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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
Did someone say there was oil in Catalonia?
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On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved.
Sure that nobody in europe would have anything against military aggression and annexation if a sovereign (in your scenario) state.
Bismark died a long time ago, you know?
Catalunian and spanish government are getting exactly what they want for their own respective agendas: the worst possible scenario.
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On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ...
How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work.
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On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work.
It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more.
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On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work.
There is a sort of grey area between "they have no right for independence" and " we should paint the streets with their blood".
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The rules by which the world is split in countries are completely arbitrary. The Catalonian case just shows once again what an outdated concept the nation state is from a liberal, economical point of view.
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On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more.
This would make the case for an ever tighter EU. I suspect the catalonian regional government did not thing a milisecond about their relations with the EU when becoming independet.
As to how one can be so ostensibly short sighted I don't understand. Must be due to the internal power struggle with Spain. Anyway, if all these territories become independent, they surely don't want to leave the EU because where would that leave them? In isolation. Nobody wants that.
One possible consequence might be that these newly formed states are integrated ever so tightly into the EU framework as the only option of participating in the common market, retain freedom of movement etc., essentially promoting and speeding up the nationalisation of Europe as a single state.
This would be kind of weird but this, in my opinion, is the only way a region gains "independence" in Europe currently, by giving up their nonexistent sovereignty to become a more independent part of the EU.
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On October 28 2017 03:36 TheDwf wrote:
Summoning blindly the law is worthless here. It's a circular reasoning, the Constitution forbids secession, so no secession can ever happen without the consent of the initial nation, but the initial nation will claim that it cannot happen since its law forbids such a case... Completely circular. What matters here is not strict legality, but legitimacy. That's why Rajoy's reactions were catastrophic. His dumb authoritarianism and his refusal to negotiate to defuse the situation made this declaration of independence happen, despite its legitimacy being dubious (the "no" could not really express itself given the circumstances).
The law in this case just reflects the lack of de-facto legitimacy. Catalonians aren't repressed in Spain, the popular opinion is pretty split and there's a significant case of business interest to have Catalonia secede as to not have to shoulder what is perceived as an economically weaker Spain.
Unilateral secessions are usually a mess and often the cause of bloody civil war, so the bar should be a little higher than this. It's as if Bavaria would declare independence tomorrow because they're getting tired of paying for Saxony. That's not enough.
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On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more.
What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future?
Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that.
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On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that.
Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own.
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On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that.
You answered your own question. Kosovo was a military strategy, not a bunch of entitled children deciding they wanted to feel more distinct while not supporting their less productive countrymen.
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On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own.
True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... If it does get recognized in the EU, brace yourself Independence days are coming...
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On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes...
Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them.
Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them.
Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting?
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On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting?
Because the right to self determination is a pretty meaningless concept until you have defined peoples properly. Which in itself is such an antiliberal concept that I would never support it.
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On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting?
If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure.
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On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure.
If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence.
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On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 28 2017 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
Let Catalonia be independent --> let them figure out their own military, treaties, trade agreements etc --> watch as Germany or damn near any country ever immediately invades them, 100% lawfully because they have no existing military relations with any country --> show these entitled shitheads why they don't just get to decide they are independent.
My ideal way for this to have gone would have been:
1. Catalonia screams independence
2. Spain is like "lol ok
3. Spain declares war on Catalonia
4. 2 weeks later, entire government of Catalonia is killed and replaced
Hey look, the world isn't some sympathetic care-party looking to make people feel independent and loved. No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence.
Illegally gathered evidence is not an evidence. This referendum was not held according to the law.
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On October 28 2017 05:15 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2017 05:07 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 05:01 Godwrath wrote:On October 28 2017 04:44 Sermokala wrote:On October 28 2017 04:37 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:29 Sent. wrote:On October 28 2017 04:24 raga4ka wrote:On October 28 2017 04:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 28 2017 03:59 Mohdoo wrote:On October 28 2017 03:46 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
No wonder the foreign policy of your country is so obnoxious if your leaders share this kind of "logic" ... How about explain why Catalonia should expect to be left on its own and patted on the head for being independent? That is some seriously valuable land. Russia would LOVE to have a military base in Catalonia. Cultural and economic differences do not come close to justifying independence. They aren't entitled to this warm fuzzy identity they are screaming for. California and Mississippi have no reason to be in the same country by Catalonian logic. California should have split a LONG time ago, by their logic. That's not how it works. You don't just trim the fat and reach for cultural distinction. It isn't how countries work. It hurts to admit but I have to agree. Catalunia has absolutely 0 case for their independance. More pragmatically nobody will ever support them because if they got it it would be an open door to virtually every nation in the world to implode. Bretagne, Corsica, Basque country, even fucking Alsace have at least as much as a good case to just decide one day they don't want that France thing no more. What about Kosovo then, what different case did it have to declare it's independence from Serbia? US and the west ( except Spain for obvious reasons) was so eager to recognize Kosovo it would've done it before they declared their independence. See the double standard? Since Serbia isn't a part of the EU and it was in US and the west interest to weaken an a ally of Russia, then it's ok, if they supported Kosovo, but why not support Catalonia, Bavaria, Scotland in the future? Independence is not won by believes, morals, or democracy of the people voting in it, you either have the power and support or you don't, it's simple as that. Kosovo is a made up country created and sustained by foreign actors, it's not comparable to regions capable of surviving on their own. True, but how exactly will Catalonia survive on it's own, with no international recognition with a trade and airspace embargo from Spain and the EU? It would be like North Korea without the nukes... Britian would be in perfect possion to gain from this with their control over Gibraltar they would become the sole tradeing partner with them. Plus theres no way that they're going to stay without international recognition if Spain decides some weird embargo is the way to endear the Catalonia to join back with them. Can someone explain to me why this doesn't fall into the sector of the UN's support for a peoples right to self determination? Isn't that what we're all suppose to be supporting? If you can explain to me how this "referendum" has shown the world a rightful desire for self-determination from a majority of catalonians, sure. If the spanish government didn't think there was any evidence of this they wouldn't have violently suppressed the referendum. Preventing the evidence from being collected doesn't prove there is no evidence. Illegally gathered evidence is not an evidence. This referendum was not held according to the law.
"The law does not allow the gathering of evidence therefor there is no desire for the thing you cannot gather evidence for".
Do you not see the problem with this logic?
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Spain’s done a great job showing they’ll follow the law in this case. Brutal repression for a meaningless vote shows the opposite.
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EPT
