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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
This thread has devolved into "how many ways can LL say that he doesn't like the EU". What exactly do this grandiose formulations about "cancerous tumors" bring to the actual discussion? It's stupid and boring. LL, you don't even live in the EU, so your comments are nothing more than the very same ignorance of facts that you so readily loathe in others. The EU brings immense benefits, in particular to people who don't want to spend their whole time within a square mile and in contact only with people that are exactly like them.
This isn't just some "youngsters dreaming about free travel", this is the day-to-day reality of millions of cross-border workers, whose life is made incomparably simpler not only because they can work over border, but because they can do it and yet have everything else work out pretty much seamlessly - healthcare, pension, social securities, education, financial services, you name it. And if you put the "filthy Poles stealing our job" delusion behind you would see how it's beneficial for both sides, as unemployment in the target countries such as Germany is pretty low already and they need getting those simple jobs done more than they need the job vacancies.
It's very important to understand, that the EU isn't about "just some trade agreements", it's about making the lives of people less dependent on the arbitrary border lines that some monarchs drew centuries ago and this includes a lot of small things that would be insanely difficult to arrange without the actual bureaucracy that people so love to make jokes about. Surely, the inner workings of it aren't probably the most efficient arrangement but as I was repeatedly trying to explain here, that is in general the case in any democratic system - the institutions are not the result of a grand plan, but of a process that is possible to implement to reach them in the absence of an omnipotent force.
Another big aspect of the EU is the transfer of wealth towards the poorer countries. Again, if you can look past the blinding rage about the eastern leeches draining the riches of the west, you will understand how beneficial it is for everyone to create a large area with good economy, because the rich are rich only because they have customers and poor people are terrible customers. The investments into infrastructure in the less developed countries multiply into efficient improvements in their economies, creating a previously non-existent marked for the rich countries to trade with.
All these great achievements of the EU can't be just dismissed by saying "look how bad is it" without any actual substance to it. This stance makes you seem completely foolish.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On April 10 2017 03:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Your hyperbole makes it hard to take you seriously tbh. Maybe take a page out of your own manual when you criticize people for calling Trump or Putin Hitler. The EU has issues, but a whole lot of europeans also think it massively improves their life quality. I've yet to see the cancer patient who feels that way about his or her tumor.
I think calling the EU a cancer is perfectly valid and hardly hyperbolic in the sense that I mean it: as an organization that grew and grew and grew without bound, both in terms of nations within the union and within responsibilities gained by the supranational organization, until it made its own existence unviable and resulted in its own death.
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I want to comment on the video that many of the people in it are speaking Russian and not Ukrainian. Combined with how scripted some of the talks are, I am suspicious that it is simply more propaganda.
Western journalists have documented small groups of armoured vehicles and artillery because what do you expect? Gigantic convoys? This isn't world war 3.
What we can agree on is US and Russia BOTH meddled in Ukrainian politics, and that the only people who are going to come out on top are the oligarchs.
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I imagine they speak Russian because they are ethnic Russians living in Ukraine... why would they speak Ukranian? Its hard for me to discern whether or not they're speaking in a scripted way, but don't think there's much denying that Ukraine is a corrupt mess though - whether they're pro-EU or not - and hardly a beacon of democracy. It seems entirely possible that they responded to protests in a relatively heavy-handed manner (even here in the Netherlands things sometimes escalate to violence between police and protesters), causing the protests to escalate into riots. There is also no doubt in my mind that Russia is supplying the people of Donbass with weapons, but at the same time I don't think that the people of Donbass would be fighting just for the hell of it. Like in Syria against Assad, people don't usually turn to violence without good reason. Things tend to escalate slowly, and it just got out of hand as the protests kept going. So to claim that it is just Russia that is being oppressive and invading without reason is telling half the story.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
In some nationalistic push some months ago, the Ukrainian government wanted to sideline use of the Russian language in society... only to find that they overestimated how well even the most nationalistic of Ukrainians spoke Ukrainian. I believe that the current president of Ukraine speaks Russian better than Ukrainian as well (English too - most of these oligarch types are "citizens of the world" because their money transcends borders). Further than just ethnic Russians learning Russian, the Russian language is simply quite relevant to Ukraine as a whole. Though there certainly are pushes to change that among the nationalists who think that the Russian language is evil filth that needs to be removed from their proud Ukrainian society.
Though Thaniri is pretty well-known for saying unsubstantiated garbage so there's little point in discussing it further, of course.
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I'm not good enough to discern accents, I barely understand Russian as it is. Ukrainian is much easier for me to understand. I agree that there are people from Ukraine who are fighting for a more legitimate government, but it seems odd to me to claim there is NO Russian involvement at all. Repeatedly. Over and over. Just in case you didn't understand the first 20 times.
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EU is devoted to finance, so yeah, it's a fucking cancer for ppl which facilates dumping social and let entier nation starve for goldman sachs, a bank in which the former president of european commission is now part of.
All in all, it only helps the upper class to smash even more the lowest by erasing every national sovereignity like the 2005 french referendum or the greek one. Only the britannic one should work because of his radical approach.
Basically, that's an anti democratic tool of lobbies which helps to erase any social contestations. Under the authority of Bruxels, there is no hope for just a bit of social equality, quite the contrary imo.
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On April 10 2017 04:11 Thaniri wrote:
I'm not good enough to discern accents, I barely understand Russian as it is. Ukrainian is much easier for me to understand. I agree that there are people from Ukraine who are fighting for a more legitimate government, but it seems odd to me to claim there is NO Russian involvement at all. Repeatedly. Over and over. Just in case you didn't understand the first 20 times.
Western propaganda news meanwhile says that it is practically only invading Russians, rather than people living in Donbass and its surrounding regions where the protests all broke out after Euromaidan.
The parallels with Syria are just astonishing, quite frankly, everyone picking one side and blaming everything on "the others". The Syrian government said it was foreign invaders, foreign money, foreign weapons, etc. Kiev says it is foreign invaders, foreign money, foreign weapons. One side says it was peaceful protesters being overrun by the military, the other side says it was violent riots inspired by foreign anti-government propaganda that had to be quelled. You can apply the same statements almost word for word. And everyone seems absolutely convinced that they are in the right, while the others are wrong. Its absurd.
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I can't speak for Syria, I have read nothing about it other than lots of people are dying on all sides.
If you read enough news about Ukraine however, not a single influence has been positive. Russians invaded, or at the very least supplied the war in the east. Ukrainian politicians were in the pocket of Russia, who didn't want them to join the EU. Americans were flexing their political influence and trying to get their leaders in power.
Its like trying to still rough water with your hand. You just end up making more waves.
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Mélenchon still seems to climb in popularity, would be pretty crazy if Hamon would endorse him. He'd probably have a real chance to win then.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
A third of the French are still undecided - making predictions with any degree of certainty is tough right now.
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Does Melenchon favour basic income or is that only Hamon? The idea of a 'far right' vs 'far left' run off is pretty interesting, though not necessarily good.
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On April 10 2017 04:59 stilt wrote:
EU is devoted to finance, so yeah, it's a fucking cancer for ppl which facilates dumping social and let entier nation starve for goldman sachs, a bank in which the former president of european commission is now part of.
All in all, it only helps the upper class to smash even more the lowest by erasing every national sovereignity like the 2005 french referendum or the greek one. Only the britannic one should work because of his radical approach.
Basically, that's an anti democratic tool of lobbies which helps to erase any social contestations. Under the authority of Bruxels, there is no hope for just a bit of social equality, quite the contrary imo.
Jesus that sounds like badly digested propaganda.
How is the EU anti democratic when it's composed of a council of government representatives democratically elected, and a parliament democratically elected?
What you are describing has not much to do with the EU but rather with the whole world and it's called neo liberalism. The EU is not more pro finance and unfair than the US, Canada, New Zealand and all western countries. If anything countries of the EU range from the best in the world to better than average in terms of social system and have their rights, including the right to protest, extremely well guaranteed.
Disco from MLP or whoever you heard this Sheiss from, and you might realize that our oh so french populist poujadist rants are forgetiing a couple of key facts on the road.
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Please drop the Ukraine topic. There is a reason Ukraine thread was closed - if You continue to spread russian lies some people will feel obliged to respond and this thread will meet same fate.
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According to new polls testing Mélenchon in the second round, it seems that he would win over Le Pen by a higher margin than Fillon and would lose more narrowly to Macron.
Fillon has "only" 10 points lead to Le Pen (55 to 45) while Macron would crush her 61 - 39. Fillon is now in fourth position for the second round.
Looks like either Macron or Mélenchon will be our next president. For a progressive left winger, it's not fun at all : I have the choice between two version of the "left" I don't believe in at all.
The really interesting development this election is the collapse of the two big parties. It's really unprecedented that neither the SFIO-PS neither the UNR-UDT-UDR-RPR-UMP-LR (can't those people agree on a name and get done with it...) might be present in the second round.
Hollande has been a disaster for the PS, who has lost all credibility. The sad thing is that the party is full of promising people. As for LR, it is finally caught up by its flamboyant level of corruption.
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On April 10 2017 04:59 stilt wrote:
EU is devoted to finance, so yeah, it's a fucking cancer for ppl which facilates dumping social and let entier nation starve for goldman sachs, a bank in which the former president of european commission is now part of.
All in all, it only helps the upper class to smash even more the lowest by erasing every national sovereignity like the 2005 french referendum or the greek one. Only the britannic one should work because of his radical approach.
Basically, that's an anti democratic tool of lobbies which helps to erase any social contestations. Under the authority of Bruxels, there is no hope for just a bit of social equality, quite the contrary imo. Are you sure? You only need to compare working conditions in the US with the countries in the EU to know it isn't true. There are things like European Working Time Directive to help prevent the worst excesses, whilst in USA, you practically can be dismissed for no reason, forced to work insane amounts of overtime with lesser holiday than most countires in the EU. Also the EU wanted to put far more stringent regulatory controls on banks, but UK scuppered that idea.
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On April 10 2017 19:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 04:59 stilt wrote:
EU is devoted to finance, so yeah, it's a fucking cancer for ppl which facilates dumping social and let entier nation starve for goldman sachs, a bank in which the former president of european commission is now part of.
All in all, it only helps the upper class to smash even more the lowest by erasing every national sovereignity like the 2005 french referendum or the greek one. Only the britannic one should work because of his radical approach.
Basically, that's an anti democratic tool of lobbies which helps to erase any social contestations. Under the authority of Bruxels, there is no hope for just a bit of social equality, quite the contrary imo. Are you sure? You only need to compare working conditions in the US with the countries in the EU to know it isn't true. There are things like European Working Time Directive to help prevent the worst excesses, whilst in USA, you practically can be dismissed for no reason, forced to work insane amounts of overtime with lesser holiday than most countires in the EU. Also the EU wanted to put far more stringent regulatory controls on banks, but UK scuppered that idea.
Have you ever worked in the US? Have you ever worked in Romania? I would take the former any day of the week. Stop attributing the success of NW Europe to the EU. The best countries to work in are Switzerland and Norway, and they're not in the EU.
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Uhm, when it comes to worker rights and all that stuff Switzerland is hardly a top country (in europe). Our weekly hours are high, maternity leave is a joke, mandatory holydays are low (4 weeks) and protection against being laid off is weak.
We pay really good (but the big majority of taxes is not directly deducted from your pay, so your actual earnings drop by ~1-2.5 monthly incomes). Stuff is also expensive here so you don't end up as much better as you probably think.
If i would have to give a reason for the swiss success its the dualistic education System, it allows/damn near forces basically anyone to learn a trade even if the person was pretty bad at school and later allows him to still climb up the ladder competing with university bachelors/masters while having vastly more workplace experience (and allready earned Money for 6-10 years).
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On April 10 2017 20:37 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 19:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On April 10 2017 04:59 stilt wrote:
EU is devoted to finance, so yeah, it's a fucking cancer for ppl which facilates dumping social and let entier nation starve for goldman sachs, a bank in which the former president of european commission is now part of.
All in all, it only helps the upper class to smash even more the lowest by erasing every national sovereignity like the 2005 french referendum or the greek one. Only the britannic one should work because of his radical approach.
Basically, that's an anti democratic tool of lobbies which helps to erase any social contestations. Under the authority of Bruxels, there is no hope for just a bit of social equality, quite the contrary imo. Are you sure? You only need to compare working conditions in the US with the countries in the EU to know it isn't true. There are things like European Working Time Directive to help prevent the worst excesses, whilst in USA, you practically can be dismissed for no reason, forced to work insane amounts of overtime with lesser holiday than most countires in the EU. Also the EU wanted to put far more stringent regulatory controls on banks, but UK scuppered that idea. Have you ever worked in the US? Have you ever worked in Romania? I would take the former any day of the week. Stop attributing the success of NW Europe to the EU. The best countries to work in are Switzerland and Norway, and they're not in the EU.
Uhh...what? I get the feeling you are discussing some other issue entirely.
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Norway28653 Posts
On April 10 2017 18:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
According to new polls testing Mélenchon in the second round, it seems that he would win over Le Pen by a higher margin than Fillon and would lose more narrowly to Macron.
Fillon has "only" 10 points lead to Le Pen (55 to 45) while Macron would crush her 61 - 39. Fillon is now in fourth position for the second round.
Looks like either Macron or Mélenchon will be our next president. For a progressive left winger, it's not fun at all : I have the choice between two version of the "left" I don't believe in at all.
Better than choosing between Le Pen and Fillon! 
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EPT
