|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 16 2015 22:56 Toadesstern wrote:
varoufakis himself in an interview acknowledged (way back when he only started out as a FinMin) that he understood quite quickly that the word "debt relief" is a word german people don't like. In the same interview he said that Germany would be fine with extending maturities which defacto is the same thing as he went on to explain. Just a different way of going about it.
And he said that he'll refrain from using that word because according to him it's a taboo word in Germany while we'd be totally fine with rescheduling for some reason that isn't understandable to him.
That's probably part of the picture as well.
http://www.tagesschau.de/multimedia/video/video-60403.html
german site, english interview
|
On July 16 2015 22:53 graNite wrote:
1)is greece in any way being punished for faking the economic numbers that made it possible to enter the EU?
2)why exactly are they that angry at the european ministers, especially the german one? the whole situation is that bad because they lived beyond their means without paying taxes for too long. why does the whole eu, especially young greeks have to pay for this, why not the older generation that lived that way?
3)is the greek people acknowledging in any way that they have to blame themselves and the EU is just trying to help them? Wow that is simplistic.
1. How is it the fault of ordinary citizen that their politicians and Goldman Sachs doctored some books 15 years ago? Why punish these bystanders now?
2. The pensions and medical costs were cut enormously. Old people pay dearly currently (rich oligarch not so much).
3. Calling all what the EU has done 'helping' is pure propaganda! Self interest and neo-liberal 'reforms' can not be glossed over by a simple 'we only want to help you' line...
|
On July 16 2015 22:56 Toadesstern wrote:
varoufakis himself in an interview acknowledged (way back when he only started out as a FinMin) that he understood quite quickly that the word "debt relief" is a word german people don't like. In the same interview he said that Germany would be fine with extending maturities which defacto is the same thing as he went on to explain. Just a different way of going about it.
And he said that he'll refrain from using that word because according to him it's a taboo word in Germany while we'd be totally fine with rescheduling for some reason that isn't understandable to him. Well, the Greeks had their verboten words as well, aka 'the institutions' formally known as troika. 
|
On July 16 2015 23:04 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 22:53 graNite wrote:
1)is greece in any way being punished for faking the economic numbers that made it possible to enter the EU?
2)why exactly are they that angry at the european ministers, especially the german one? the whole situation is that bad because they lived beyond their means without paying taxes for too long. why does the whole eu, especially young greeks have to pay for this, why not the older generation that lived that way?
3)is the greek people acknowledging in any way that they have to blame themselves and the EU is just trying to help them? Wow that is simplistic. 1. How is it the fault of ordinary citizen that their politicians and Goldman Sachs doctored some books 15 years ago? Why punish these bystanders now? 2. The pensions and medical costs were cut enormously. Old people pay dearly currently (rich oligarch not so much). 3. Calling all what the EU has done 'helping' is pure propaganda! Self interest and neo-liberal 'reforms' can not be glossed over by a simple 'we only want to help you' line...
1) they elected these politicians
2) ok
3) of course its not only" we only want to help you", but at least they got money, right? without this 'help" (call it however you want) they wouldnt have had any money long time ago.
|
of course there would have to be rules for every country how to spend their money.
some of you claim we already have what i suggested, while others claim that my suggestion doesn't work, because everybody would just spend like crazy, since "the others are paying for it anyway", which is both kinda what's happening right now, in a rather chaotic fashion. why not get some control over that and make common fiscal policies? (that would probably need a new eu constitution)
i just brought this up to illustrate why we need further integration, if we want to keep the euro.
maartendq probably put it best, although i don't agree with the syriza bashing, greece was doing pretty bad before already and there was no better alternative to what the greeks voted, the last months were just a hint on the failed eu policy to combat the crisis.
|
On July 16 2015 23:08 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 23:04 lord_nibbler wrote:On July 16 2015 22:53 graNite wrote:
1)is greece in any way being punished for faking the economic numbers that made it possible to enter the EU?
2)why exactly are they that angry at the european ministers, especially the german one? the whole situation is that bad because they lived beyond their means without paying taxes for too long. why does the whole eu, especially young greeks have to pay for this, why not the older generation that lived that way?
3)is the greek people acknowledging in any way that they have to blame themselves and the EU is just trying to help them? Wow that is simplistic. 1. How is it the fault of ordinary citizen that their politicians and Goldman Sachs doctored some books 15 years ago? Why punish these bystanders now? 2. The pensions and medical costs were cut enormously. Old people pay dearly currently (rich oligarch not so much). 3. Calling all what the EU has done 'helping' is pure propaganda! Self interest and neo-liberal 'reforms' can not be glossed over by a simple 'we only want to help you' line... 1) they elected these politicians As a fellow German, how would you feel if we had a special tax just to pay back loans and reparations from our two world wars?
At what point (times past) do you acknowledge the 'it was not me' argument?
|
On July 16 2015 23:13 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 23:08 graNite wrote:On July 16 2015 23:04 lord_nibbler wrote:On July 16 2015 22:53 graNite wrote:
1)is greece in any way being punished for faking the economic numbers that made it possible to enter the EU?
2)why exactly are they that angry at the european ministers, especially the german one? the whole situation is that bad because they lived beyond their means without paying taxes for too long. why does the whole eu, especially young greeks have to pay for this, why not the older generation that lived that way?
3)is the greek people acknowledging in any way that they have to blame themselves and the EU is just trying to help them? Wow that is simplistic. 1. How is it the fault of ordinary citizen that their politicians and Goldman Sachs doctored some books 15 years ago? Why punish these bystanders now? 2. The pensions and medical costs were cut enormously. Old people pay dearly currently (rich oligarch not so much). 3. Calling all what the EU has done 'helping' is pure propaganda! Self interest and neo-liberal 'reforms' can not be glossed over by a simple 'we only want to help you' line... 1) they elected these politicians As a fellow German, how would you feel if we had a special tax just to pay back loans and reparations from our two world wars? At what point (times past) do you acknowledge the 'it was not me' argument?
when it happened in my time? i didnt elect the guy who started ww2, i couldnt do anything about it.
|
On July 16 2015 23:15 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 23:13 lord_nibbler wrote:On July 16 2015 23:08 graNite wrote:On July 16 2015 23:04 lord_nibbler wrote:On July 16 2015 22:53 graNite wrote:
1)is greece in any way being punished for faking the economic numbers that made it possible to enter the EU?
2)why exactly are they that angry at the european ministers, especially the german one? the whole situation is that bad because they lived beyond their means without paying taxes for too long. why does the whole eu, especially young greeks have to pay for this, why not the older generation that lived that way?
3)is the greek people acknowledging in any way that they have to blame themselves and the EU is just trying to help them? Wow that is simplistic. 1. How is it the fault of ordinary citizen that their politicians and Goldman Sachs doctored some books 15 years ago? Why punish these bystanders now? 2. The pensions and medical costs were cut enormously. Old people pay dearly currently (rich oligarch not so much). 3. Calling all what the EU has done 'helping' is pure propaganda! Self interest and neo-liberal 'reforms' can not be glossed over by a simple 'we only want to help you' line... 1) they elected these politicians As a fellow German, how would you feel if we had a special tax just to pay back loans and reparations from our two world wars? At what point (times past) do you acknowledge the 'it was not me' argument? when it happened in my time? i didnt elect the guy who started ww2, i couldnt do anything about it. There are a lot of Greeks around, that could not vote 15 years ago. And there are also still some Germans around, who did vote for the ww2 guy. Just sayin...
|
Yeah no. This definitively should not be about "punishment". That is just juvenile.
What it should be about is figuring out a way to fix this mess. If there are disagreements in how to achieve that, or who to priorize, that is reasonable. But punishment is not productive in any way.
|
On July 16 2015 23:08 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 23:04 lord_nibbler wrote:On July 16 2015 22:53 graNite wrote:
1)is greece in any way being punished for faking the economic numbers that made it possible to enter the EU?
2)why exactly are they that angry at the european ministers, especially the german one? the whole situation is that bad because they lived beyond their means without paying taxes for too long. why does the whole eu, especially young greeks have to pay for this, why not the older generation that lived that way?
3)is the greek people acknowledging in any way that they have to blame themselves and the EU is just trying to help them? Wow that is simplistic. 1. How is it the fault of ordinary citizen that their politicians and Goldman Sachs doctored some books 15 years ago? Why punish these bystanders now? 2. The pensions and medical costs were cut enormously. Old people pay dearly currently (rich oligarch not so much). 3. Calling all what the EU has done 'helping' is pure propaganda! Self interest and neo-liberal 'reforms' can not be glossed over by a simple 'we only want to help you' line... 1) they elected these politicians
Yeah, that's not really a good reason to blame the people. The general population does not and cannot assess the quality of leaders based on their campaign. Unless you've never voted for someone who turned out to be terrible for the nation, then I think that we just need to agree that electing representatives is a flawed system and we can't just put the blame entirely on those who elected them.
Some of the many fascist leaders of the 20th century were elected. Khrushchev was elected. So was George W Bush. Each of these leaders made things worse for their country, and frankly I don't think that the blame rests entirely with the population that elected them because that's simply not how the system works in practice.
|
ok, so only the politicians would be to blame? but they cant pay for the crisis themselves... that was the point i was getting to. who is there to blame ? who has to pay the price? in the best case scenario, it would be the same group.
|
On July 16 2015 23:33 LegalLord wrote:
Some of the many fascist leaders of the 20th century were elected. Khrushchev was elected. So was George W Bush. Each of these leaders made things worse for their country, and frankly I don't think that the blame rests entirely with the population that elected them because that's simply not how the system works in practice. Well, not within our system, but when it is 'them', then suddenly it does work exactly like that.
Iran's population gets dragged into harsh sanctions because we don't like their leaders (even though the population can not even change their leadership, because they are being repressed).
Or how about millions of Iraqis that had to die because (officially) 'we' did not like their dictator.
If everybody would be holden responsible for the actions of their government, US citizens would be labeled as war mongering, torturing outlaws and be strictly forbidden from ever owing an army again...
That is the sad fact of human nature, morality and norms are different for oneself then for others.
It should not be so, but it takes a lot of will power, self-examination and intelligence to not become hypocritical over time.
|
Dont know about others but I do think the Greece are to blame for voting Syriza in. That just shows to better not put any important decisions on the Greece again. Wtf were they thinking ? Oh ye we got this ultra cool oec professor who is riding a motorcycle. He is gonna tell these idiots how to run europe.
Either Grexit or bring in germans to collect taxes, french to make the laws etc.
They are just not able themselves.
|
On July 16 2015 23:47 graNite wrote:
ok, so only the politicians would be to blame? but they cant pay for the crisis themselves... that was the point i was getting to. who is there to blame ? who has to pay the price? in the best case scenario, it would be the same group.
When you figure out something that works like that, go ahead and tell us. The entire world would like to know what would work out that well.
In the meantime, we should probably just agree that an entire nation can't be liable for the mistakes of its leaders.
On July 16 2015 23:57 Kenpark wrote:
Dont know about others but I do think the Greece are to blame for voting Syriza in. That just shows to better not put any important decisions on the Greece again. Wtf were they thinking ? Oh ye we got this ultra cool oec professor who is riding a motorcycle. He is gonna tell these idiots how to run europe.
They were thinking that they got screwed over and that they didn't want to capitulate to the demands of creditors who often behave in a very shark-like manner. A pretty reasonable opinion if you think about it.
|
On July 16 2015 23:57 Kenpark wrote:
Dont know about others but I do think the Greece are to blame for voting Syriza in. That just shows to better not put any important decisions on the Greece again. Wtf were they thinking ? Oh ye we got this ultra cool oec professor who is riding a motorcycle. He is gonna tell these idiots how to run europe.
Either Grexit or bring in germans to collect taxes, french to make the laws etc.
They are just not able themselves.
What the fuck did I just read... what ...
I am speechless.
People like you are dangerous to society.
I guess that by your own logic we shouldn't have let germany unify. I am sure that there are a bunch of sick people with the same sick mentality you have thinking about it right now.
|
On July 17 2015 00:03 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 23:57 Kenpark wrote:
Dont know about others but I do think the Greece are to blame for voting Syriza in. That just shows to better not put any important decisions on the Greece again. Wtf were they thinking ? Oh ye we got this ultra cool oec professor who is riding a motorcycle. He is gonna tell these idiots how to run europe.
Either Grexit or bring in germans to collect taxes, french to make the laws etc.
They are just not able themselves.
What the fuck did I just read... what ... I am speechless. People like you are dangerous to society. I guess that by your own logic we shouldn't have let germany unify. I am sure that there are a bunch of sick people with the same sick mentality you have thinking about it right now.
His statement is very much the definition of throwing rocks in a glass house.
|
On July 17 2015 00:03 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 23:57 Kenpark wrote:
Dont know about others but I do think the Greece are to blame for voting Syriza in. That just shows to better not put any important decisions on the Greece again. Wtf were they thinking ? Oh ye we got this ultra cool oec professor who is riding a motorcycle. He is gonna tell these idiots how to run europe.
Either Grexit or bring in germans to collect taxes, french to make the laws etc.
They are just not able themselves.
What the fuck did I just read... what ... I am speechless. People like you are dangerous to society. I guess that by your own logic we shouldn't have let germany unify. I am sure that there are a bunch of sick people with the same sick mentality you have thinking about it right now.
You got a report for this. How am I dangerous to the society ?
Schäuble himself offered help collecting taxes. What so wrong about helping a country, when they cant do it themselves ? Its not like this problem came over night. This is a problem for years and they werent able to solve it. Corruption is another topic. Their administration just doesnt work on the same standards as other countries.
Better help at the source than spending hard earned tax money over years.
|
On July 17 2015 00:23 Kenpark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 00:03 BlitzerSC wrote:On July 16 2015 23:57 Kenpark wrote:
Dont know about others but I do think the Greece are to blame for voting Syriza in. That just shows to better not put any important decisions on the Greece again. Wtf were they thinking ? Oh ye we got this ultra cool oec professor who is riding a motorcycle. He is gonna tell these idiots how to run europe.
Either Grexit or bring in germans to collect taxes, french to make the laws etc.
They are just not able themselves.
What the fuck did I just read... what ... I am speechless. People like you are dangerous to society. I guess that by your own logic we shouldn't have let germany unify. I am sure that there are a bunch of sick people with the same sick mentality you have thinking about it right now. You got a report for this. How am I dangerous to the society ? Schäuble himself offered help collecting taxes. What so wrong about helping a country, when they cant do it themselves ? Its not like this problem came over night. This is a problem for years and they werent able to solve it. Corruption is another topic. Their administration just doesnt work on the same standards as other countries. Better help at the source than spending hard earned tax money over years.
And the back pedaling beings. "I was only talking about helping them. Whats the problem? Please ignore the part where I said they couldn't make important decisions for themselves." I can think of worse decisions on who to vote for made during a time of economic crisis.
|
On July 17 2015 00:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 00:23 Kenpark wrote:On July 17 2015 00:03 BlitzerSC wrote:On July 16 2015 23:57 Kenpark wrote:
Dont know about others but I do think the Greece are to blame for voting Syriza in. That just shows to better not put any important decisions on the Greece again. Wtf were they thinking ? Oh ye we got this ultra cool oec professor who is riding a motorcycle. He is gonna tell these idiots how to run europe.
Either Grexit or bring in germans to collect taxes, french to make the laws etc.
They are just not able themselves.
What the fuck did I just read... what ... I am speechless. People like you are dangerous to society. I guess that by your own logic we shouldn't have let germany unify. I am sure that there are a bunch of sick people with the same sick mentality you have thinking about it right now. You got a report for this. How am I dangerous to the society ? Schäuble himself offered help collecting taxes. What so wrong about helping a country, when they cant do it themselves ? Its not like this problem came over night. This is a problem for years and they werent able to solve it. Corruption is another topic. Their administration just doesnt work on the same standards as other countries. Better help at the source than spending hard earned tax money over years. And the back pedaling beings. "I was only talking about helping them. Whats the problem? Please ignore the part where I said they couldn't make important decisions for themselves." I can think of worse decisions on who to vote for made during a time of economic crisis.
Reading it again, I worded it in a weird way. Ofc I'm not suggesting that Greece should never vote for their parliament again. Just that them voting Syriza in, is a alarming sign. Maybe they were heavy manipulated, not informed or sth.
But there is no doubt that Syriza only escalated and worsen the situation in Greece. And that was pretty obvious.
|
Syriza just took the shit and threw it in the fan earlier than previously estimated by yours truly - IMF/ECB/and so on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
