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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
Why is Germany so angry?
My opinion on this article: Many Germans feel they (their government) have done nothing wrong. They've paid the tab for all of Europe, tried their best to help Greece, but Greece has failed because they have pissed away German money with their laziness and incompetence. The only reward Germany has had for their sincere efforts to help is to get sand kicked in their face, attacked and criticized relentlessly from ungrateful Greeks and from all quarters around the world (by foreigners who know nothing of this situation!) So now Germans/north Europeans are angry. Those ungrateful bastards! They've taken our money then spat in our face. Well now they can get fucked!
I have great sympathy for the German (and northern European) viewpoint. They've spent and lost a lot of money. They've sincerely tried to help and be good Europeans. The only problem with this narrative is it ignores the German, and European role, in this crisis. The 2010 and 2012 bailouts were designed by Germany and the troika. It failed not because Greeks are lazy or stupid but because it was an impossible economic program. The austerity economic policy Greece was forced to accept was doomed to fail without massive debt restructuring which Germany and the troika made the mistake of refusing to consider at the time. The IMF has since admitted it made a mistake...but the German government has not. It continues to insist the failure of the austerity policy was all Greece's fault, rather than their own. And of course, the well-liked, trusted Merkel government is believed by Germans over the words of other foreigners...even when it is wrong.
Far from improving the situation, the German austerity program made things worse. And that is why Greece is in the position it is today. When the German austerity program began, Greek debts were around 130% GDP. Now they are 180%. The Greek economy has shrunk by 25%. That is what failure looks like. OK but you retort, the Greek economy has failed because they've failed to implement reforms. Wrong. a) Greece has actually already implemented many reforms. And b) this now gets into the zone of economics. Germany and the troika badly underestimated the damage that drastically slashing spending (austerity) would deal to the Greek economy. In economics terms, the multiplier was higher than Germany believed at the time. Here is an explanation of what happened in economics terms. The IMF has since admitted it made a mistake about this too. Not Germany. Combining this with a fixed exchange rate and no ability to devalue to regain competitiveness along with a tight monetary policy out of Greece's control, and the German austerity program was doomed from the beginning. This is a problem that many economists warned would happen at the time. This is not a surprise to most economists. Germany and the troika went against mainstream economic thinking in saying that an austerity program would succeed in Greece. They were wrong. And now this situation has become a disaster.
The Greek economy was already a disaster before the Germans came along. Greeks are responsible for this, their politicians, bankers, corrupt businessmen. But the German/troika bailouts have not helped, they've only made things worse. Greeks are suffering badly. They've lost their incomes, their pensions, their jobs, their businesses and their livelihoods. Many Greeks, who have worked hard their whole life, have lost all their money and can barely find food to survive. And they are correct to identify that the German austerity policy is partially to blame for this situation. And when Germany keeps on coming back and saying more austerity is needed despite its now obvious failure... you can see how the Greeks have gotten frustrated. In this situation, as you watch your country burn, you would need to be a robot to stay calm and not get frustrated and angry. Unfortunately this rhetoric has been damaging, counterproductive, and has gone too far, with the Greeks comparing the Germans with the Nazis, etc, which has now enraged the Germans, as I referred to earlier.
So what is needed now? I think the most important thing is what Merkel said: trust. Calling the Greeks all matter of names is not helping resolve the situation, nor is it truthful to say that this mess is all the Greek's fault. And the same for the other side, Greeks are suffering and frustrated but it has not helped their cause to call Germans Nazis or call for boycotts. Germans need to accept that they have also made mistakes and gotten it wrong. The German austerity program was a mistake and an expensive failure.
To solve this crisis, Greeks and Germans will have to hold hands. This debate has become emotional rather than rational, and is making it impossible to find the correct solutions to an incredibly difficult problem. Ultimately, there can be no EU if it is always about "us" and "them." If there is to be an EU in the future, Germans, Greeks etc will need to think of each other as "us": Europeans.
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I see you are still refusing to learn anything new and keep to your fixed opinion regardless of what people tell you. 
The first three paragraphs are full of mistakes and false assumptions, but I give up on correcting them...
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The article linked by Evil_Sheep is spot on : "France and Italy have both made huge loans to Greece, but neither country has expressed hostility to Greece. Why is Germany so angry?".
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Because the French and Italian leaders have no balls and hide behind Merkel.
And if your ally in being "nice and bending/not following rules" is Italy.. Well, there is a reason people make fun of Italy since... WW2 ended?
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It is you guys who are saying they are angry!
I have not seen or red a single interview with Merkel or Schäuble where they not appeared very calm.
Also, what kind of view on politics is this, where personal emotions are attributed to a whole country and are apparently the basis of its actual diplomacy? Like seriously? Some politician feels anger so he takes it out on another countries citizen, really?
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On July 17 2015 08:57 Velr wrote:
Because the French and Italian leaders have no balls and hide behind Merkel.
And if your ally in being "nice and bending/not following rules" is Italy.. Well, there is a reason people make fun of Italy since... WW2 ended?
It's not a question of leader, but of public opinion : most french and italian just want to help Greece, as shown in many pools (some posted even in this thread). Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek.
Most of the people in here don't even want to see reality as it is, as I've been posting fact non stop about this shitstorm and am still seeing the same ignorant argument (like Syriza created this situation...). When you point out that austerity have failed, but that Greece have been doing everything asked from them for the last five years, you still have people that respond to you that the Greek are responsible because they didn't do what they should have...
Rationality has long lost this train and to me there is indeed some kind of repressed anger.
And international politics is not rules, it's about compromise, it's about finding the best solution possible in an imperfect world, making sure everybody leave at least with its dignity intact. Deep down my belief is that Germans understand full well that the euro have benefitted them for the last ten years, that their economic strategy (around exports) is only possible thanks to the debts of their "partners" and they refuse to accept that this blessing from the heaven could end.
And your comment about Italy is dumb. It's a great country and a great civilization ; and Italian woman are just the best. I would bend all my rules for Italy too. 
I have not seen or red a single interview with Merkel or Schäuble where they not appeared very calm.
You've not heard about Schauble shouting at Draghi already ?
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I think it's just that Germans are much less forgiving as a culture. Also, Italy knows that this issue could come back to them next time they have debt issues.
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On July 17 2015 09:15 LegalLord wrote:
I think it's just that Germans are much less forgiving as a culture. Also, Italy knows that this issue could come back to them next time they have debt issues.
And France ? France last default is 1840. Even the Front National, who are adamant on the fact that paying a debt is the "duty" and the "honor" of a country, are asking for debt relief regarding Greece. Meanwhile Germany is the worst payer of the XXth century.
No cearly, this is not about the debt.
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On July 17 2015 09:06 WhiteDog wrote:
It's not a question of leader, but of public opinion : most french and italian just want to help Greece, as shown in many pools (some posted even in this thread). Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek. 1. It was one very shallow guy in this thread, but sure lumps us all into one hater group.
2. Yes, French press feeds its readership with other facts and opinions than German press. No wonder general public has different world views.
3. There is always selfish interest behind every opinion. French can't for example criticize Greeks ability to keep a balanced budget too much, because that is their weak point as well.
When you point out that austerity have failed... First you have to define exactly what you mean by 'austerity'. Then you have to define the goals, you wanted to achieve. Only after that, can you make an assessment if it worked.
You are making wild assumptions and than declare the results as hard facts. But it still remains just your personal opinion nothing more.
... but that Greece have been doing everything asked from them for the last five years, ... That again is only your personal opinion, not shared by many people on this planet. It is not a fact!
...you still have people that respond to you that the Greek are responsible because they didn't do what they should have... 5 years on the core problems are still not tackled. That is a true fact! Whether they followed certain plans or not, is not even relevant. The tax evasion, the inequality, the clientelism, it is all still there.
Sympathy for Greek's struggle until now does not alter the reality on the ground.
Rationality has long lost this train and to me there is indeed some kind of repressed anger. Yea right, because the people don't change their opinions to match yours, they must all be emotionally too weak to think clear. Great explanation and so not narcissistic.
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1. It was one very shallow guy in this thread, but sure lumps us all into one hater group.
2. Yes, French press feeds its readership with other facts and opinions than German press. No wonder general public has different world views.
3. There is always selfish interest behind every opinion. French can't for example criticize Greeks ability to keep a balanced budget too much, because that is their weak point as well.
1. It's just the truth.
2. False, the entirety of the press is pro "europe" to the bone, but nobody trust them. Aside from a few newspapers, nobody wanted to defend the Greek, and many observers had nothing but mean comment about Tsipras.
3. You can say that about ALL european countries except some western countries like Poland maybe. I'm not sure you've yet understood, but almost no european countries respect the objectives of 60 % debt GDP ratio. We, the french, are just not respecting the 3 % deficit, which was not respected by germany for the entire time it was in the euro zone aside from some years (after the crisis lolz). And France paid all their debt in the XXth century, despite two wars - we're far from Greece.
First you have to define exactly what you mean by 'austerity'. Then you have to define the goals, you wanted to achieve. Only after that, can you make an assessment if it worked.
You need to reflect on that answer.
You are making wild assumptions but than declare the results as hard facts. But it still remains just your personal opinion nothing more.
Their GDP dropped by 25 % ? They have 30 % unemployment ? Sharp and significant increase in suicide ? Appearance of old and forgotten disease like Malaria ? Brain drain ? Loss in living conditions ? You think it's a success ? How is that personal opinion ? lol
That is your personal opinion, not shared by many people on this planet. It is not a fact!
Yes it's a fact that Greece did what was wanted from them in the last bail out... How is that not a fact and a matter of opinion ?
Yea right, because the people don't change their opinions to match yours, they must all be emotionally too weak to think clear. Great explanation and so not narcissistic.
That's basically the opinion of the entire world aside from the northern europe.
5 years on the core problems are still not tackled. That is a true fact! Whether they followed certain plans or not, is not even relevant. The tax evasion, the inequality, the clientelism, it is all still there.
Sympathy for Greek's struggle until now does not alter the reality on the ground.
Make me laugh. Tell me when the eurogroup asked for Greece to reduce tax evasion, inequality, clientelism ? They made everything they could to increase tax and help Greece collect tax, but never did anything to prevent German and French banks from quietly welcoming Greek money. How is selling 50 billions of public assets will actually help the Greek facing their problem of clientelism ? Rationality again is nowhere.
Especially inequality : when you ask for an increase in value added taxes - as the eurogroup demanded - you increase inequalities. It's a well known fact.
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On July 17 2015 07:03 lord_nibbler wrote:I liked this small article (in German) in the Spiegel giving some inside on the different viewpoints of Germany and France. So I translated it for you.
Rule mania or debt community: How Germany and France split the eurozoneBy Stefan Kaiser The dispute over Greece revealed how different the visions for the eurozone are. Germany relies on rules and sanctions, France and others want above all a collective liability. Can this end well?Wolfgang Schäuble is a convinced Europeans. After all we know he believes in European integration, which has brought peace of 70 years to the continent. But Wolfgang Schäuble is also a lawyer. Rules and agreements are holy to him. And those, who do not following them, must be punished. In the Greece crisis this matches pretty much exactly the mood of his countrymen – and draws the ire of many people in Europe. The past weekend was a disaster for European integration. Even though there was a kind of compromise at the end of the struggle over the question, if and under what conditions one wants to keep Greece in the eurozone. The negotiations revealed clearly as seldomly before the different notions of a common monetary union, allowing the states of Europe drifting ever further apart. Germany and some other smaller countries such as Finland, Slovakia and the Baltic states are on one side. They want an eurozone based mainly on hard rules, that make each member as competitive as possible. Schäuble is their spiritual leader. On the other side are most notably France and Italy, who see the eurozone as a joint project in which the states financially stand by each other. French president François Hollande has set himself at their top. Both sides face each other pretty irreconcilably. That it still came to an agreement on Monday morning was probably primarily because German Chancellor Angela Merkel did not want to open a complete rift with her partner France. "In the long run not capable of surviving" The conflict is not resolved so however. "The past weekend has shown that Germany and France have completely different ideas in which direction the monetary union should develop," says Henrik Enderlein. As director of the Jacques Delors Institute and Professor at the Hertie School of Governance in Berlin he studies intensively the point of views of the two largest countries on the Euro. His conclusion: "The way the monetary union is currently structured, it is not long-term viable." The problem for Enderlein and many other experts is the original compromise, establishing the monetary union without economic and political union as well. Even though by now both sides talk about 'deepening the union', they mean fundamentally different things. When Schäuble talks about a fiscal union, he thinks in particular of possibilities to control the budgets of all euro countries and ways to sanction violations of rules. Hollande, however, thinks of common budgets and joint liability, but he does not want to be interfered in his own domestic politics. This conflict runs through the short history of the monetary union. The first choice of direction Merkel already made with Schaeuble's predecessor Peer Steinbrück (SPD) in the financial crisis in 2008. At that time, as banks across Europe were begining to totter, Germany pushed through the doctrine, that each country in the euro area must save its own financial institutions. Everyone pays for himself alone. In 2010 Germany had to swallow the first real risk-sharing. As Greece could no longer pay its debts and countries like Portugal and Ireland came under pressure, the Chancellor and her Minister of Finance agreed to the establishment of a European Rescue Fund. No Eurobonds - "As long as I'm alive"Any further pooling of risks however were always successful rejected by the Federal Government of Germany. For a long time France and other countries called for European government bonds - so-called Eurobonds. In 2012 Merkel ended all discussion about them. There will be no collective liability said the Chancellor, "as long as I'm alive." A common European deposit guarantee for banks has also so far been successfully blocked by Germany. The dispute has now reached its zenith in the discussion about how to deal with Greece. Schäuble would have even prefered to kick the country out of the monetary union, because the new government in Athens no longer felt bound to the agreements that were made by their predecessors. In the end he prevailed in letting all the other euro area countries dictate the laws, which have to be passed by the Greek Parliament now. Expert Enderlein believes that this can not go on much longer. "Both sides need to move", the professor says. For a common monetary union France and other countries will have to bring themselves to give up more of their sovereignty than in the past and to submit to the rules of the community. Germany and its allies on the other hand will have to be ready for more risk-sharing. Currently it does not look like this conflict can be eased any time soon. Finance Minister Schäuble is eager to rebuild the eurozone, but according to his ideas. This crisis is an opportunity to repair the design flaws of the Euro, he said last week at a conference of the German Federal Bank. "A monetary union constructed like the current European Monetary Union is an open invitation for anyone who does not want to abide by the rules in the first place."
I don't understand the French position: A united Europe with shared responsibility, but they are autonomous in their own domestic policy? Isn't that just screaming " moral hazard "?
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Zurich15366 Posts
On July 17 2015 09:06 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 08:57 Velr wrote:
Because the French and Italian leaders have no balls and hide behind Merkel.
And if your ally in being "nice and bending/not following rules" is Italy.. Well, there is a reason people make fun of Italy since... WW2 ended?
It's not a question of leader, but of public opinion : most french and italian just want to help Greece, as shown in many pools (some posted even in this thread). Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek.
As do a majority of Germans, even as of today (Source, German).
I have a very different reading of the opinions in this thread. They are fairly balanced.
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On July 17 2015 15:06 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 09:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 17 2015 08:57 Velr wrote:
Because the French and Italian leaders have no balls and hide behind Merkel.
And if your ally in being "nice and bending/not following rules" is Italy.. Well, there is a reason people make fun of Italy since... WW2 ended?
It's not a question of leader, but of public opinion : most french and italian just want to help Greece, as shown in many pools (some posted even in this thread). Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek. As do a majority of Germans, even as of today ( Source, German). I have a very different reading of the opinions in this thread. They are fairly balanced.
This was linked a few pages ago :
![[image loading]](http://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/7/10/1436539338837/6510f0f5-210e-49e5-bb5e-2b6704ef4aa5-bestSizeAvailable.png?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=80fc56f650486ee7d4f3635c045a9f27)
On July 17 2015 10:36 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 07:03 lord_nibbler wrote:I liked this small article (in German) in the Spiegel giving some inside on the different viewpoints of Germany and France. So I translated it for you.
Rule mania or debt community: How Germany and France split the eurozoneBy Stefan Kaiser The dispute over Greece revealed how different the visions for the eurozone are. Germany relies on rules and sanctions, France and others want above all a collective liability. Can this end well?Wolfgang Schäuble is a convinced Europeans. After all we know he believes in European integration, which has brought peace of 70 years to the continent. But Wolfgang Schäuble is also a lawyer. Rules and agreements are holy to him. And those, who do not following them, must be punished. In the Greece crisis this matches pretty much exactly the mood of his countrymen – and draws the ire of many people in Europe. The past weekend was a disaster for European integration. Even though there was a kind of compromise at the end of the struggle over the question, if and under what conditions one wants to keep Greece in the eurozone. The negotiations revealed clearly as seldomly before the different notions of a common monetary union, allowing the states of Europe drifting ever further apart. Germany and some other smaller countries such as Finland, Slovakia and the Baltic states are on one side. They want an eurozone based mainly on hard rules, that make each member as competitive as possible. Schäuble is their spiritual leader. On the other side are most notably France and Italy, who see the eurozone as a joint project in which the states financially stand by each other. French president François Hollande has set himself at their top. Both sides face each other pretty irreconcilably. That it still came to an agreement on Monday morning was probably primarily because German Chancellor Angela Merkel did not want to open a complete rift with her partner France. "In the long run not capable of surviving" The conflict is not resolved so however. "The past weekend has shown that Germany and France have completely different ideas in which direction the monetary union should develop," says Henrik Enderlein. As director of the Jacques Delors Institute and Professor at the Hertie School of Governance in Berlin he studies intensively the point of views of the two largest countries on the Euro. His conclusion: "The way the monetary union is currently structured, it is not long-term viable." The problem for Enderlein and many other experts is the original compromise, establishing the monetary union without economic and political union as well. Even though by now both sides talk about 'deepening the union', they mean fundamentally different things. When Schäuble talks about a fiscal union, he thinks in particular of possibilities to control the budgets of all euro countries and ways to sanction violations of rules. Hollande, however, thinks of common budgets and joint liability, but he does not want to be interfered in his own domestic politics. This conflict runs through the short history of the monetary union. The first choice of direction Merkel already made with Schaeuble's predecessor Peer Steinbrück (SPD) in the financial crisis in 2008. At that time, as banks across Europe were begining to totter, Germany pushed through the doctrine, that each country in the euro area must save its own financial institutions. Everyone pays for himself alone. In 2010 Germany had to swallow the first real risk-sharing. As Greece could no longer pay its debts and countries like Portugal and Ireland came under pressure, the Chancellor and her Minister of Finance agreed to the establishment of a European Rescue Fund. No Eurobonds - "As long as I'm alive"Any further pooling of risks however were always successful rejected by the Federal Government of Germany. For a long time France and other countries called for European government bonds - so-called Eurobonds. In 2012 Merkel ended all discussion about them. There will be no collective liability said the Chancellor, "as long as I'm alive." A common European deposit guarantee for banks has also so far been successfully blocked by Germany. The dispute has now reached its zenith in the discussion about how to deal with Greece. Schäuble would have even prefered to kick the country out of the monetary union, because the new government in Athens no longer felt bound to the agreements that were made by their predecessors. In the end he prevailed in letting all the other euro area countries dictate the laws, which have to be passed by the Greek Parliament now. Expert Enderlein believes that this can not go on much longer. "Both sides need to move", the professor says. For a common monetary union France and other countries will have to bring themselves to give up more of their sovereignty than in the past and to submit to the rules of the community. Germany and its allies on the other hand will have to be ready for more risk-sharing. Currently it does not look like this conflict can be eased any time soon. Finance Minister Schäuble is eager to rebuild the eurozone, but according to his ideas. This crisis is an opportunity to repair the design flaws of the Euro, he said last week at a conference of the German Federal Bank. "A monetary union constructed like the current European Monetary Union is an open invitation for anyone who does not want to abide by the rules in the first place." I don't understand the French position: A united Europe with shared responsibility, but they are autonomous in their own domestic policy? Isn't that just screaming " moral hazard "?
You know another institution that is plagued by moral hazard ? Social security - what the americans call health care. Yet it is more efficient than privatize and individualized health care. Sometime those microeconomic notions - like moral hazard or adverse selection - are not necessarily the best way to understand such a big thing.
But I'm not necessarily for it, a united europe with shared responsibility will always be undemocratic and technocratic - people just don't want that right now.
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Uhm.. That Graph doesn't even fit the post you are responding to? Not even slightly.
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On July 17 2015 17:07 Velr wrote:
Uhm.. That Graph doesn't even fit the post you are responding to? Not even slightly.
Are you sure ? The pool linked by zatic is also more criticable, as financing Greece with new loans is not necessarily a way of helping out a country in debt.
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The graph is about who peoples blame and you somehow transform that into which peoples wants to help.
These are two totally diffrent things?
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On July 17 2015 17:12 Velr wrote:
The graph is about who peoples blame and you somehow transform that into which peoples wants to help.
These are two totally diffrent things?
Yeah because finding someone guilty or innocent of a reaity is not relevant to weither we punish or not that someone.
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On July 17 2015 17:14 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 17:12 Velr wrote:
The graph is about who peoples blame and you somehow transform that into which peoples wants to help.
These are two totally diffrent things? Yeah because finding someone guilty or innocent of a behavior is not relevant to weither we punish or not that someone.
that's not what the response was though.
you: "unlike german people, french and italians want to help greece!"
zatic: "german people want to help too... *looky*"
and now you changed it to "punish" to fit your idea, which is the other side of the spectrum. And no, responsibility doesn't really have a lot to do with wether or not we want to/ need to help. If you get drunk all by yourself and stumble on the highway I'd still make sure you don't kill yourself.
Not in anyway whatsoever supposed to be an analogy to the situation, just shows that you being responsible has very little to do with willingness to help somone if shit is serious and it is if the EU is/was considering humanitarian help.
So no, the graph doesn't fit.
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On July 17 2015 17:21 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 17:14 WhiteDog wrote:On July 17 2015 17:12 Velr wrote:
The graph is about who peoples blame and you somehow transform that into which peoples wants to help.
These are two totally diffrent things? Yeah because finding someone guilty or innocent of a behavior is not relevant to weither we punish or not that someone. that's not what the response was though. you: "unlike german people, french and italians want to help greece!" zatic: "german people want to help too... *looky*" and now you changed it to "punish" to fit your idea, which is the other side of the spectrum. And no, responsibility doesn't really have a lot to do with wether or not we want to/ need to help. If you get drunk all by yourself and stumble on the highway I'd still make sure you don't kill yourself. Not in anyway whatsoever supposed to be an analogy to the situation, just shows that you being responsible has very little to do with willingness to help somone if shit is serious and it is if the EU is/was considering humanitarian help. So no, the graph doesn't fit.
You're resuming my post to one sentence so that it can match your argument.
Here is what I wrote after what you somehow picked for your convenience :
It's not a question of leader, but of public opinion : most french and italian just want to help Greece, as shown in many pools (some posted even in this thread). Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek. Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek.
Most of the people in here don't even want to see reality as it is, as I've been posting fact non stop about this shitstorm and am still seeing the same ignorant argument (like Syriza created this situation...). When you point out that austerity have failed, but that Greece have been doing everything asked from them for the last five years, you still have people that respond to you that the Greek are responsible because they didn't do what they should have...
My point was exactly that northern posters criminalize Greece and thus desire to punish it.
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On July 17 2015 17:24 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 17:21 Toadesstern wrote:On July 17 2015 17:14 WhiteDog wrote:On July 17 2015 17:12 Velr wrote:
The graph is about who peoples blame and you somehow transform that into which peoples wants to help.
These are two totally diffrent things? Yeah because finding someone guilty or innocent of a behavior is not relevant to weither we punish or not that someone. that's not what the response was though. you: "unlike german people, french and italians want to help greece!" zatic: "german people want to help too... *looky*" and now you changed it to "punish" to fit your idea, which is the other side of the spectrum. And no, responsibility doesn't really have a lot to do with wether or not we want to/ need to help. If you get drunk all by yourself and stumble on the highway I'd still make sure you don't kill yourself. Not in anyway whatsoever supposed to be an analogy to the situation, just shows that you being responsible has very little to do with willingness to help somone if shit is serious and it is if the EU is/was considering humanitarian help. So no, the graph doesn't fit. You're resuming my post to one sentence so that it can match your argument.Here is what I wrote after what you somehow picked for your convenience : Show nested quote +It's not a question of leader, but of public opinion : most french and italian just want to help Greece, as shown in many pools (some posted even in this thread). Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek. Look at this thread, only "the north" is hell bent on punishing the Greek.
Most of the people in here don't even want to see reality as it is, as I've been posting fact non stop about this shitstorm and am still seeing the same ignorant argument (like Syriza created this situation...). When you point out that austerity have failed, but that Greece have been doing everything asked from them for the last five years, you still have people that respond to you that the Greek are responsible because they didn't do what they should have... My point was exactly that northern posters criminalize Greece and thus desire to punish it.
it is not what I picked out for my convenience. It is literally the only point zatic responded to. LITERALLY. He didn't mind anything else in your post. He specifically mentioned that and only talked about that one phrase. And you responded to something else.
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EPT
