EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 770
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LightSpectra
United States2323 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28779 Posts
Worker rights and combating 'social dumping' is used as an argument from the (very small) leftist parties that actually want to leave the EFTA agreement as well, but I don't really know if you can attribute Norwegian worker rights (which are indeed close to the best in the world) to being outside the EU, my understanding is that this is one area where we've adopted a vast majority of EU regulations. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 10 2017 09:08 bardtown wrote: Does Melenchon favour basic income or is that only Hamon? The idea of a 'far right' vs 'far left' run off is pretty interesting, though not necessarily good. Mélenchon is radical left, not far-left. He's pretty much the equivalent of Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos (and Syriza before Tspiras capitulated; Mélenchon still works with people like Zoé Kanstantopoúlou who refused the diktats of the troïka), i.e. the left returning to its fundamentals as a reaction to the impasse of the governmental “left” endlessly drifting towards the centre/right and thus failing to serve its social base. Nope, Mélenchon is against the universal base income. He said that the idea was interesting but not ready (as evidenced by the fact that Hamon changed it like half a dozen of times since he first presented it... his “universal” income is not even universal anymore in his last version, there are conditions of resources). His goal is classic full employment, in particular with the energy transition and the reduction of working time. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On April 10 2017 21:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: Norway is indeed outside the EU, but as part of the EFTA agreement we've adopted like three quarters of EU rules and regulations, and we are part of Schengen. Stuff like the four EU freedoms (http://www.europeanpolicy.org/en/european-policies/single-market.html) is in full force in Norway as well. Worker rights and combating 'social dumping' is used as an argument from the (very small) leftist parties that actually want to leave the EFTA agreement as well, but I don't really know if you can attribute Norwegian worker rights (which are indeed close to the best in the world) to being outside the EU, my understanding is that this is one area where we've adopted a vast majority of EU regulations. I'm not saying that you have the best workers rights because you are outside the EU, but that you have them despite being outside the EU. If you want to see the rights that are guaranteed by the EU you look to the lowest standard required to be a member, which you find in eastern Europe. You cannot attribute the successes of western European countries, which exceed EU requirements on more or less every front, to the EU. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States2323 Posts
On April 10 2017 21:59 TheDwf wrote: Mélenchon is radical left, not far-left. He's pretty much the equivalent of Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos (and Syriza before Tspiras capitulated; Mélenchon still works with people like Zoé Kanstantopoúlou who refused the diktats of the troïka), i.e. the left returning to its fundamentals as a reaction to the impasse of the governmental “left” endlessly drifting towards the centre/right and thus failing to serve its social base. I don't think left-right makes much sense when you're comparing politicians from different countries. Bernie Sanders looks radically left just because America's welfare state is so paltry compared to the rest of the first-world. 8 years of Sanders rule in America would still be more right-wing than 8 years of a conservative's rule in Sweden or Denmark. On the topic of the French presidential elections, I just read that Le Pen is denying that France aided the Nazis in rounding up French Jews. So much for putting antisemitism in the past FN... (tl;dr Her argument is that the Vichy Regime was not "really" France.) | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28779 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 10 2017 22:34 LightSpectra wrote: I don't think left-right makes much sense when you're comparing politicians from different countries. Bernie Sanders looks radically left just because America's welfare state is so paltry compared to the rest of the first-world. 8 years of Sanders rule in America would still be more right-wing than 8 years of a conservative's rule in Sweden or Denmark. It does, but naturally you have to adjust to the different political realities of each country. Of course Sanders would simply be a moderate social-democrat in Europe, while he appears like a dishevelled bolchevik to some in the USA, but as you say it's simply because the median point of the US political spectrum is ridiculously to the right compared with Europe. But when you compare the campaign, the rhetoric, the political line of the program and the composition of the social base, things do line up. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28779 Posts
On April 10 2017 22:34 LightSpectra wrote: I don't think left-right makes much sense when you're comparing politicians from different countries. Bernie Sanders looks radically left just because America's welfare state is so paltry compared to the rest of the first-world. 8 years of Sanders rule in America would still be more right-wing than 8 years of a conservative's rule in Sweden or Denmark. On the topic of the French presidential elections, I just read that Le Pen is denying that France aided the Nazis in rounding up French Jews. So much for putting antisemitism in the past FN... (tl;dr Her argument is that the Vichy Regime was not "really" France.) Sanders qualifies as a leftist in Europe as well. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States2323 Posts
On April 10 2017 22:44 Liquid`Drone wrote: Sanders qualifies as a leftist in Europe as well. Makes sense in continental Europe, but I wouldn't see why in Scandinavia. He calls for America to adopt the Nordic model, so by your (Norwegian) standards he'd be around where your moderates/conservatives are, no? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28779 Posts
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LightSpectra
United States2323 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On April 10 2017 23:40 Liquid`Drone wrote: Norway's political direction for the past 60 years has predominantly been dictated by our labor party (social democrats). But when I hear Sanders speak, he sometimes sounds more like the socialist left party - which is further to the left of the labor party. Stuff like him supporting the Sandinistas during the 80s is consistent with this - he's consistently, for decades, held positions that would make him either part of the leftist side of our labor party, or part of the socialist left. From what I've seen, I'd honestly estimate that his political positions for the past 30 years of consistently group him in like, the most leftist quarter of the Norwegian population. The Sandinista position was one that showed how far gone Sanders is/was. It's nice to hear a Norwegian perspective on him, though I wasn't expecting him to rank in the most leftist quarter of your political scene. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28779 Posts
The thing is just that very influential segments of your republican party has distanced itself from reality and sanity. But the reasonable republicans, Huntsman etc, could easily be members of our conservative party. Ordinary republicans and Norwegian conservatives are not really separated by ideology, they're separated by what policies can be implemented in our respective countries, not what policies they want to implement. And if Sanders was a Norwegian, I'm certain he'd either be either part of the left wing of our labor party or part of the socialist left. He would be incredibly out of place with our conservatives. And in the same way you can argue that Sanders has wanted a 'scandinavification' of the US, our conservatives have wanted an americanization of Norway - although much like how 'socialist' was a word non-grata in american politics, this hasn't been something you could get away with stating in those words. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28779 Posts
On April 11 2017 00:28 Danglars wrote: The Sandinista position was one that showed how far gone Sanders is/was. It's nice to hear a Norwegian perspective on him, though I wasn't expecting him to rank in the most leftist quarter of your political scene. It's fair to rank Sanders as a typical Norwegian social democrat, in which case he'd be part of the 40 percentile most leftward group. But our social democratic party encompasses 35% of the population, so it's not really a monolithic group, and I'm fairly certain he'd be part of the more leftist segment of the social democratic party. But he's distinctly different from our conservatives. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On April 10 2017 21:59 TheDwf wrote: Mélenchon is radical left, not far-left. He's pretty much the equivalent of Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos (and Syriza before Tspiras capitulated; Mélenchon still works with people like Zoé Kanstantopoúlou who refused the diktats of the troïka), i.e. the left returning to its fundamentals as a reaction to the impasse of the governmental “left” endlessly drifting towards the centre/right and thus failing to serve its social base. Nope, Mélenchon is against the universal base income. He said that the idea was interesting but not ready (as evidenced by the fact that Hamon changed it like half a dozen of times since he first presented it... his “universal” income is not even universal anymore in his last version, there are conditions of resources). His goal is classic full employment, in particular with the energy transition and the reduction of working time. Reduction of working time always makes me laugh. France is at 35 hours a week. I'm doing 40, waking up at 4:30 AM every day and it's easy. I still have so much free time. I don't even get why the French are asking for more social measures. They already get free healthcare, free education and stupidly good unemployment benefits. If they get fired they get a year's salary to take home with them. It's absurd. What more could you ask for? I'm trying to look at it from the left's perspective here. My take is that there are quite a few people who are living at the minimum wage, which is 1100€ per month (or, €8 per hour). That's indeed, not a lot. Between rent, fuel and food, I don't think you're saving any money there. If you have kids, even more so. I think the real question is not about social measures. The question is how to get people access to better paying jobs. Let's not pretend they don't exist. The real problem in France is the ongoing nepotism and corruption. You're my buddy, I'm your buddy. I'll get you this nice job here if you want, because you're my friend. It's also so hard to get hired, simply because it's so hard to fire anyone. Also of course, the French love their shitty diplomas. If you have worked in a crappy job before, that stigma sticks to you when looking for a job. The French are disgusting with that kind of attitude. In the USA at least if you work at McDonalds and go to a job interview for something better, you tell them you want to go to the next level and they're waiting for you with open arms. They don't give a shit where you've worked before and they're ready to accept the attitude of "I'm not satisfied with my current job". The USA system is unforgiving but it's not like you get stuck where you're at. I came from France to the USA and got two job offers right off the bat just because I interviewed well. It's absurd. Compare that to France where supermarkets wouldn't even hire me during my immigration down time. I had to go to temp agencies and only then I worked like 3 days and got paid shit for it. The French need to rethink their work regulations, because quite frankly it's just stifling their economy. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
I will, however, say that anyone who supports UHC and free college for all, and other staples in Europe - government funding for family planning, not shilling for religion every second, not stroking the cock of corporations and the military-industrial complex in the most absurd ways - would fall left of center in the US. Which, incidentally, seems to be the European right. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28779 Posts
In Norway I think that literally every single person with a full time job has enough money. Some professions are underpaid and some make a bit too much, but the big separation is between people with full time jobs and people who only work part time or are unemployed. To me, it makes no sense to focus on increased economic output, I'd much rather decrease my future work load by 20% and stay on my current level of income than stay on the same work load and increase my income by 20%. | ||
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TMG26
Portugal2017 Posts
On April 11 2017 00:58 Liquid`Drone wrote: I'd much rather decrease my future work load by 20% and stay on my current level of income than stay on the same work load and increase my income by 20%. Completely agree. Free time is underrated. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On April 11 2017 00:58 Liquid`Drone wrote: Well would you not be able to enjoy 5 hours more? In Norway I think that literally every single person with a full time job has enough money. Some professions are underpaid and some make a bit too much, but the big separation is between people with full time jobs and people who only work part time or are unemployed. To me, it makes no sense to focus on increased economic output, I'd much rather decrease my future work load by 20% and stay on my current level of income than stay on the same work load and increase my income by 20%. To each their own. Honestly at 40 hours a week, I'm not really missing free time too much. I still have time to do whatever I want mostly. The money is good as well so I can pay for rent, fuel and food easily (rent is pretty expensive too) and still put a little money aside for flight training. Income matters to me since I'm engaged in flight training and hour building as a professional pilot. Later on I'd like to buy a small plane or something too. These are things which I can do in the USA but I wouldn't even dream about doing in France. To be fair though, my job is really, really easy. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10866 Posts
40 hours... i had to do more during my apprenticeship at the age of 16... | ||
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