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On January 21 2016 03:30 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 03:24 dismiss wrote:
But let's get back to the fallacy of why we should be tolerant with raping idiots because they're refugees but not those who don't share your personal political ideology. Y'know can't be tolerant of intolerance, so why do people who don't want to adapt to our societal values get an exception? Except that's not true. Nobody is tolerating rape. At least nobody I've ever met, and nobody's getting an exception.
Oh sorry, we did tell the women who were sexually assaulted that they should have stayed an arms length away while trying to hide that it ever took place, then we let the ape who quite literally wanted to "fuck someone to death" walk free again. That sure showed them.
Or maybe those guys that make a living off of thieving and at most get a week in a cozy German police station before being sent on their merry way.
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We're living in a state of law and we need to be able to proof that someone is guilty of a crime before locking them up. That's how it works, doesn't matter how upset you are. When it comes to sexual crimes sadly the conviction rate is very low.
Petty crime like theft could certainly be punished more harshly I actually said that myself a few days ago, to show especially young and first offenders that they can't do what they want.
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Idk, I for one do not want stricter laws as the price for the privilege of supporting people who don't want to abide by the rules of our society.
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On January 21 2016 03:51 dismiss wrote:
Idk, I for one do not want stricter laws as the price for the privilege of supporting people who don't want abide by the rules of our society.
The laws would not be more harsh, rather the punishments for breaking the laws would be.
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On January 21 2016 04:14 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 03:51 dismiss wrote:
Idk, I for one do not want stricter laws as the price for the privilege of supporting people who don't want abide by the rules of our society. The laws would not be more harsh, rather the punishments for breaking the laws would be.
If that were true, it wouldn't be any better. 
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On January 21 2016 04:22 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 04:14 Incognoto wrote:On January 21 2016 03:51 dismiss wrote:
Idk, I for one do not want stricter laws as the price for the privilege of supporting people who don't want abide by the rules of our society. The laws would not be more harsh, rather the punishments for breaking the laws would be. If that were true, it wouldn't be any better.
Yes let's make harsh laws for everyone, send all men for equality re-education and make total observation legal. Just because some consider it nice to let millions of young males from tribal, violent and uneducated backgrounds into the country that will need state support for most of their live! Why that's a brilliant solution. Btw guess who will not be deterred by laws because they hide in large groups? The term "muslim 1on1" for 5on1 fights is not exactly a new term.
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On January 21 2016 03:11 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm not going to talk to people who protest with self-made gallows and depictions of Merkel in a headscarf lol. These people have lost their fucking minds collectively and that's a fact. And to your question why they only have 10% support, because their narrative is nonsense and there is no silent majority going to 'turn the tide' in Germany. They're a bunch of afraid old people who use every incident possible to agitate and in two weeks they'll have forgotten what they were upset about anyway.
if you are dismissing every party that has 10% or less in polls as "nonsense" you run out of partys very soon. it also displays a very poor understanding of democracy if you are unwilling to talk to groups of people just because you dont like their ideas and beliefs. not that it comes as a surprise to me that you act this way and i had and still have my fair share of dealings with left-wing folks who are indistinguishable from the most hardcore nazis out there up to the point where i had to basically flee a bar because the guys i went there with were jews (no joke, we got threatend once they found out they were jews from israel and not palestinians).
your way of dealing with beliefs you dont like is actually the best way to enhance the approval for such beliefs because ignoring or verbally attacking those groups (but not dismantling their arguments) only strengthens the groups cohesion which is a strong basis for further growth. the reason we have an afd in the first place is because the cdu completely failed to do their job, which is to be a home for the conservative part of the population. the afd or pegida isnt a new thing, i think they are around for a bit over 2 years and in those 2 years they manage to selfdestruct, rebuild and rise to be the (tied) 3rd strongest political party according to current surveys. (http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/)
their approval ratings since 2013 doubled and they are not all that far away from surpassing die linke and the green party in their respective historical best ratings. the fdps 14.6% from 2009 is also possible if the afd just grows a tiny bit more. mind you that this happend without anyone ever talking to them at all, how can you think that ignoring them further will be of any help?
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Appeasing them doesn't work. The Tories tried to appease the Ukip voters and the Ukip only got stronger, you'll only give them more ammunition if you're adopting their positions. At 10% the AfD is about 41% away from governing, because no party in Germany is going to form a coalition with them, and a majority of people in this country will never support their platform. This is the one important lesson that Germany has learned from its past and it's not going to change in the near future, and it's also the reason why the developments in France or Denmark won't happen here.
We've always had these upsurges on the populist right in the past, it isn't a new phenomenon. In the 60's and 70's the NPD regularly scored 8-10%, in the 90's with the Eastern European refugee crisis going on they got a temporary boost. Give it two or three years and when the world hasn't ended they'll run out of steam.
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so its putting your head in the sand and hoping that nothing will ever happen?
well, thats refreshing, at least you are surrendering with your subjective moral highground.
edit: stop making up facts:
http://www.wahlrecht.de/ergebnisse/bundestag.htm
the npd had whooping 0.6% in 1972 and less than 5 in the elections before that.
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in several states not on the federal level, sorry didn't make that clear. I'm not putting my head in the sand, I don't need to lol. Some things just need time to work out, and the AfD doesn't actually have any solutions, neither has any of her European counterparts for that matter. As I said the Afd isn't going to govern anything. We can bet on it if you like.
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On January 21 2016 04:52 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 04:22 dismiss wrote:On January 21 2016 04:14 Incognoto wrote:On January 21 2016 03:51 dismiss wrote:
Idk, I for one do not want stricter laws as the price for the privilege of supporting people who don't want abide by the rules of our society. The laws would not be more harsh, rather the punishments for breaking the laws would be. If that were true, it wouldn't be any better. Yes let's make harsh laws for everyone, send all men for equality re-education and make total observation legal. Just because some consider it nice to let millions of young males from tribal, violent and uneducated backgrounds into the country that will need state support for most of their live! Why that's a brilliant solution. Btw guess who will not be deterred by laws because they hide in large groups? The term "muslim 1on1" for 5on1 fights is not exactly a new term.
The laws are not the problem, it is their enforcement.
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On January 21 2016 05:41 Nyxisto wrote:
in several states not on the federal level, sorry didn't make that clear. I'm not putting my head in the sand, I don't need to lol. As I said the Afd isn't going to govern anything. We can bet on it if you like.
well you are still only partly right as the only time the npd got a bit stronger was between 1966 and 1969 and after that they completely disappeared until the 90s in exclusively east germany.
there are actually stunning similarities to today. the three main reasons for their success seem to have been:
- an economic downswing leaving a lot of people unsure of their future
- a great coalition in the bundestag with no meaningful opposition
- the increasing importance of the apo
point 1 and 2 are exactly like what we have today, the third not so much but we do see a slowly rising concern for liberty rights in the population just like in the 60s.
+ Show Spoiler +
there are differences regarding the development though:
- our social politics are a complete failure and neither decrease the inequality nor increase the economic situation for most people. average wages have fallen, unemployment is high and they just change the way they count it each year to mask the fact that there is very little net job creation. additionaly our retarded focus on exports makes us too reliant on the world economy and its hard to say in which direction it goes. with our sub-par educational system, partly non existent infrastructure (i am talking about you east germany and nrw) and aging population i dont see us outproducing the negative effects anytime soon.
- its very unlikely we will have anything else than a great coalition in the near future. up until the 90s there were only 3 partys in the bundestag. right now there are 4 with the fdp close by, 2017 we might as well have 6. that makes it impossible for anything else than what we have now. with the cdu going into opposition in 1969 they made effort to distinguish themselves more from the spd to get those voters back. but i doubt they will do this in the current state of the cdu and spd.
people vote for extreme partys when they are either not heard by the established ones or when there is economic hardship. they stop voting for them when those reasons are fixed. i dont see them fixed so they will continue voting for weird partys and with an ongoing stream of refugees they will continue voting for partys who are opposed to that.
something almost completely different:
opening the borders to an unspecified amount of people is inherently dumb when you want a set of unchangeable values by which your society lives by and a minimum standard of wealth within your society. thats logically derived from the simple fact that resources are finite. every time i hear someone claim that there cant be an upper limit for refugees i have to questions his sanity. i really wish people would start using their brains to think instead of their stomach or hearts. would make life so much better for everyone.
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Zurich15365 Posts
And once again it feels like I live in a different Germany than hfglgg. In mine the economic situation for most people had improved, real wages are on the rise, unemployment is low to non-existent, still jobs are being created, our educational system is above average, our infrastructure good (<- here we could definitely do more).
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Then I feel like you aren't keeping up with the news if you think wages in Germany rose much over the last decade or that Germany is doing well in Pisa/ on educational spending.
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The government could make it rain donuts from the heavens and a certain part of the population wouldn't be satisfied. (or claim that Sigmar Gabriel has eaten them all). I don't know if it's some kind of post-communist trauma because it seems to affect people behind the old Iron-Curtain disproportionately, but god forbid anybody having anything but a completely cynical outlook on life and every change in the country. Instead of accusing people of "not engaging in debate", engaging in reality might be a good idea because Muslims actually make pretty decent neighbors and you can still live a pretty good life here.
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On January 21 2016 08:59 Nyxisto wrote:
The government could make it rain donuts from the heavens and a certain part of the population wouldn't be satisfied. (or claim that Sigmar Gabriel has eaten them all). I don't know if it's some kind of post-communist trauma because it seems to affect people behind the old Iron-Curtain disproportionately, but god forbid anybody having anything but a completely cynical outlook on life and every change in the country. Instead of accusing people of "not engaging in debate", engaging in reality might be a good idea because Muslims actually make pretty decent neighbors and you can still live a pretty good life here.
Sorry not everyone is a fan of increased police presence, harsher laws, pickpockets, crazy sexual assault flashmobs, pegida demonstrations and billions of dollars being spent on people who we have 0 ties to.
Pretty crazy to think that not everyone might be on board because they make "good neighbours" right? Nah, everyone should move over because you want to impose your version of reality onto everyone, they don't have a right to want to live their lives, and shape their country the way they deem right.
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On January 21 2016 08:32 zatic wrote:
And once again it feels like I live in a different Germany than hfglgg. In mine the economic situation for most people had improved, real wages are on the rise, unemployment is low to non-existent, still jobs are being created, our educational system is above average, our infrastructure good (<- here we could definitely do more).
http://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-01-20/what-country-is-no-1-not-the-us?int=a14709
weeee o/
(more of a joke than anything else but clearly we're not exactly in hell)
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On January 21 2016 08:59 Nyxisto wrote:
The government could make it rain donuts from the heavens and a certain part of the population wouldn't be satisfied. (or claim that Sigmar Gabriel has eaten them all). I don't know if it's some kind of post-communist trauma because it seems to affect people behind the old Iron-Curtain disproportionately, but god forbid anybody having anything but a completely cynical outlook on life and every change in the country. Instead of accusing people of "not engaging in debate", engaging in reality might be a good idea because Muslims actually make pretty decent neighbors and you can still live a pretty good life here.
Oh the sweet irony. Engaiging in reality you say?
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Muslim good neighbors yeah, then they gather in number and start their sharia protests. And enforce sharia by themselves on some areas
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On January 21 2016 10:39 TMG26 wrote:
Muslim good neighbors yeah, then they gather in number and start their sharia protests. And enforce sharia by themselves on some areas
This has been my experience with anything more than a diffuse Muslim population. Add in the fact that they generally resort to terrorism when they meet resistance to doing so, and they would happily send woman to detonate suicide vests in a subway or send terrorists to hold a school hostage. Under certain conditions I have seen them directly state that their goal was to undermine the society (ignored by Europe as a whole just as badly as the directly stated desire of most Arab countries to destroy Israel).
However, it's "racist" to recognize this behavior.
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EPT
