EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 983
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On October 30 2017 19:22 TheDwf wrote: How can you even write things like that... The solution is certainly not to trap farmers into GMOs. Less developed countries should be able to protect their agriculture against the nonsensical competition from subsidized agricultures of developed countries. Genetic engineering / modification isn't a trap, it's a tool. Like any conventional tool in agriculture it can help making the process more efficient, requiring less pesticides, producing more yield, and so forth. That's a good thing even if it comes from a big evil company who you have to pay for it just like any machine a farmer has to buy from a business. They don't need to protect their agriculture industry, they need to be able to trade the products they produce. The goal is to get them out of unproductive subsistence farming which results in low skilled (child) labour, large families and living barely above poverty into more productive sectors of the economy. Protectionism in the developing world and in Europe just results in a net loss of productive capacity. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
The one I'm referring to is focused on subsistence and local commuinities rather than the international market, which for those is just a pipe dream to participate in. This is the type of farming that cares about the land and doesn't degrade soil, a only very difficult to renew resource by the by. Whereas you certainly don't see that being a concern of GMO seeds which in conjunction with the related presticide just says fuck you nature. And this, to be honest, is fucking dumb. You can only do so much with fertilizer but a healthy soil is thousands of times better. Given that a company is able to manufacture the perfect crop variant which increases yield, is pest resilient to a point where no pesticides or insecticdes are needed and they don't sue farmers for one fucking plant of theirs that got onto their field by accident. Honestly I would be fine with that, in case there are no environmental downsides. Just that the 2nd and 3rd are so fucking far away from reality that I cannot condone Monsanto & company fucking up our world. We don't need no artificial fertilizer and no mass amounts of pesticide. We need eat smart and manage our soil resource properly. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On October 31 2017 03:44 Artisreal wrote: I suspect we are speaking of totally different kinds of farming. The one I'm referring to is focused on subsistence and local commuinities rather than the international market, which for those is just a pipe dream to participate in. This is the type of farming that cares about the land and doesn't degrade soil, a only very difficult to renew resource by the by. Whereas you certainly don't see that being a concern of GMO seeds which in conjunction with the related presticide just says fuck you nature. And this, to be honest, is fucking dumb. You can only do so much with fertilizer but a healthy soil is thousands of times better. Given that a company is able to manufacture the perfect crop variant which increases yield, is pest resilient to a point where no pesticides or insecticdes are needed and they don't sue farmers for one fucking plant of theirs that got onto their field by accident. Honestly I would be fine with that, in case there are no environmental downsides. Just that the 2nd and 3rd are so fucking far away from reality that I cannot condone Monsanto & company fucking up our world. We don't need no artificial fertilizer and no mass amounts of pesticide. We need eat smart and manage our soil resource properly. You will not get such "perfect crop" by banning GMOs that's for sure. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 31 2017 06:56 Pr0wler wrote: You will not get such "perfect crop" by banning GMOs that's for sure. Afaik scientific work is usually carried out in laboratories. Need I mention that it is scientific work that might be able to create such a magic crop and has little to do with your little ban-obsession? (although I believe it is highly unlikely to overcome evolution to the described degree). | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On October 31 2017 09:13 Big J wrote: Afaik scientific work is usually carried out in laboratories. Need I mention that it is scientific work that might be able to create such a magic crop and has little to do with your little ban-obsession? (although I believe it is highly unlikely to overcome evolution to the described degree). First of all, ban on anything that was not proven harmful is retarded, so I will continue with my "little ban-obsession", thank you very much. Let's say that scientists in France already created their magic crop. Now what ? GMO is banned there... Where are they planting it ? Well, for sure it will not be at local farm and for sure the french will not benefit from it. Instead, if at all, it will be bought by some big company like Bayer(Monsanto)... Good job retarded law, you achieved your goals. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
Nobody denies the achievements of the past, but if you think that we can just keep on winning with this team you are mistaken and, as I pointed out in my previous post about the assessment of agricultural science and technology, the world agrees with me on that one. If you contrast what I've provided source wise with your Wikipedia link, I don't really know what to say to you but that al gore and Obama also received a Nobel prize and that people get lauded for stuff that turns out crap like chlorofluorocarbons. With our Anglo- and Eurocentric worldview it might have done a lot of good, which in turn doesn't mean two things: First, that this applies to the countries of the south Second, that it is sustainable in any shape or form. Regarding the last two points you can read a short paragraph here on page 6 as well as extract citations for further reading. | ||
Nixer
2774 Posts
On October 31 2017 17:05 Artisreal wrote: The thing is that industrialised agriculture as it is practiced e.g. in Germany, the US or Argentina is destroying the soil. Destroying the ecosystems surrounding the soil, polluting the groundwater, killing birds and insects which are the factual basis of a pesticide free or minimised agriculture. Nobody denies the achievements of the past, but if you think that we can just keep on winning with this team you are mistaken and, as I pointed out in my previous post about the assessment of agricultural science and technology, the world agrees with me on that one. If you contrast what I've provided source wise with your Wikipedia link, I don't really know what to say to you but that al gore and Obama also received a Nobel prize and that people get lauded for stuff that turns out crap like chlorofluorocarbons. With our Anglo- and Eurocentric worldview it might have done a lot of good, which in turn doesn't mean two things: First, that this applies to the countries of the south Second, that it is sustainable in any shape or form. Regarding the last two points you can read a short paragraph here on page 6 as well as extract citations for further reading. Borlaug helped prevent famine and starvation en masse, in "countries of the south" specifically for a period of time. You don't think think it's deserved praise, seriously? That's what you're implying with discrediting the Nobel Peace Prize. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
people used to grow way more different grain varieties(millet, sorghum, buckwheat ...) based on climate, tolerance, nutritional needs, etc. he fucked it all. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On October 31 2017 17:38 xM(Z wrote: Borlaug is probably the main culprit for why people die/get debilitated of gluten related illnesses these days. people used to grow way more different grain varieties(millet, sorghum, buckwheat ...) based on climate, tolerance, nutritional needs, etc. he fucked it all. The only actual gluten-related illness is coeliac disease, which is indeed on the rise, but the causation with crop changes is hugely unclear, it might be related to changes in lifestyle, breastfeeding, exposure to pathogens etc and most importantly diagnosis, also there are big genetic factors involved for white people. The rest of "gluten is bad for you" is just alternative mumbo jumbo. | ||
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Nixer
2774 Posts
Don't be ridiculous. Hindsight once again.. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On October 31 2017 17:48 Nixer wrote: Oh now he's to blame for everything because he solved a serious problem with a solution, albeit temporary of course. Sure. Don't be ridiculous. Hindsight once again.. Idk if your referring to me but if you think that's what I said, please read again. | ||
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Nixer
2774 Posts
On October 31 2017 17:53 Artisreal wrote: Idk if your referring to me but if you think that's what I said, please read again. Not a response to your post at all. | ||
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warding
Portugal2395 Posts
- If modern agricultural practices in the West are detrimental to the soil and long-term sustainability of agriculture, then wouldn't it be in the self-interest of the landowners to change the agricultural practices? Why would they be acting against their own self-interest? All larger scale agriculture businesses I know are deeply knowledgeable and scientific about what they do. - If modern agricultural practices are unsustainable, shouldn't we be feeling the symptoms yet? Despite massive population and economic growth (increasing the demand), food price indexes have remained relatively stable throughout the decades: ![[image loading]](http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/templates/worldfood/images/home_graph_3.jpg) EDIT: 2009-2010 was indeed a time where people were panicking about the rise in food prices. Some were suggesting the Arab spring was a result of it. Since then things have gotten back to normal. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18263 Posts
On October 31 2017 20:31 warding wrote: Artisreal nobody here is going to read 100 pages reports as a substitution for forum discussion. Here's what I don't get: - If modern agricultural practices in the West are detrimental to the soil and long-term sustainability of agriculture, then wouldn't it be in the self-interest of the landowners to change the agricultural practices? Why would they be acting against their own self-interest? All larger scale agriculture businesses I know are deeply knowledgeable and scientific about what they do. - If modern agricultural practices are unsustainable, shouldn't we be feeling the symptoms yet? Despite massive population and economic growth (increasing the demand), food price indexes have remained relatively stable throughout the decades: EDIT: 2009-2010 was indeed a time where people were panicking about the rise in food prices. Some were suggesting the Arab spring was a result of it. Since then things have gotten back to normal. I've read quite a few reports that attribute the start of the war in Syria to the local drought and disgruntled farmers. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28785 Posts
On October 31 2017 20:31 warding wrote: Artisreal nobody here is going to read 100 pages reports as a substitution for forum discussion. Here's what I don't get: - If modern agricultural practices in the West are detrimental to the soil and long-term sustainability of agriculture, then wouldn't it be in the self-interest of the landowners to change the agricultural practices? Why would they be acting against their own self-interest? All larger scale agriculture businesses I know are deeply knowledgeable and scientific about what they do. - If modern agricultural practices are unsustainable, shouldn't we be feeling the symptoms yet? Despite massive population and economic growth (increasing the demand), food price indexes have remained relatively stable throughout the decades: EDIT: 2009-2010 was indeed a time where people were panicking about the rise in food prices. Some were suggesting the Arab spring was a result of it. Since then things have gotten back to normal. I'm not actually saying that modern agriculture is detrimental to the soil and long-term sustainability, I don't know enough about this. I see conflicting points of view from different political players and have no idea who to trust. But I don't think 'long-term sustainability' and self-interest necessarily correspond here, long term doesn't necessarily mean 25-30 years - whatever until current day farmers and land owners are enjoying their retirement. It's a what about the future generations kind of thing, like most climate related issues. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
In many areas of germany there are now ~75% less Insects than there used to be. Basically they built "insect Traps" and take the weight of the Biomass in them. 1995 average of ~1.6 Kg Biomass (Insects). 2016 ~300 g http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wissen/leben-gene/immer-weniger-insekten-in-deutschland-14173292.html (in german) I hope no one here doubts what happens once Bee's and other Insects become too low in number to spread enough seeds from plant to plant? | ||
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warding
Portugal2395 Posts
About insects, the decrease in insect populations doesn't seem to have decreased agricultural production, where are the symptoms? Do we know why this is happening? Agriculture didn't change all that much between 1995 and 2016 in Germany did it? | ||
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