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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 770

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States1451 Posts
April 10 2017 12:52 GMT
#15381
Mélenchon winning would be hilarious. I think baby boomers in America would go insane at the thought of an actual communist winning an election in the first-world.
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3 was the greatest tournament of all time
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
April 10 2017 12:57 GMT
#15382
Norway is indeed outside the EU, but as part of the EFTA agreement we've adopted like three quarters of EU rules and regulations, and we are part of Schengen. Stuff like the four EU freedoms (http://www.europeanpolicy.org/en/european-policies/single-market.html) is in full force in Norway as well.

Worker rights and combating 'social dumping' is used as an argument from the (very small) leftist parties that actually want to leave the EFTA agreement as well, but I don't really know if you can attribute Norwegian worker rights (which are indeed close to the best in the world) to being outside the EU, my understanding is that this is one area where we've adopted a vast majority of EU regulations.
Moderator
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 10 2017 12:59 GMT
#15383
On April 10 2017 09:08 bardtown wrote:
Does Melenchon favour basic income or is that only Hamon? The idea of a 'far right' vs 'far left' run off is pretty interesting, though not necessarily good.

Mélenchon is radical left, not far-left. He's pretty much the equivalent of Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos (and Syriza before Tspiras capitulated; Mélenchon still works with people like Zoé Kanstantopoúlou who refused the diktats of the troïka), i.e. the left returning to its fundamentals as a reaction to the impasse of the governmental “left” endlessly drifting towards the centre/right and thus failing to serve its social base.

Nope, Mélenchon is against the universal base income. He said that the idea was interesting but not ready (as evidenced by the fact that Hamon changed it like half a dozen of times since he first presented it... his “universal” income is not even universal anymore in his last version, there are conditions of resources). His goal is classic full employment, in particular with the energy transition and the reduction of working time.
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
April 10 2017 13:33 GMT
#15384
On April 10 2017 21:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Norway is indeed outside the EU, but as part of the EFTA agreement we've adopted like three quarters of EU rules and regulations, and we are part of Schengen. Stuff like the four EU freedoms (http://www.europeanpolicy.org/en/european-policies/single-market.html) is in full force in Norway as well.

Worker rights and combating 'social dumping' is used as an argument from the (very small) leftist parties that actually want to leave the EFTA agreement as well, but I don't really know if you can attribute Norwegian worker rights (which are indeed close to the best in the world) to being outside the EU, my understanding is that this is one area where we've adopted a vast majority of EU regulations.

I'm not saying that you have the best workers rights because you are outside the EU, but that you have them despite being outside the EU. If you want to see the rights that are guaranteed by the EU you look to the lowest standard required to be a member, which you find in eastern Europe. You cannot attribute the successes of western European countries, which exceed EU requirements on more or less every front, to the EU.
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States1451 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 13:35:47
April 10 2017 13:34 GMT
#15385
On April 10 2017 21:59 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2017 09:08 bardtown wrote:
Does Melenchon favour basic income or is that only Hamon? The idea of a 'far right' vs 'far left' run off is pretty interesting, though not necessarily good.

Mélenchon is radical left, not far-left. He's pretty much the equivalent of Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos (and Syriza before Tspiras capitulated; Mélenchon still works with people like Zoé Kanstantopoúlou who refused the diktats of the troïka), i.e. the left returning to its fundamentals as a reaction to the impasse of the governmental “left” endlessly drifting towards the centre/right and thus failing to serve its social base.


I don't think left-right makes much sense when you're comparing politicians from different countries. Bernie Sanders looks radically left just because America's welfare state is so paltry compared to the rest of the first-world. 8 years of Sanders rule in America would still be more right-wing than 8 years of a conservative's rule in Sweden or Denmark.

On the topic of the French presidential elections, I just read that Le Pen is denying that France aided the Nazis in rounding up French Jews. So much for putting antisemitism in the past FN... (tl;dr Her argument is that the Vichy Regime was not "really" France.)
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3 was the greatest tournament of all time
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
April 10 2017 13:39 GMT
#15386
I definitely agree that the successes of western European countries, in particular Scandinavian, can not be attributed to the EU at all. But I also don't think any north western european country has been particularly hurt by membership.
Moderator
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 10 2017 13:44 GMT
#15387
On April 10 2017 22:34 LightSpectra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2017 21:59 TheDwf wrote:
On April 10 2017 09:08 bardtown wrote:
Does Melenchon favour basic income or is that only Hamon? The idea of a 'far right' vs 'far left' run off is pretty interesting, though not necessarily good.

Mélenchon is radical left, not far-left. He's pretty much the equivalent of Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos (and Syriza before Tspiras capitulated; Mélenchon still works with people like Zoé Kanstantopoúlou who refused the diktats of the troïka), i.e. the left returning to its fundamentals as a reaction to the impasse of the governmental “left” endlessly drifting towards the centre/right and thus failing to serve its social base.


I don't think left-right makes much sense when you're comparing politicians from different countries. Bernie Sanders looks radically left just because America's welfare state is so paltry compared to the rest of the first-world. 8 years of Sanders rule in America would still be more right-wing than 8 years of a conservative's rule in Sweden or Denmark.

It does, but naturally you have to adjust to the different political realities of each country. Of course Sanders would simply be a moderate social-democrat in Europe, while he appears like a dishevelled bolchevik to some in the USA, but as you say it's simply because the median point of the US political spectrum is ridiculously to the right compared with Europe. But when you compare the campaign, the rhetoric, the political line of the program and the composition of the social base, things do line up.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
April 10 2017 13:44 GMT
#15388
On April 10 2017 22:34 LightSpectra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2017 21:59 TheDwf wrote:
On April 10 2017 09:08 bardtown wrote:
Does Melenchon favour basic income or is that only Hamon? The idea of a 'far right' vs 'far left' run off is pretty interesting, though not necessarily good.

Mélenchon is radical left, not far-left. He's pretty much the equivalent of Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos (and Syriza before Tspiras capitulated; Mélenchon still works with people like Zoé Kanstantopoúlou who refused the diktats of the troïka), i.e. the left returning to its fundamentals as a reaction to the impasse of the governmental “left” endlessly drifting towards the centre/right and thus failing to serve its social base.


I don't think left-right makes much sense when you're comparing politicians from different countries. Bernie Sanders looks radically left just because America's welfare state is so paltry compared to the rest of the first-world. 8 years of Sanders rule in America would still be more right-wing than 8 years of a conservative's rule in Sweden or Denmark.

On the topic of the French presidential elections, I just read that Le Pen is denying that France aided the Nazis in rounding up French Jews. So much for putting antisemitism in the past FN... (tl;dr Her argument is that the Vichy Regime was not "really" France.)


Sanders qualifies as a leftist in Europe as well.
Moderator
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States1451 Posts
April 10 2017 13:48 GMT
#15389
On April 10 2017 22:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2017 22:34 LightSpectra wrote:
On April 10 2017 21:59 TheDwf wrote:
On April 10 2017 09:08 bardtown wrote:
Does Melenchon favour basic income or is that only Hamon? The idea of a 'far right' vs 'far left' run off is pretty interesting, though not necessarily good.

Mélenchon is radical left, not far-left. He's pretty much the equivalent of Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos (and Syriza before Tspiras capitulated; Mélenchon still works with people like Zoé Kanstantopoúlou who refused the diktats of the troïka), i.e. the left returning to its fundamentals as a reaction to the impasse of the governmental “left” endlessly drifting towards the centre/right and thus failing to serve its social base.


I don't think left-right makes much sense when you're comparing politicians from different countries. Bernie Sanders looks radically left just because America's welfare state is so paltry compared to the rest of the first-world. 8 years of Sanders rule in America would still be more right-wing than 8 years of a conservative's rule in Sweden or Denmark.

On the topic of the French presidential elections, I just read that Le Pen is denying that France aided the Nazis in rounding up French Jews. So much for putting antisemitism in the past FN... (tl;dr Her argument is that the Vichy Regime was not "really" France.)


Sanders qualifies as a leftist in Europe as well.


Makes sense in continental Europe, but I wouldn't see why in Scandinavia. He calls for America to adopt the Nordic model, so by your (Norwegian) standards he'd be around where your moderates/conservatives are, no?
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3 was the greatest tournament of all time
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
April 10 2017 14:40 GMT
#15390
Norway's political direction for the past 60 years has predominantly been dictated by our labor party (social democrats). But when I hear Sanders speak, he sometimes sounds more like the socialist left party - which is further to the left of the labor party. Stuff like him supporting the Sandinistas during the 80s is consistent with this - he's consistently, for decades, held positions that would make him either part of the leftist side of our labor party, or part of the socialist left. From what I've seen, I'd honestly estimate that his political positions for the past 30 years of consistently group him in like, the most leftist quarter of the Norwegian population.
Moderator
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States1451 Posts
April 10 2017 15:16 GMT
#15391
Rhetoric is one thing, but I'm talking about platform. In Scandinavia even the conservative parties don't dare abolish universal healthcare and other social safety nets, so your right-wing is the equivalent of America's far-left.
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3 was the greatest tournament of all time
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
April 10 2017 15:28 GMT
#15392
On April 10 2017 23:40 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Norway's political direction for the past 60 years has predominantly been dictated by our labor party (social democrats). But when I hear Sanders speak, he sometimes sounds more like the socialist left party - which is further to the left of the labor party. Stuff like him supporting the Sandinistas during the 80s is consistent with this - he's consistently, for decades, held positions that would make him either part of the leftist side of our labor party, or part of the socialist left. From what I've seen, I'd honestly estimate that his political positions for the past 30 years of consistently group him in like, the most leftist quarter of the Norwegian population.

The Sandinista position was one that showed how far gone Sanders is/was. It's nice to hear a Norwegian perspective on him, though I wasn't expecting him to rank in the most leftist quarter of your political scene.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
April 10 2017 15:44 GMT
#15393
Universal healthcare is one area where our conservative and right wing parties are in line with both Sanders and our left wing parties. And there are lots of societal and cultural differences that make certain policies untouchable even if they don't make sense from a right wing perspective in Norway or a left wing perspective in the US, and even if Sanders argues for greatly increased taxation then he's not arguing for immediate adoption of Danish top tax brackets because that'd be far too great of a jump compared to current American levels. But it's a myth (I might have perpetuated it myself, I guess) that our right wing parties are leftist by american standards. The current Norwegian government is the most right wing government we've ever had, it's a coalition between the Conservative and the Progress party, our two most right wing parties with parliamentary representation. (Not a majority coalition, so they still need support from other parties, which significantly keeps them in check. ) The Conservative party considers the republican party their sister party. And the leader of the progress party and our current minister of finance, Siv Jensen, has stated that she considers Ayn Rand her predominant political inspiration. Important members of the same party have been very supportive towards Trump.

The thing is just that very influential segments of your republican party has distanced itself from reality and sanity. But the reasonable republicans, Huntsman etc, could easily be members of our conservative party. Ordinary republicans and Norwegian conservatives are not really separated by ideology, they're separated by what policies can be implemented in our respective countries, not what policies they want to implement.

And if Sanders was a Norwegian, I'm certain he'd either be either part of the left wing of our labor party or part of the socialist left. He would be incredibly out of place with our conservatives. And in the same way you can argue that Sanders has wanted a 'scandinavification' of the US, our conservatives have wanted an americanization of Norway - although much like how 'socialist' was a word non-grata in american politics, this hasn't been something you could get away with stating in those words.
Moderator
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
April 10 2017 15:51 GMT
#15394
On April 11 2017 00:28 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2017 23:40 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Norway's political direction for the past 60 years has predominantly been dictated by our labor party (social democrats). But when I hear Sanders speak, he sometimes sounds more like the socialist left party - which is further to the left of the labor party. Stuff like him supporting the Sandinistas during the 80s is consistent with this - he's consistently, for decades, held positions that would make him either part of the leftist side of our labor party, or part of the socialist left. From what I've seen, I'd honestly estimate that his political positions for the past 30 years of consistently group him in like, the most leftist quarter of the Norwegian population.

The Sandinista position was one that showed how far gone Sanders is/was. It's nice to hear a Norwegian perspective on him, though I wasn't expecting him to rank in the most leftist quarter of your political scene.


It's fair to rank Sanders as a typical Norwegian social democrat, in which case he'd be part of the 40 percentile most leftward group. But our social democratic party encompasses 35% of the population, so it's not really a monolithic group, and I'm fairly certain he'd be part of the more leftist segment of the social democratic party. But he's distinctly different from our conservatives.
Moderator
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 16:02:59
April 10 2017 15:53 GMT
#15395
On April 10 2017 21:59 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2017 09:08 bardtown wrote:
Does Melenchon favour basic income or is that only Hamon? The idea of a 'far right' vs 'far left' run off is pretty interesting, though not necessarily good.

Mélenchon is radical left, not far-left. He's pretty much the equivalent of Sanders, Corbyn, Podemos (and Syriza before Tspiras capitulated; Mélenchon still works with people like Zoé Kanstantopoúlou who refused the diktats of the troïka), i.e. the left returning to its fundamentals as a reaction to the impasse of the governmental “left” endlessly drifting towards the centre/right and thus failing to serve its social base.

Nope, Mélenchon is against the universal base income. He said that the idea was interesting but not ready (as evidenced by the fact that Hamon changed it like half a dozen of times since he first presented it... his “universal” income is not even universal anymore in his last version, there are conditions of resources). His goal is classic full employment, in particular with the energy transition and the reduction of working time.


Reduction of working time always makes me laugh. France is at 35 hours a week. I'm doing 40, waking up at 4:30 AM every day and it's easy. I still have so much free time.

I don't even get why the French are asking for more social measures. They already get free healthcare, free education and stupidly good unemployment benefits. If they get fired they get a year's salary to take home with them. It's absurd. What more could you ask for?

I'm trying to look at it from the left's perspective here. My take is that there are quite a few people who are living at the minimum wage, which is 1100€ per month (or, €8 per hour). That's indeed, not a lot. Between rent, fuel and food, I don't think you're saving any money there. If you have kids, even more so.

I think the real question is not about social measures. The question is how to get people access to better paying jobs. Let's not pretend they don't exist.

The real problem in France is the ongoing nepotism and corruption. You're my buddy, I'm your buddy. I'll get you this nice job here if you want, because you're my friend. It's also so hard to get hired, simply because it's so hard to fire anyone. Also of course, the French love their shitty diplomas. If you have worked in a crappy job before, that stigma sticks to you when looking for a job. The French are disgusting with that kind of attitude. In the USA at least if you work at McDonalds and go to a job interview for something better, you tell them you want to go to the next level and they're waiting for you with open arms. They don't give a shit where you've worked before and they're ready to accept the attitude of "I'm not satisfied with my current job". The USA system is unforgiving but it's not like you get stuck where you're at.

I came from France to the USA and got two job offers right off the bat just because I interviewed well. It's absurd. Compare that to France where supermarkets wouldn't even hire me during my immigration down time. I had to go to temp agencies and only then I worked like 3 days and got paid shit for it. The French need to rethink their work regulations, because quite frankly it's just stifling their economy.
maru lover forever
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
April 10 2017 15:57 GMT
#15396
Sanders falls pretty squarely into what would be called a social democrat in Europeland.

I will, however, say that anyone who supports UHC and free college for all, and other staples in Europe - government funding for family planning, not shilling for religion every second, not stroking the cock of corporations and the military-industrial complex in the most absurd ways - would fall left of center in the US. Which, incidentally, seems to be the European right.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
April 10 2017 15:58 GMT
#15397
Well would you not be able to enjoy 5 hours more?

In Norway I think that literally every single person with a full time job has enough money. Some professions are underpaid and some make a bit too much, but the big separation is between people with full time jobs and people who only work part time or are unemployed. To me, it makes no sense to focus on increased economic output, I'd much rather decrease my future work load by 20% and stay on my current level of income than stay on the same work load and increase my income by 20%.
Moderator
TMG26
Profile Joined July 2012
Portugal2017 Posts
April 10 2017 15:59 GMT
#15398
On April 11 2017 00:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'd much rather decrease my future work load by 20% and stay on my current level of income than stay on the same work load and increase my income by 20%.


Completely agree. Free time is underrated.
Supporter of the situational Blink Dagger on Storm.
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-10 16:06:26
April 10 2017 16:05 GMT
#15399
On April 11 2017 00:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Well would you not be able to enjoy 5 hours more?

In Norway I think that literally every single person with a full time job has enough money. Some professions are underpaid and some make a bit too much, but the big separation is between people with full time jobs and people who only work part time or are unemployed. To me, it makes no sense to focus on increased economic output, I'd much rather decrease my future work load by 20% and stay on my current level of income than stay on the same work load and increase my income by 20%.


To each their own. Honestly at 40 hours a week, I'm not really missing free time too much. I still have time to do whatever I want mostly. The money is good as well so I can pay for rent, fuel and food easily (rent is pretty expensive too) and still put a little money aside for flight training.

Income matters to me since I'm engaged in flight training and hour building as a professional pilot. Later on I'd like to buy a small plane or something too.

These are things which I can do in the USA but I wouldn't even dream about doing in France.

To be fair though, my job is really, really easy.
maru lover forever
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10699 Posts
April 10 2017 16:11 GMT
#15400
A 40h workload isn't big tho. Things get harsh at 48+ because then it starts to feel like eat/sleep/work/repeat, at least for me.
40 hours... i had to do more during my apprenticeship at the age of 16...
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