EPTYou also have to keep in mind that the Bailout only exists so the French banking sector didn't implode. Of the 200+ Billion Euros spent in the last 5 years on this disaster, not much of it went to the Greek population. So starting to think you're being treated as a vassal state isn't illogical, and not the least bit illogical when you realize that joining the Euro was a catastrophic mistake in the first place for Greece.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 214
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
You also have to keep in mind that the Bailout only exists so the French banking sector didn't implode. Of the 200+ Billion Euros spent in the last 5 years on this disaster, not much of it went to the Greek population. So starting to think you're being treated as a vassal state isn't illogical, and not the least bit illogical when you realize that joining the Euro was a catastrophic mistake in the first place for Greece. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On July 17 2015 01:55 Nyxisto wrote: What is illogical is or unreasonable was thinking that there was a lot of wriggling room in European politics to make the changes Syriza promised while staying in the Eurozone. Syriza should have been honest from the start and announced that they're only going to be able to do what they want if Greece leaves the currency union, with all negative consequences that might bring. The best of both worlds promise that they gave was dishonest from the start. Not going to disagree there. But voting only allows you to choose between the options available. And Syriza was dead set on staying in the Euro. To the point that there hadn't been any discussion, with anyone important, for bringing back the Drachma. That also meant they simply didn't have the leverage to deal with the Troika, either. But Draghi forced the banking crisis, so they forced conformity on Syriza. After the next few years are bailed-in, Syriza will all but evaporate from the Greek Parliament. But the other parties will wait to blow it up. | ||
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Kenpark
Germany2350 Posts
On July 17 2015 01:55 Nyxisto wrote: What is illogical is or unreasonable was thinking that there was a lot of wriggling room in European politics to make the changes Syriza promised while staying in the Eurozone. Syriza should have been honest from the start and announced that they're only going to be able to do what they want if Greece leaves the currency union, with all negative consequences that might bring. The best of both worlds promise that they gave was dishonest from the start. Thank you, thats what I wanted to bring up this whole time. I did some research and found this hillarious quotes. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/25/greece-election-vote-austerity-leftwing-syriza-eu Tsipras, 40, will lead the first eurozone government to openly oppose bailout conditions imposed by the European Union and International Monetary Fund, seemingly setting Athens on a collision course with Brussels and particularly Berlin. The result had “made the Troika [the EU, IMF and European Central Bank] history,” he said. Made the troika history ? Your whole program depends from getting fresh money from the troika. Voters there said the poll felt like the most important in Greece’s recent history. “I just voted for the party that’s going to change Greece – in fact, the party that is going to change the whole of Europe,” said Panagiotis, 54, a self-employed electrician. Really alarming that nobody told them that this is/was an illusion. + Show Spoiler + “We will start with the things we can easily do, that we can afford, but will make a difference,” said Gabriel Sakellaridis, a young Syriza candidate in central Athens. “We don’t have a magic wand; people know that. But we can take simple steps to restore some social justice: raise the minimum wage and pension, abolish the most unfair new taxes.” I'm sorry but you basicaly cant afford anything without outside help. Last I checked minimum wage in Greece is still higher than median wage in Slovenia. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 16 2015 23:33 LegalLord wrote: Yeah, that's not really a good reason to blame the people. The general population does not and cannot assess the quality of leaders based on their campaign. Unless you've never voted for someone who turned out to be terrible for the nation, then I think that we just need to agree that electing representatives is a flawed system and we can't just put the blame entirely on those who elected them. Some of the many fascist leaders of the 20th century were elected. Khrushchev was elected. So was George W Bush. Each of these leaders made things worse for their country, and frankly I don't think that the blame rests entirely with the population that elected them because that's simply not how the system works in practice. While I agree with some of your sentiments, what you are arguing means that the social contract does not exist, governments are illegitimate, and the Greeks who don't want to have no obligation to pay taxes for pensions, the army, or the debt. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1151 Posts
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Kenpark
Germany2350 Posts
On July 17 2015 02:44 KT_Elwood wrote: Greece laborcosts and minimum wage (14€ per Hour) double those of poland . While it`s not as productive. Greece has accumulated a huge debt to pay for their current living standard. Nobody accepts any cutbacks on anything. All they want is a haircut for their debts, and new Billions from ECB. They did / do alot of stuff in Greece but 14 euro ? That cant be true. We have 8.5 euro in Germany. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18291 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
Or + Show Spoiler [picture] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Bs2stSU.png) Euro/month | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
Greece 684 € per month min wage for 2015 | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1151 Posts
But since we are discussing minimum wage, how come that an average greece pension is 25% higher than a german one, despite the people earning less money? Athens average pension paid was 980€, German 780€ ish | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On July 17 2015 04:03 KT_Elwood wrote: I was reffering to labourcost. But since we are discussing minimum wage, how come that an average greece pension is 25% higher than a german one, despite the people earning less money? Athens average pension paid was 980€, German 780€ ish because they don't have unemployment benefits and pensions from family members is a, granted very sketchy, system to give that minimum living standard you need to get food. | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
On July 17 2015 04:14 Toadesstern wrote: I think they do have unemployment benefits for one year. What they don't have is a basic social care. Which is something they were encouraged to introduce until 2014 by the troika even(!), because unlike pensions they have little right to demand cuts on basic living security. But an independent committee setting the minimum living standard is not what Greek parties want, they base entire election campaigns on lowering the cost of some commodity or special tax brakes for special groups, can't have some statistician ruin your whole political strategy.because they don't have unemployment benefits and pensions from family members is a, granted very sketchy, system to give that minimum living standard you need to get food. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22372 Posts
On July 17 2015 04:32 Integra wrote: Both ECB and IMF now wants debt restructuring for Greece and the only thing holding it back seems to be Germany; Wolfgang Schäuble wants Greece to take a temporary timeout and then return once it's gotten back on feet to continue pay off its debt. The biggest thing holding them back is a lack of faith in Greece to not abuse it by returning to their old ways. Once there is faith again in the Greek government it will happen. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
1. How is it the fault of ordinary citizen that their politicians and Goldman Sachs doctored some books 15 years ago? Why punish these bystanders now? Quick note about that : all countries basically cheated to get into the eurozone. Germany counted their reserve of gold as income for exemple. Numbers yeahh.... | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On July 17 2015 04:31 lord_nibbler wrote: I think they do have unemployment benefits for one year. What they don't have is a basic social care. Which is something they were encouraged to introduce until 2014 by the troika even(!), because unlike pensions they have little right to demand cuts on basic living security. But an independent committee setting the minimum living standard is not what Greek parties want, they base entire election campaigns on lowering the cost of some commodity or special tax brakes for special groups, can't have some statistician ruin your whole political strategy. yeah. Most critical point is that this whole pension thing seems to be pretty random... not like you, as someone who needs money, can influence wether or not your grandparents or whoever have money from pensions to support you so that money that's basicly meant for social security in general gets distribitued pretty randomly (I'd assume) | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
So I translated it for you.  Rule mania or debt community: How Germany and France split the eurozone By Stefan Kaiser The dispute over Greece revealed how different the visions for the eurozone are. Germany relies on rules and sanctions, France and others want above all a collective liability. Can this end well? Wolfgang Schäuble is a convinced Europeans. After all we know he believes in European integration, which has brought peace of 70 years to the continent. But Wolfgang Schäuble is also a lawyer. Rules and agreements are holy to him. And those, who do not following them, must be punished. In the Greece crisis this matches pretty much exactly the mood of his countrymen – and draws the ire of many people in Europe. The past weekend was a disaster for European integration. Even though there was a kind of compromise at the end of the struggle over the question, if and under what conditions one wants to keep Greece in the eurozone. The negotiations revealed clearly as seldomly before the different notions of a common monetary union, allowing the states of Europe drifting ever further apart. Germany and some other smaller countries such as Finland, Slovakia and the Baltic states are on one side. They want an eurozone based mainly on hard rules, that make each member as competitive as possible. Schäuble is their spiritual leader. On the other side are most notably France and Italy, who see the eurozone as a joint project in which the states financially stand by each other. French president François Hollande has set himself at their top. Both sides face each other pretty irreconcilably. That it still came to an agreement on Monday morning was probably primarily because German Chancellor Angela Merkel did not want to open a complete rift with her partner France. "In the long run not capable of surviving" The conflict is not resolved so however. "The past weekend has shown that Germany and France have completely different ideas in which direction the monetary union should develop," says Henrik Enderlein. As director of the Jacques Delors Institute and Professor at the Hertie School of Governance in Berlin he studies intensively the point of views of the two largest countries on the Euro. His conclusion: "The way the monetary union is currently structured, it is not long-term viable." The problem for Enderlein and many other experts is the original compromise, establishing the monetary union without economic and political union as well. Even though by now both sides talk about 'deepening the union', they mean fundamentally different things. When Schäuble talks about a fiscal union, he thinks in particular of possibilities to control the budgets of all euro countries and ways to sanction violations of rules. Hollande, however, thinks of common budgets and joint liability, but he does not want to be interfered in his own domestic politics. This conflict runs through the short history of the monetary union. The first choice of direction Merkel already made with Schaeuble's predecessor Peer Steinbrück (SPD) in the financial crisis in 2008. At that time, as banks across Europe were begining to totter, Germany pushed through the doctrine, that each country in the euro area must save its own financial institutions. Everyone pays for himself alone. In 2010 Germany had to swallow the first real risk-sharing. As Greece could no longer pay its debts and countries like Portugal and Ireland came under pressure, the Chancellor and her Minister of Finance agreed to the establishment of a European Rescue Fund. No Eurobonds - "As long as I'm alive" Any further pooling of risks however were always successful rejected by the Federal Government of Germany. For a long time France and other countries called for European government bonds - so-called Eurobonds. In 2012 Merkel ended all discussion about them. There will be no collective liability said the Chancellor, "as long as I'm alive." A common European deposit guarantee for banks has also so far been successfully blocked by Germany. The dispute has now reached its zenith in the discussion about how to deal with Greece. Schäuble would have even prefered to kick the country out of the monetary union, because the new government in Athens no longer felt bound to the agreements that were made by their predecessors. In the end he prevailed in letting all the other euro area countries dictate the laws, which have to be passed by the Greek Parliament now. Expert Enderlein believes that this can not go on much longer. "Both sides need to move", the professor says. For a common monetary union France and other countries will have to bring themselves to give up more of their sovereignty than in the past and to submit to the rules of the community. Germany and its allies on the other hand will have to be ready for more risk-sharing. Currently it does not look like this conflict can be eased any time soon. Finance Minister Schäuble is eager to rebuild the eurozone, but according to his ideas. This crisis is an opportunity to repair the design flaws of the Euro, he said last week at a conference of the German Federal Bank. "A monetary union constructed like the current European Monetary Union is an open invitation for anyone who does not want to abide by the rules in the first place." | ||
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