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On July 17 2015 08:03 lord_nibbler wrote:I see you are still refusing to learn anything new and keep to your fixed opinion regardless of what people tell you.  The first three paragraphs are full of mistakes and false assumptions, but I give up on correcting them...
As previously mentioned, happy to discuss any logical arguments backed up by evidence.
On July 16 2015 22:38 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 13:01 Evil_Sheep wrote:On July 16 2015 05:36 lord_nibbler wrote:
You are still making the mistake of not differentiating between dept relief and dept restructuring Debt restructuring includes either a) debt relief (aka forgiveness aka haircuts) or b) debt rescheduling (extending maturities etc) Look, although you do not give of a keen on debate vibe, I will try one more time. It does not matter how you (or the BBC apparently) define dept restructuring, it matters how the German government does! And for them there is a clear difference between a 'debt relief' and a 'debt restructuring'. And the later does certainly not include the former.
Debt restructuring: Debt restructuring may involve debt forgiveness and/or debt rescheduling.
Debt relief: In the context of this crisis, debt relief has commonly been taken to mean debt reduction/haircuts, but actually the term is ambiguous and can be debt reduction and/or rescheduling, just like debt restructuring.
I am certain that Merkel is not confused at the terms being thrown around, but it is easy for anyone else to be.
In the eyes of Merkel forgiving debts will never happen, can not happen, is not allowed to happen inside the EZ.
Extending debts and reducing interest rates or pause them for some time is perfectly fine for Merkel. It did happen in 2012 and it will happen in half a year (and they have been saying that, just today Schäuble acknowledged it again).
That pushing a debt into the future and reducing it through inflation is a de facto debt relief in the real world, does not matter at all.
So this conflict between the IMF and Germany, that some commentators make out to be this huge rift, is in actuality relatively small. And if you followed the story of the leaked IMF proposal, you will have realized, that after last Sunday's negotiations IMF does not talk about plain haircuts anymore but uses the word restructuring instead (gee, I wonder why...).
The German position has been, as you said, no debt "haircuts" and, until the weekend deal, Greece maintaining a 3.5% budget surplus for a verrrry long time. Now there is a vague commitment to some sort of rescheduling that will presumably be negotiated in the upcoming bailout negotiations. Syriza's position was debt restructuring in the form of debt reduction and/or debt rescheduling that reduced the budget surplus Germany was asking for, while still adhering to the austerity policy. The IMF has just come out and said either: a large debt reduction, or debt rescheduling with a 30 year grace period, or fiscal transfers. This is far more than what even Syriza was calling for in the negotiations with Germany. In the IMF's own words, Greece requires "debt relief measures that go far beyond what Europe [Germany] has been willing to consider so far."
So yes, it is no exaggeration to say that there is now a huge gap between the IMF and Germany.
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Zurich15362 Posts
On July 17 2015 17:24 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 17:21 Toadesstern wrote:On July 17 2015 17:14 WhiteDog wrote:On July 17 2015 17:12 Velr wrote:
The graph is about who peoples blame and you somehow transform that into which peoples wants to help.
These are two totally diffrent things? Yeah because finding someone guilty or innocent of a behavior is not relevant to weither we punish or not that someone. that's not what the response was though. you: "unlike german people, french and italians want to help greece!" zatic: "german people want to help too... *looky*" and now you changed it to "punish" to fit your idea, which is the other side of the spectrum. And no, responsibility doesn't really have a lot to do with wether or not we want to/ need to help. If you get drunk all by yourself and stumble on the highway I'd still make sure you don't kill yourself. Not in anyway whatsoever supposed to be an analogy to the situation, just shows that you being responsible has very little to do with willingness to help somone if shit is serious and it is if the EU is/was considering humanitarian help. So no, the graph doesn't fit. You're resuming my post to one sentence so that it can match your argument. Here is what I wrote after what you somehow picked for your convenience : Show nested quote +It's not a question of leader, but of public opinion : most french and italian just want to help Greece, as shown in many pools (some posted even in this thread). Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek. Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek.
Most of the people in here don't even want to see reality as it is, as I've been posting fact non stop about this shitstorm and am still seeing the same ignorant argument (like Syriza created this situation...). When you point out that austerity have failed, but that Greece have been doing everything asked from them for the last five years, you still have people that respond to you that the Greek are responsible because they didn't do what they should have... My point was exactly that northern posters criminalize Greece and thus desire to punish it.
Sometimes you are really difficult, you know that. What you are saying here is complete bullshit. You argued that France, Italy want to help Greeks, while Northerners (including Germany) wanted to punish them. I squarely proved you wrong by pointing to a poll from this week that shows a majority in Germany is in favor of further financial help in Greece. Confronted with being simply wrong, you shift your argument to something completely different.
The poll I linked also includes:
Do you trust the Greek government to implement the reforms? Yes: 18% No: 78%
Should Greece remain in the Eurozone: Yes: 62% No: 32%
I am in favor of further financial aid for Greece: Yes: 52% No: 44%
So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers.
I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question.
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Hope I'm not derailing these discussions but had to lol at this
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On July 17 2015 17:03 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 15:06 zatic wrote:On July 17 2015 09:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 17 2015 08:57 Velr wrote:
Because the French and Italian leaders have no balls and hide behind Merkel.
And if your ally in being "nice and bending/not following rules" is Italy.. Well, there is a reason people make fun of Italy since... WW2 ended?
It's not a question of leader, but of public opinion : most french and italian just want to help Greece, as shown in many pools (some posted even in this thread). Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek. As do a majority of Germans, even as of today ( Source, German). I have a very different reading of the opinions in this thread. They are fairly balanced. This was linked a few pages ago : ![[image loading]](http://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/7/10/1436539338837/6510f0f5-210e-49e5-bb5e-2b6704ef4aa5-bestSizeAvailable.png?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=80fc56f650486ee7d4f3635c045a9f27) Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 10:36 cLutZ wrote:On July 17 2015 07:03 lord_nibbler wrote:I liked this small article (in German) in the Spiegel giving some inside on the different viewpoints of Germany and France. So I translated it for you. 
Rule mania or debt community: How Germany and France split the eurozoneBy Stefan Kaiser The dispute over Greece revealed how different the visions for the eurozone are. Germany relies on rules and sanctions, France and others want above all a collective liability. Can this end well?Wolfgang Schäuble is a convinced Europeans. After all we know he believes in European integration, which has brought peace of 70 years to the continent. But Wolfgang Schäuble is also a lawyer. Rules and agreements are holy to him. And those, who do not following them, must be punished. In the Greece crisis this matches pretty much exactly the mood of his countrymen – and draws the ire of many people in Europe. The past weekend was a disaster for European integration. Even though there was a kind of compromise at the end of the struggle over the question, if and under what conditions one wants to keep Greece in the eurozone. The negotiations revealed clearly as seldomly before the different notions of a common monetary union, allowing the states of Europe drifting ever further apart. Germany and some other smaller countries such as Finland, Slovakia and the Baltic states are on one side. They want an eurozone based mainly on hard rules, that make each member as competitive as possible. Schäuble is their spiritual leader. On the other side are most notably France and Italy, who see the eurozone as a joint project in which the states financially stand by each other. French president François Hollande has set himself at their top. Both sides face each other pretty irreconcilably. That it still came to an agreement on Monday morning was probably primarily because German Chancellor Angela Merkel did not want to open a complete rift with her partner France. "In the long run not capable of surviving" The conflict is not resolved so however. "The past weekend has shown that Germany and France have completely different ideas in which direction the monetary union should develop," says Henrik Enderlein. As director of the Jacques Delors Institute and Professor at the Hertie School of Governance in Berlin he studies intensively the point of views of the two largest countries on the Euro. His conclusion: "The way the monetary union is currently structured, it is not long-term viable." The problem for Enderlein and many other experts is the original compromise, establishing the monetary union without economic and political union as well. Even though by now both sides talk about 'deepening the union', they mean fundamentally different things. When Schäuble talks about a fiscal union, he thinks in particular of possibilities to control the budgets of all euro countries and ways to sanction violations of rules. Hollande, however, thinks of common budgets and joint liability, but he does not want to be interfered in his own domestic politics. This conflict runs through the short history of the monetary union. The first choice of direction Merkel already made with Schaeuble's predecessor Peer Steinbrück (SPD) in the financial crisis in 2008. At that time, as banks across Europe were begining to totter, Germany pushed through the doctrine, that each country in the euro area must save its own financial institutions. Everyone pays for himself alone. In 2010 Germany had to swallow the first real risk-sharing. As Greece could no longer pay its debts and countries like Portugal and Ireland came under pressure, the Chancellor and her Minister of Finance agreed to the establishment of a European Rescue Fund. No Eurobonds - "As long as I'm alive"Any further pooling of risks however were always successful rejected by the Federal Government of Germany. For a long time France and other countries called for European government bonds - so-called Eurobonds. In 2012 Merkel ended all discussion about them. There will be no collective liability said the Chancellor, "as long as I'm alive." A common European deposit guarantee for banks has also so far been successfully blocked by Germany. The dispute has now reached its zenith in the discussion about how to deal with Greece. Schäuble would have even prefered to kick the country out of the monetary union, because the new government in Athens no longer felt bound to the agreements that were made by their predecessors. In the end he prevailed in letting all the other euro area countries dictate the laws, which have to be passed by the Greek Parliament now. Expert Enderlein believes that this can not go on much longer. "Both sides need to move", the professor says. For a common monetary union France and other countries will have to bring themselves to give up more of their sovereignty than in the past and to submit to the rules of the community. Germany and its allies on the other hand will have to be ready for more risk-sharing. Currently it does not look like this conflict can be eased any time soon. Finance Minister Schäuble is eager to rebuild the eurozone, but according to his ideas. This crisis is an opportunity to repair the design flaws of the Euro, he said last week at a conference of the German Federal Bank. "A monetary union constructed like the current European Monetary Union is an open invitation for anyone who does not want to abide by the rules in the first place." I don't understand the French position: A united Europe with shared responsibility, but they are autonomous in their own domestic policy? Isn't that just screaming " moral hazard "? You know another institution that is plagued by moral hazard ? Social security - what the americans call health care. Yet it is more efficient than privatize and individualized health care. Sometime those microeconomic notions - like moral hazard or adverse selection - are not necessarily the best way to understand such a big thing. But I'm not necessarily for it, a united europe with shared responsibility will always be undemocratic and technocratic - people just don't want that right now.
Americans don't call that anything. Social Security is a program that pays you a "pension" based on , roughly, your salary during your life. Medicare, is Old-Age Healthcare, and if we don't reform it will make Greece's crisis look like a puddle next to a lake.
The point I was asking, that you didn't answer, is "How can you agree to bail out all EU countries, without imposing standards on them?"
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@zatic: I must say that is some very sensible poll options from German haha. I wish I learnt and speak German, I love practical people.
So what will happen after 3 years bailout?
Greece will very unlikely to perform up to an acceptable level of competency and we know austerity never works (to allow the country to 'come back up'). Grexit is inevitable (that EU would start to plan and prepare for that from this year on)? Or will Greece pull a miracle (fix their bad habit and shit from the past century)? Will US just buy Greece out?
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@zatic: sorry but that poll is rubbish; especially things related to:
Do you trust the Greek government to implement the reforms? Yes: 18% No: 78%.
i mean, how is the average german supposed to answer to that?. reforms, in that context, means everything Merkel says it's needed to be implemented and that's it; i doubt most of them know specifics related to those reforms.
i'd go even further and say that most, view the greeks as working 3h in the morning and 3 in the evening for 14E/h+ Show Spoiler +based on german posters in here
being pro or anti is based on believes not facts.
also, help/helping(in this context) means that what works/worked for us germans, should work for the greeks too!; that's just forced ideology showed down someone else's throat. i wouldn't call it helping.
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I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question.
This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece.
There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here.
So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers.
Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority.
+ Show Spoiler +
You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out.
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On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question. This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece. There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here. Show nested quote +So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out.
Getting out of your hat a 2012 poll to contradict one made in July 2015 posted by Zadic doesn't feel right. You can argue that at one point in time there was a gap, but you cannot use it to prove a point concerning the situation today.
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On July 17 2015 19:35 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question. This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece. There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here. So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out. Getting out of your hat a 2012 poll to contradict one made in July 2015 posted by Zadic doesn't feel right. You can argue that at one point in time there was a gap, but you cannot use it to prove a point concerning the situation today.
Is this recent enough ?
![[image loading]](https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2015-07-10/grexit3-3.png)
It's true that there is a decline of the public support for a Grexit in Germany, but the yes is still higher than the no :
![[image loading]](https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2015-07-10/grexit2-4.png)
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So things are heating up and Germany may finally come to a conclusion regarding a definitive debt restructuring for Greece;
Both ECB and IMF have no openly said that some kind of debt restructuring is required where as IMF won't even view the proposal as completed before some kind of debt restructuring for Greece has been agreed upon.
Germany still seems divided on the issue since a yes to the proposal now means that they have to agree on some kind of debt restructuring as well. Merkel has been open for the idea while Wolfgang Schäuble instead still promotes a temporary exit for Greece from EU and that any kind of debt restructuring would be illegal.
As a result of Wolfgang Schäubles hard stance Germanys is now being heavily criticized where members of IMF has gone as far to suggest that maybe its Germany that should leave the EU since they don't really care about the future of the union.
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On July 17 2015 19:44 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 19:35 Oshuy wrote:On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out. Getting out of your hat a 2012 poll to contradict one made in July 2015 posted by Zadic doesn't feel right. You can argue that at one point in time there was a gap, but you cannot use it to prove a point concerning the situation today. Is this recent enough ? It's true that there is a decline of the public support for a Grexit in Germany, but the yes is still higher than the no :
Much better. Now, the main question is the meaning of the difference between your poll and the one Zadic posted:
![[image loading]](http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/bilder/deutschlandtrend-extra-107~_v-videowebl.jpg)
Same question, same target, different results.
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On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question. This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece. There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here. Show nested quote +So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out.
Wow. Going back to Mitterand for a "political soul"... lol.
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On July 17 2015 20:27 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question. This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece. There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here. So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out. Wow. Going back to Mitterand for a "political soul"... lol.
Mitterand is the one who destroyed our politics, by putting ENArque in every ministry.
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like the stats tell.. the vast majority distrusts the Greece party, and so the money Greece receivs will be wasted, and only last for a short while, on the other hand many don't want the poor Greece people to suffer.
I am curious what happens, mostly I would prefer to see everyone go full nationalistic, that'ld be exciting. Or full transfer union, but then only a few people would profit and the majority end up dirt poor.. like always in comunism (and as you can see in Greece atm).
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On July 17 2015 20:29 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 20:27 Acrofales wrote:On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question. This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece. There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here. So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out. Wow. Going back to Mitterand for a "political soul"... lol. Mitterand is the one who destroyed our politics, by putting ENArque in every ministry.
Hmmm...
![[image loading]](http://referentiel.nouvelobs.com/file/13918726.jpg)
cevipof link on ENA in ministries
Agreed, ENA is a weird one and they are often portrayed as if they were in a world of their own. I'd go back to Giscard as the first head of state + Chirac as his prime minister to claim the ENA took power. Mitterand first years were a setback for them.
You may have the impression he put ENA in charge because more of them were close to him during his second term, but overall the proportion is ministries has been roughly the same since the 1960s with ~35%.
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On July 17 2015 21:05 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 20:29 WhiteDog wrote:On July 17 2015 20:27 Acrofales wrote:On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question. This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece. There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here. So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out. Wow. Going back to Mitterand for a "political soul"... lol. Mitterand is the one who destroyed our politics, by putting ENArque in every ministry. Hmmm... cevipof link on ENA in ministriesAgreed, ENA is a weird one and they are often portrayed as if they were in a world of their own. I'd go back to Giscard as the first head of state + Chirac as his prime minister to claim the ENA took power. Mitterand first years were a setback for them. You may have the impression he put ENA in charge because more of them were close to him during his second term, but overall the proportion is ministries has been roughly the same since the 1960s with ~35%.
De Gaule created the ENA, but didn't use them as Mitterand did. True I don't know much about Giscard. But Mauroy - Mitterand first prime minister - bragged about the fact that he put enarque in the highest places. He is the one who "introduced" all the people that rule the left in France today - François Hollande, Ségolène Royale, Dominique Schtrauss Kahn, Laurent Fabius, etc. He ruined our political system by putting technocrats in every places of power.
Those are the few people that, by themselves, tailored the complete change in economical policy in the 80ies and our modern economy - with a guy like Sapin, who is still our finance minister today (and who is also an ENArque).
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On July 17 2015 21:10 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 21:05 Oshuy wrote:On July 17 2015 20:29 WhiteDog wrote:On July 17 2015 20:27 Acrofales wrote:On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question. This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece. There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here. So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out. Wow. Going back to Mitterand for a "political soul"... lol. Mitterand is the one who destroyed our politics, by putting ENArque in every ministry. Hmmm... cevipof link on ENA in ministriesAgreed, ENA is a weird one and they are often portrayed as if they were in a world of their own. I'd go back to Giscard as the first head of state + Chirac as his prime minister to claim the ENA took power. Mitterand first years were a setback for them. You may have the impression he put ENA in charge because more of them were close to him during his second term, but overall the proportion is ministries has been roughly the same since the 1960s with ~35%. De Gaule created the ENA, but didn't use them as Mitterand did. True I don't know much about Giscard. But Mauroy - Mitterand first prime minister - bragged about the fact that he put enarque in the highest places. He is the one who "introduced" all the people that rule the left in France today - François Hollande, Ségolène Royale, Dominique Schtrauss Kahn, Laurent Fabius, etc. He ruined our political system by putting technocrats in every places of power. Those are the few people that, by themselves, tailored the complete change in economical policy in the 80ies - with a guy like Sapin, who is still our finance minister today (and who is also an ENArque).
I don't think technocrat is the word you're looking for, and I definitely don't think it's a bad word. I'd much rather have a government formed of people who actually studied and know what they're talking about than populist idiots (LePen springs to mind in France, but was thinking more of the disaster that was the LPF in Holland after Pim Fortuin was shot. Probably the most disastrously incompetent government the Netherlands had since the 2nd WW).
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On July 17 2015 21:19 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 21:10 WhiteDog wrote:On July 17 2015 21:05 Oshuy wrote:On July 17 2015 20:29 WhiteDog wrote:On July 17 2015 20:27 Acrofales wrote:On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question. This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece. There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here. So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out. Wow. Going back to Mitterand for a "political soul"... lol. Mitterand is the one who destroyed our politics, by putting ENArque in every ministry. Hmmm... cevipof link on ENA in ministriesAgreed, ENA is a weird one and they are often portrayed as if they were in a world of their own. I'd go back to Giscard as the first head of state + Chirac as his prime minister to claim the ENA took power. Mitterand first years were a setback for them. You may have the impression he put ENA in charge because more of them were close to him during his second term, but overall the proportion is ministries has been roughly the same since the 1960s with ~35%. De Gaule created the ENA, but didn't use them as Mitterand did. True I don't know much about Giscard. But Mauroy - Mitterand first prime minister - bragged about the fact that he put enarque in the highest places. He is the one who "introduced" all the people that rule the left in France today - François Hollande, Ségolène Royale, Dominique Schtrauss Kahn, Laurent Fabius, etc. He ruined our political system by putting technocrats in every places of power. Those are the few people that, by themselves, tailored the complete change in economical policy in the 80ies - with a guy like Sapin, who is still our finance minister today (and who is also an ENArque). I don't think technocrat is the word you're looking for, and I definitely don't think it's a bad word. I'd much rather have a government formed of people who actually studied and know what they're talking about than populist idiots (LePen springs to mind in France, but was thinking more of the disaster that was the LPF in Holland after Pim Fortuin was shot. Probably the most disastrously incompetent government the Netherlands had since the 2nd WW).
Technocrats give birth to Le Pen like political creature, because they play with society like it is a set of numbers and usually have preconceived ideas of what the future should be.
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On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question. This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece. There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here. Show nested quote +So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out.
and again you are dodging the issue.
You, quite literally, said the people in the more northern countries including germany want to punish greek people FOR THE SAKE OF punishing them. Maybe that's not what you intended to say and that's why you don't understand what people are getting at but it is what you said.
It's not about wether the "help" is actually helping. You said that people outside France and Italy aren't even willing to help which is an awful lot worse of a statement than saying "they want to help, but don't realize that what they think helps only makes things worse".
The latter is still bad of course but it's not being evil on purpose.
And you again, are dodging the issue instead of just straight up admitting that you went too far with your choice of words because you disagree with the approach, which is fine and nothing wrong with that. Again, he did not use a single word to try and argue about wether the "help" is actually helpful. He just pointed out that your one point about germans not wanting to help to begin with is flat out wrong.
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On July 17 2015 22:08 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 19:27 WhiteDog wrote:I know this doesn't fit with your desperate narrative of proving how superior France and Italy are over their Northern neighbors. But at least to everyone else here it's pretty clear that you are dead wrong on this question. This is the core of your problem tho. Impossible to accept a discussion or a critic without going back to your old bad habits of measuring who is "superior". I see plenty of problems with Italy and France (especially France, which is my country, and has lost its political soul in the last twenty years) - but those are not in question in regard to the situation in Greece. There is a reason why French have more confidence in Merkel than in Hollande to fix anything related to Europe - France politics is the worst. But it's irrelevant to the question at hand here. So, it appears that Germans really want to help Greeks, even though the vast majority doesn't believe the agreed upon reforms will be implemented. I don't see the desire to "punish" Greece anywhere in these numbers. Help is not the right word here - the kind of "help" you are talking about goes with "conditions" and is limited to whatever prevent Germany from losing its superiority. + Show Spoiler +You're right, there is no difference between the north and the south (The question is "should Greece stay in the eurozone ?") and the german want to help them so much they want them out. and again you are dodging the issue. You, quite literally, said the people in the more northern countries including germany want to punish greek people FOR THE SAKE OF punishing them. Maybe that's not what you intended to say and that's why you don't understand what people are getting at but it is what you said. It's not about wether the "help" is actually helping. You said that people outside France and Italy aren't even willing to help which is an awful lot worse of a statement than saying " they want to help, but don't realize that what they think helps only makes things worse". The latter is still bad of course but it's not being evil on purpose. And you again, are dodging the issue instead of just straight up admitting that you went too far with your choice of words because you disagree with the approach, which is fine and nothing wrong with that. Again, he did not use a single word to try and argue about wether the "help" is actually helpful. He just pointed out that your one point about germans not wanting to help to begin with is flat out wrong.
I didn't say for the sake of punishing them. The few polls you gave prove nothing at all - the questions are very open to interpretation. Meanwhile half europe sees Germany's behavior as an indication of a desire to punish them - it´s not my own personal ubris that lead me to this conclusion, but a rather well shared analysis - as the article about german anger suggested.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/01.jpg)
