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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 771

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
April 10 2017 16:12 GMT
#15401
I agree with to each their own. And I think it's good that people who for whatever reason want more money can make more money through working more / harder. But I do think that in the west, resource scarcity is not a big issue, resource distribution is, and I would like our societal progress to come in the form of more free time, not more material wealth.
Moderator
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
April 10 2017 16:44 GMT
#15402
On April 11 2017 00:57 LegalLord wrote:
Sanders falls pretty squarely into what would be called a social democrat in Europeland.

I will, however, say that anyone who supports UHC and free college for all, and other staples in Europe - government funding for family planning, not shilling for religion every second, not stroking the cock of corporations and the military-industrial complex in the most absurd ways - would fall left of center in the US. Which, incidentally, seems to be the European right.


Nah, AfD, Ukip etc.. basically want to abolish social welfare, they mix nationalist capitalism with their ethno-centric positions. And in many other countries it's merely a lip service, they're not anti-corporate in any meaningful sense.
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
April 10 2017 16:48 GMT
#15403
Political position isn´t a line like "right/left" might suggest. Far more relevant imho is the question if Sanders should be able to start his own party.
There is a clear argument that there can be too many political parties however that number propably isn´t 3.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10700 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 17:11:37
April 10 2017 17:05 GMT
#15404
Biggest diffrence between most countries is what conservative and progressive mean, not what left/right means. Most european left parties aren't much diffrent from left usdemocrats but whent it comes to religious republicans and most of western europes right the diffrences become very obvious, maybe its mostly the rethoric used but boy... while i dislike most eu conservatives, i can't even fathom most of the republican party.
If not for TL and a few other sides i couldn't believe such positions even exist in first world countries today. Even the atheist movements the US has don't really exist here, religion is seen as something private, not a reason for anything and trying to play the religion card is really dangerous.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
April 10 2017 17:12 GMT
#15405
On April 11 2017 01:44 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2017 00:57 LegalLord wrote:
Sanders falls pretty squarely into what would be called a social democrat in Europeland.

I will, however, say that anyone who supports UHC and free college for all, and other staples in Europe - government funding for family planning, not shilling for religion every second, not stroking the cock of corporations and the military-industrial complex in the most absurd ways - would fall left of center in the US. Which, incidentally, seems to be the European right.


Nah, AfD, Ukip etc.. basically want to abolish social welfare, they mix nationalist capitalism with their ethno-centric positions. And in many other countries it's merely a lip service, they're not anti-corporate in any meaningful sense.

That's what's called the "far right" in Europeland, which corresponds quite well to our regular right.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13925 Posts
April 10 2017 17:23 GMT
#15406
Can you imagine what an American UKIP would be?
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10700 Posts
April 10 2017 17:32 GMT
#15407
Westboro babtists with a following?
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9193 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 17:40:34
April 10 2017 17:39 GMT
#15408
Something like an immature version of the republican party minus the religious and anti-Russian parts? All those populist far right parties in Europe want low taxes, small but tough on crime government and stricter immigration laws. I think most of them want to unban the guns too.

It's hard to imagine because UKIP is a single-issue eurosceptic party, hard to translate that into American politics.
You're now breathing manually
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States1452 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 17:42:24
April 10 2017 17:40 GMT
#15409
On April 11 2017 01:44 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2017 00:57 LegalLord wrote:
Sanders falls pretty squarely into what would be called a social democrat in Europeland.

I will, however, say that anyone who supports UHC and free college for all, and other staples in Europe - government funding for family planning, not shilling for religion every second, not stroking the cock of corporations and the military-industrial complex in the most absurd ways - would fall left of center in the US. Which, incidentally, seems to be the European right.


Nah, AfD, Ukip etc.. basically want to abolish social welfare, they mix nationalist capitalism with their ethno-centric positions. And in many other countries it's merely a lip service, they're not anti-corporate in any meaningful sense.


The far-right parties (which are now usually called "populist" for the following reason) are heterogeneous on economic issues. Most of them aren't hyper-capitalists, they mix-and-match whatever is hip in their countries.

On April 11 2017 02:23 Sermokala wrote:
Can you imagine what an American UKIP would be?


Essentially that's what the alt-right is.

On April 11 2017 00:53 Incognoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2017 21:59 TheDwf wrote:
On April 10 2017 09:08 bardtown wrote:
Does Melenchon favour basic income or is that only Hamon? The idea of a 'far right' vs 'far left' run off is pretty interesting, though not necessarily good.

Mélenchon is radical left, not far-left. He's pretty much the equivalent of Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos (and Syriza before Tspiras capitulated; Mélenchon still works with people like Zoé Kanstantopoúlou who refused the diktats of the troïka), i.e. the left returning to its fundamentals as a reaction to the impasse of the governmental “left” endlessly drifting towards the centre/right and thus failing to serve its social base.

Nope, Mélenchon is against the universal base income. He said that the idea was interesting but not ready (as evidenced by the fact that Hamon changed it like half a dozen of times since he first presented it... his “universal” income is not even universal anymore in his last version, there are conditions of resources). His goal is classic full employment, in particular with the energy transition and the reduction of working time.


Reduction of working time always makes me laugh. France is at 35 hours a week. I'm doing 40, waking up at 4:30 AM every day and it's easy. I still have so much free time.


Reducing working time also increases employment. It essentially is a wage cap on people who are statistically over-productive. Instead of paying Hardworker Fred to work 40 hrs+10 overtime because he makes me more money, I have to pay Mediocreworkers Betsy and Jerome to each work 25 hours. It spreads out the wealth among the middle class.

On April 11 2017 02:39 Sent. wrote:
It's hard to imagine because UKIP is a single-issue eurosceptic party, hard to translate that into American politics.


Sounds like the Tea Party and their wall along the Mexican border to me.
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3 was the greatest tournament of all time
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 10 2017 17:50 GMT
#15410
On April 11 2017 01:48 Unentschieden wrote:
Political position isn´t a line like "right/left" might suggest. Far more relevant imho is the question if Sanders should be able to start his own party.
There is a clear argument that there can be too many political parties however that number propably isn´t 3.


What argument would that be?
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 17:51:37
April 10 2017 17:51 GMT
#15411
On April 11 2017 02:40 LightSpectra wrote:
The far-right parties (which are now usually called "populist" for the following reason) are heterogeneous on economic issues. Most of them aren't hyper-capitalists, they mix-and-match whatever is hip in their countries.


I don't buy it. In the French debates Le Pen (who most people would put into the populist econ camp) also started to rant about 'red tape' wanted to exempt overtime from taxation and so on. There's a lot of lip service against 'global capital' and whatnot but that does not make a social candidate.

This really is an age old story of European right-wing politics. They don't want genuine social progress, they want to unify business and the lower classes under some 'culture war' banner while keeping the hierarchies intact.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 10 2017 18:16 GMT
#15412
On April 11 2017 02:51 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2017 02:40 LightSpectra wrote:
The far-right parties (which are now usually called "populist" for the following reason) are heterogeneous on economic issues. Most of them aren't hyper-capitalists, they mix-and-match whatever is hip in their countries.


I don't buy it. In the French debates Le Pen (who most people would put into the populist econ camp) also started to rant about 'red tape' wanted to exempt overtime from taxation and so on. There's a lot of lip service against 'global capital' and whatnot but that does not make a social candidate.

This really is an age old story of European right-wing politics. They don't want genuine social progress, they want to unify business and the lower classes under some 'culture war' banner while keeping the hierarchies intact.


I honestly believe they are simply idiots when it comes to economy. They just don't care, they want to dictate their pure population ideology, they want law and order politics and anything more complicated than that is too much for them. So what they do is they go to liberterian institutes, which tell them that all they need to do is reduce taxes and regulations.
Which is the perfect fit, as this economical ideology combines perfectly with not having a functional brain, all they have to do at this point is throw around vague principles like "Laffer Curve" or find an example of a business that would be doing so much better, if only those regulations wouldn't prevent them from pouring poison into our food and enviroment.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 18:21:08
April 10 2017 18:20 GMT
#15413
They are nationalistic ideologues. Everything else is sort of a distraction. But they share a purpose with Eurosceptic views so they have a place in the political field.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10700 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 18:31:27
April 10 2017 18:27 GMT
#15414
If you speak german and ask yourself... why people have problems with democracy:

https://www.zdf.de/kultur/filme-dokus-kabarett/die-anstalt-158.html

this episode is just pure gold.. the first 15-20 minutes are kinda "meh" but then... best political satire i have seen in a long time.

edit: after ~5 minutes
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 10 2017 18:28 GMT
#15415
On April 11 2017 03:16 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2017 02:51 Nyxisto wrote:
On April 11 2017 02:40 LightSpectra wrote:
The far-right parties (which are now usually called "populist" for the following reason) are heterogeneous on economic issues. Most of them aren't hyper-capitalists, they mix-and-match whatever is hip in their countries.


I don't buy it. In the French debates Le Pen (who most people would put into the populist econ camp) also started to rant about 'red tape' wanted to exempt overtime from taxation and so on. There's a lot of lip service against 'global capital' and whatnot but that does not make a social candidate.

This really is an age old story of European right-wing politics. They don't want genuine social progress, they want to unify business and the lower classes under some 'culture war' banner while keeping the hierarchies intact.


I honestly believe they are simply idiots when it comes to economy. They just don't care, they want to dictate their pure population ideology, they want law and order politics and anything more complicated than that is too much for them. So what they do is they go to liberterian institutes, which tell them that all they need to do is reduce taxes and regulations.
Which is the perfect fit, as this economical ideology combines perfectly with not having a functional brain, all they have to do at this point is throw around vague principles like "Laffer Curve" or find an example of a business that would be doing so much better, if only those regulations wouldn't prevent them from pouring poison into our food and enviroment.

Le Pen's niece: “I don't care whether my daughter pays her burqa in francs or euros.”
Pretty much says it all, uh?
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10700 Posts
April 10 2017 18:30 GMT
#15416
That she's a moron?
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
April 10 2017 18:32 GMT
#15417
On April 11 2017 03:16 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2017 02:51 Nyxisto wrote:
On April 11 2017 02:40 LightSpectra wrote:
The far-right parties (which are now usually called "populist" for the following reason) are heterogeneous on economic issues. Most of them aren't hyper-capitalists, they mix-and-match whatever is hip in their countries.


I don't buy it. In the French debates Le Pen (who most people would put into the populist econ camp) also started to rant about 'red tape' wanted to exempt overtime from taxation and so on. There's a lot of lip service against 'global capital' and whatnot but that does not make a social candidate.

This really is an age old story of European right-wing politics. They don't want genuine social progress, they want to unify business and the lower classes under some 'culture war' banner while keeping the hierarchies intact.


I honestly believe they are simply idiots when it comes to economy. They just don't care, they want to dictate their pure population ideology, they want law and order politics and anything more complicated than that is too much for them. So what they do is they go to liberterian institutes, which tell them that all they need to do is reduce taxes and regulations.
Which is the perfect fit, as this economical ideology combines perfectly with not having a functional brain, all they have to do at this point is throw around vague principles like "Laffer Curve" or find an example of a business that would be doing so much better, if only those regulations wouldn't prevent them from pouring poison into our food and enviroment.


Unfortunately they are pandering to the brainless, average voter. Amirite Donny Drumpf?
maru lover forever
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 18:35:11
April 10 2017 18:34 GMT
#15418
That family is actually the best example of the whole hypocrisy. The entrenched, probably criminal family clan is going to free us all from the corrupt elites, with the niece having come full circle and basically being as disgusting as the grandfather who kicked it all off. It could be performance art if it wasn't real politics. I honestly don't know how we're supposed to talk to people who look at this and consider this as a serious alternative even for a second.
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 18:41:13
April 10 2017 18:38 GMT
#15419
On April 11 2017 03:27 Velr wrote:
If you speak german and ask yourself... why people have problems with democracy:

https://www.zdf.de/kultur/filme-dokus-kabarett/die-anstalt-158.html

this episode is just pure gold.. the first 15-20 minutes are kinda "meh" but then... best political satire i have seen in a long time.

edit: after ~5 minutes

Diese sendung is nur in Deutschland, Osterreich und der Schweiz verfugbar.

I really hope the EU will bring in legislation to solve this kind of nonsense too. Single market my ass.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
April 10 2017 18:47 GMT
#15420
On April 11 2017 01:05 Incognoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2017 00:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Well would you not be able to enjoy 5 hours more?

In Norway I think that literally every single person with a full time job has enough money. Some professions are underpaid and some make a bit too much, but the big separation is between people with full time jobs and people who only work part time or are unemployed. To me, it makes no sense to focus on increased economic output, I'd much rather decrease my future work load by 20% and stay on my current level of income than stay on the same work load and increase my income by 20%.


To each their own. Honestly at 40 hours a week, I'm not really missing free time too much. I still have time to do whatever I want mostly. The money is good as well so I can pay for rent, fuel and food easily (rent is pretty expensive too) and still put a little money aside for flight training.

Income matters to me since I'm engaged in flight training and hour building as a professional pilot. Later on I'd like to buy a small plane or something too.

These are things which I can do in the USA but I wouldn't even dream about doing in France.

To be fair though, my job is really, really easy.


you don't want more time for flight training?

what do you do that is so easy?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
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