about international recognition or sufficient economic and military independence. That's their problem. They can't do it on their own and they don't have international support. However I don't have the feeling that Spain has a lot of euphoric support either and the nationalists of many countries are probably willing to support Catalonia, even if it is just to seek conflict. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22072 Posts
On October 28 2017 02:46 Big J wrote: Whether you have your own law behind you is hardly of importance in questions of seperation and the concept of theft doesn't exist in that context (souvereign entities declaring theft of "their" territory is just a he-said-she-said situation. Seperation is always about international recognition or sufficient economic and military independence. That's their problem. They can't do it on their own and they don't have international support. However I don't have the feeling that Spain has a lot of euphoric support either and the nationalists of many countries are probably willing to support Catalonia, even if it is just to seek conflict. To me their only path seems to be to 'martyr' themselves to aid a future fight for more independence. Which makes Spain's actions so stupid. They keep throwing fuel on the fire rather then waiting for it to burn out on its own. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On October 28 2017 02:46 Big J wrote: Whether you have your own law behind you is hardly of importance in questions of seperation and the concept of theft doesn't exist in that context (souvereign entities declaring theft of "their" territory is just a he-said-she-said situation. Seperation is always about international recognition or sufficient economic and military independence. That's their problem. They can't do it on their own and they don't have international support. However I don't have the feeling that Spain has a lot of euphoric support either and the nationalists of many countries are probably willing to support Catalonia, even if it is just to seek conflict. Having your own law behind you, gives you international support. Nobody wants a world where the law is not respected(again... maybe not Russia). Exactly the nationalists should be against random one-sided independances. They should know that this case will start a chain reaction and that their country will most likely lose territory, because of that. What is theft is decided by the law. Puidgemont & co. are trying to illegaly separate a piece of land that is part of Spain. That's theft. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 28 2017 03:04 Pr0wler wrote: Having your own law behind you, gives you international support. Nobody wants a world where the law is not respected(again... maybe not Russa). Exactly the nationalists should be against random one-sided independances. They should know that this case will start a chain reaction and that their country will most likely lose territory, because of that. What is theft is decided by the law. Puidgemont & co. are trying to illegaly separate a piece of land that is part of Spain. That's theft. There is no law above souvereign entities, so there can't be theft between them by law, only by common unerstanding which varies based case by case. E.g. Decolonization was not considered "theft" eventually, despite it being against the laws of the respective countries. Whether you have international support is not a question of you having laws but simply of international interests. In case of Catalonia the European interests are probably on the side of Spain, which has little to do with Spanish laws but with the self-interests of the other countries as well as the EU-interests of having a certain peaceful continuity within its borders. | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
On October 28 2017 03:04 Pr0wler wrote: Having your own law behind you, gives you international support. Nobody wants a world where the law is not respected(again... maybe not Russia). Exactly the nationalists should be against random one-sided independances. They should know that this case will start a chain reaction and that their country will most likely lose territory, because of that. What is theft is decided by the law. Puidgemont & co. are trying to illegaly separate a piece of land that is part of Spain. That's theft. Is Bulgarian independence also a theft in the Ottoman Empire's eyes? It wasn't internationally recognised at the start. Have a look, but I'm sure you remember from history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Declaration_of_Independence Also, Serbia is right. Why is Kosovo independent but not Catalonia? Sure, it's in the interest of "the Great Powers" but someone has to point out double standards. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On October 28 2017 03:14 Big J wrote: There is no law above souvereign entities, so there can't be theft between them by law, only by common unerstanding which varies based case by case. E.g. Decolonization was not considered "theft" eventually, despite it being against the laws of the respective countries. Whether you have international support is not a question of you having laws but simply of international interests. In case of Catalonia the European interests are probably on the side of Spain, which has little to do with Spanish laws but with the self-interests of the other countries as well as the EU-interests of having a certain peaceful continuity within its borders. And I'm saying that the international interests are to keep the rule of law. So basically Spain's international suppot comes from the fact that they are on the right side of the law. Here we are not dealing with two sovereign entities. We have one sovereign entity and a group of people that want to steal from it. The constitution of Spain is in power and regulates such cases. On October 28 2017 03:23 sc-darkness wrote: Is Bulgarian independence also a theft in the Ottoman Empire's eyes? It wasn't internationally recognised at the start. Have a look, but I'm sure you remember from history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Declaration_of_Independence Also, Serbia is right. Why is Kosovo independent but not Catalonia? Sure, it's in the interest of "the Great Powers" but someone has to point out double standards. Lol, thank you for the history lesson, I never heard of that declaration... First we were vassal and De facto no longer a part of the Ottoman empire. Second we had the millitary strength to defend our independance. And third the times were completely different. So doesn't apply here. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
And no, Bulgaria didn't have the military strength to defeat Turkey on its own. I know as much as you if not more about this subject. That's why Russia came to help. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15736 Posts
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been: 1. Catalonia screams independence 2. Spain is like "lol ok 3. Spain declares war on Catalonia 4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18205 Posts
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote: Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent. But... we want Mallorca... not Catalonia... | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On October 28 2017 03:36 sc-darkness wrote: You completely missed the point. When a significant group of people doesn't feel they share the same cultures and values, they have the right to self-identify. I don't care about your laws you talk about and neither did Bulgarian voivodas (Independence warriors). And no, Bulgaria didn't have the military strength to defeat Turkey on its own. I know as much as you if not more about this subject. That's why Russia came to help. The right to self-identify doesn't override the border inviolability at least not in that era. The rule of the law is the most important thing for our civilization. See, I don't really want to talk about history here. Just check out the First balkan war - the Thracian front. It happened 4 years after the independance. Russia intervened 30+ years before that and by the time of the indipendance they were not really friendly towards us. But this is completely unrelated to the thread so I will not continue talking about history. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote: Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent. Here is how this would go: Some country invades Catalonia. Catalonian demand for weapons rises. All western nations start relationships with Catalonia to export weapons. Independence accomplished. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote: Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent. My ideal way for this to have gone would have been: 1. Catalonia screams independence 2. Spain is like "lol ok 3. Spain declares war on Catalonia 4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... | ||
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