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I simply don't understand this argument at all, which seems to be very popular in Germany. Greece is suffering a depression worse than the Great Depression, it has 25% unemployment, the banks have literally run out of money, people are starving and committing suicide, it is on the brink of being kicked out of the EU and the eurozone and the economy would be liquidated. It's just been forced to sign an agreement at gunpoint that destroys its sovereignty, its economy, and humiliates it completely.
That pretty much could be an article in the dailymail. Especially since you actually only show one side. The situation they're in right now is purely thanks to tsipras and varoufakis' inability to do actual politics, relying on populistic bullshit that people would like to hear but would never be achievable. They are humiliated, beaten, destroyed and whatever you wanna call it because they didn't want a deal. In germany there's a saying, "wer nicht kommt zur rechten Zeit, muss halt sehn was uebrig bleibt". "He who doesn't show up at the correct time, has to take what's left over".
Yes, it's sad for greeks, but it's very easy to point at the big bad wolf that's called EU, or Schaeuble - leaving out the people who actually escalated it, and were called on their bluffs. What you also leave out of the picture is that it is our taxmoney that gets thrown into a pit, not canadas.
Apart from the obvious that they're not forced to take a deal and put reforms into place before they get money. That's how it should be, always. It's not humiliation, it's necessary and should've never be done otherwise.
But many Germans, including apparently the German government, their main worry still seems to be that Greece hasn't suffered enough and that other countries might want to follow their example. What kind of madman would want to emulate Greece's path? You can see where the caricature of Merkel the dominatrix comes from. No amount of Greek suffering appears to be enough to satisfy the German government.
That's just an incredibly stupid statement mate. I don't even know what to answer to that.
You literally have zero idea, neither about germans, nor german politics by the looks (and people tried to explain that to you pages ago).
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On July 16 2015 05:11 Evil_Sheep wrote:"Germany, the largest contributor to Greek rescue funds, and a number of other eurozone countries have long resisted any talk of haircuts and debt relief." sourceMerkel's argument has consistently been that debt forgiveness is illegal under EU rules and therefore impossible. Therefore Greek debts will never be forgiven and every cent now owed will be eventually (somehow) paid.
You are still making the mistake of not differentiating between dept relief and dept restructuring!
The former is not her intension and not legal (as if she would care). The later is almost certainly in the planing, but not before Greece starts to 'reform'.
Of course they never officially brought it to the negotiation table, that would be bad tactic. But it is an open secret, that they have this option (at least as a plan b) in the drawers.
(The more I think about it, it is not even an open secret. They have actually talked about it openly, international media did not pick up on it because the condition is and has always been 'when Greece shows signs of real reform'.)
I simply don't understand this argument at all, which seems to be very popular in Germany. Greece is suffering a depression worse than the Great Depression, it has 25% unemployment, the banks have literally run out of money, people are starving and committing suicide, it is on the brink of being kicked out of the EU and the eurozone and the economy would be liquidated. It's just been forced to sign an agreement at gunpoint that destroys its sovereignty, its economy, and humiliates it completely.
But many Germans, including apparently the German government, their main worry still seems to be that Greece hasn't suffered enough and that other countries might want to follow their example. What kind of madman would want to emulate Greece's path? You can see where the caricature of Merkel the dominatrix comes from. No amount of Greek suffering appears to be enough to satisfy the German government. One can turn the question around, what kind of madman would still be playing political games and stall negotiations while his country is suffering?
Apparently Greek politicians. 5 years on they still have not tackled any of the real problems like tax evasion, bloated bureaucracy or clientelism. All they did was throwing their own poor people in front of the bus and now crying 'look at them, they are suffering so much'.
(Yes, that was hyperbolic. Of course, a lot of the demanded 'reforms' were bullshit and so on.)
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Everybody should agree to just walk away from the negotiations and just let Greece default. Everybody wins, Greece then stays in the Euro as there appears to be no mechanism to exit the Euro.
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On July 16 2015 05:54 Wolfstan wrote:
Everybody should agree to just walk away from the negotiations and just let Greece default. Everybody wins, Greece then stays in the Euro as there appears to be no mechanism to exit the Euro.
I get the feeling that living in Greece sort of feels like this:
![[image loading]](http://hellogiggles.hellogiggles.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/28/this-is-fine-meme-500x272c.jpg)
I have no idea what the plan is, but I guess this is the suffering everyone need to go through to get to the other side.
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On July 16 2015 05:54 Wolfstan wrote:
Everybody should agree to just walk away from the negotiations and just let Greece default. Everybody wins, Greece then stays in the Euro as there appears to be no mechanism to exit the Euro.
Nominally! Nominally they stay in the Euro, but if they introduce a second currency, sooner or later a legal solution will be found. And you can forget any goodwill from the others countries at that point. It means burning bridges.
Also, according to Varovakis Greek preparations for that situation are not very far along (they were all talk and little action on that plan b).
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lucky greece:
Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk: We're nothing like Greece
...
"Look, it's unacceptable to play this kind of brinkmanship game, and for example to put the responsibility, not on the politicians and on the political elite, but to derail it from politicians to the people like (the) Greeks did in the referendum," Yatsenyuk said in an interview conducted in a conference room of Washington's Willard Hotel. "If you are a strong leader, if you are a statehood person, you need to undertake bold and strong and decisive actions."
... src
Police in Western Ukraine Clash With Paramilitary Group; 7 Are Hurt
KIEV, Ukraine — In the worst breach yet between Ukrainian authorities and one of the pro-government right-wing paramilitary groups, at least seven people were wounded in a gun battle over the weekend in usually peaceful western Ukraine.
The fighting broke out in the town of Mukachevo, near the borders with Poland and Slovakia, both members of the European Union. Members of the paramilitary group, Right Sector, were videotaped Saturday afternoon firing at police officers from a belt-fed machine gun mounted on a pickup truck as they drove along a street.
... src
User was banned for this post.
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There certainly needs to be more suffering and reassessing what a Greek is worth compared to their eurozone partners. Cut the greek minimum wage and send humanitarian aid directly to the Greek people. The goodwill and trust is already gone, bridges have been burnt. Europeans are learning that giving money to Greek politicians and banks is a bad idea as they are terrible vehicles for delivering help to their Greek brothers and sisters.
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I have a question for everyone here: what motivation would the IMF have for releasing their report at a critical time right now? The IMF is neither generous nor stupid, so it's hard to see a reason. Is it the fear of a Grexit?
On the topic of German reputation: it's not smart to make lots of enemies abroad. Even the US will suffer from its hostile politics on so many fronts, and Germany is a far weaker and less stable economy than the US. There was no good reason to push for Greece to have to give away all its state assets in a fire sale. A Grexit doesn't seem so bad compared to this deal.
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And technically Greece has passed the deadline to implement the reforms....
Ofc I don't expect anything to happen because of it. Meeting by the Eurogroup to discuss isn't for another 10 hours but it is just another point in a long sad line.
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On July 16 2015 07:02 LegalLord wrote:
I have a question for everyone here: what motivation would the IMF have for releasing their report at a critical time right now? The IMF is neither generous nor stupid, so it's hard to see a reason. Is it the fear of a Grexit?
On the topic of German reputation: it's not smart to make lots of enemies abroad. Even the US will suffer from its hostile politics on so many fronts, and Germany is a far weaker and less stable economy than the US. There was no good reason to push for Greece to have to give away all its state assets in a fire sale. A Grexit doesn't seem so bad compared to this deal.
The IMF is part of the deal. They don't/can't want to be part of that deal without debt restructuring.
Maybe the IMF was hoping to get some changes made and according to a statement this evening by the head of the IMF there have been positive noises, whatever that means.
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On July 16 2015 07:07 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 07:02 LegalLord wrote:
I have a question for everyone here: what motivation would the IMF have for releasing their report at a critical time right now? The IMF is neither generous nor stupid, so it's hard to see a reason. Is it the fear of a Grexit?
On the topic of German reputation: it's not smart to make lots of enemies abroad. Even the US will suffer from its hostile politics on so many fronts, and Germany is a far weaker and less stable economy than the US. There was no good reason to push for Greece to have to give away all its state assets in a fire sale. A Grexit doesn't seem so bad compared to this deal. The IMF is part of the deal. They don't/can't want to be part of that deal without debt restructuring. Maybe the IMF was hoping to get some changes made and according to a statement this evening by the head of the IMF there have been positive noises, whatever that means.
Right, it looks to me like they don't want to give money to Greece, because they understand that it won't be paid back (technically Greece should already be kicked out of the IMF), so they made up a bunch of ad hoc reasons that the current deal will result in default. The fact is that almost all deals given to Greece are likely to end in default, so they aren't wrong, they are just trying to paint another party as the bad guys.
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On July 16 2015 07:02 LegalLord wrote:
I have a question for everyone here: what motivation would the IMF have for releasing their report at a critical time right now? The IMF is neither generous nor stupid, so it's hard to see a reason. Is it the fear of a Grexit? There is an internal battle going on inside IMF. In normal 'cases' (like Ukraine now) Greece would have written of its debt by now.
Giving out loans at this point (5 years into the crisis) and to a structurally unsustainable state is technically against IMF rules.
But IMF made an exception for their European friends and still continues to.
There is talk, that the next IMF president will not be an European any more (has always been one).
On the topic of German reputation: it's not smart to make lots of enemies abroad. Even the US will suffer from its hostile politics on so many fronts, and Germany is a far weaker and less stable economy than the US. That is very debatable.
I say, if the US did not have an army (or just one with a normal size), it would long be in a 'Greece situation', maybe even worse.
There was no good reason to push for Greece to have to give away all its state assets in a fire sale. There are very good reasons (from their point of view).
First, like any debtor Greece is expected to liquidize any positions that are available to them.
Second, privatizing state enterprises brings needed efficiency, thus more tax revenue.
Third, it was part of the agreed deal from 2012.
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Measures passed through Greece parliament. Part one is done. Still a lot to go.
Source
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On July 16 2015 08:02 Gorsameth wrote:Measures passed through Greece parliament. Part one is done. Still a lot to go. Source
cause for celebration?
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The anti austerity government just passed austerity legislation with the help of the opposition against the government, after the population reaffirmed that they don't want austerity any more. The Eurozone has communication problems
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On July 16 2015 10:06 Nyxisto wrote:
The anti austerity government just passed austerity legislation with the help of the opposition against the government, after the population reaffirmed that they don't want austerity any more. The Eurozone has communication problems
The Eurozone? This seems to be just Greece having communication problems.
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On July 16 2015 05:28 m4ini wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I simply don't understand this argument at all, which seems to be very popular in Germany. Greece is suffering a depression worse than the Great Depression, it has 25% unemployment, the banks have literally run out of money, people are starving and committing suicide, it is on the brink of being kicked out of the EU and the eurozone and the economy would be liquidated. It's just been forced to sign an agreement at gunpoint that destroys its sovereignty, its economy, and humiliates it completely. That pretty much could be an article in the dailymail. Especially since you actually only show one side. The situation they're in right now is purely thanks to tsipras and varoufakis' inability to do actual politics, relying on populistic bullshit that people would like to hear but would never be achievable. They are humiliated, beaten, destroyed and whatever you wanna call it because they didn't want a deal. In germany there's a saying, "wer nicht kommt zur rechten Zeit, muss halt sehn was uebrig bleibt". "He who doesn't show up at the correct time, has to take what's left over". Yes, it's sad for greeks, but it's very easy to point at the big bad wolf that's called EU, or Schaeuble - leaving out the people who actually escalated it, and were called on their bluffs. What you also leave out of the picture is that it is our taxmoney that gets thrown into a pit, not canadas. Apart from the obvious that they're not forced to take a deal and put reforms into place before they get money. That's how it should be, always. It's not humiliation, it's necessary and should've never be done otherwise.
But many Germans, including apparently the German government, their main worry still seems to be that Greece hasn't suffered enough and that other countries might want to follow their example. What kind of madman would want to emulate Greece's path? You can see where the caricature of Merkel the dominatrix comes from. No amount of Greek suffering appears to be enough to satisfy the German government.
That's just an incredibly stupid statement mate. I don't even know what to answer to that. You literally have zero idea, neither about germans, nor german politics by the looks (and people tried to explain that to you pages ago).
On July 16 2015 05:36 lord_nibbler wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 16 2015 05:11 Evil_Sheep wrote:"Germany, the largest contributor to Greek rescue funds, and a number of other eurozone countries have long resisted any talk of haircuts and debt relief." sourceMerkel's argument has consistently been that debt forgiveness is illegal under EU rules and therefore impossible. Therefore Greek debts will never be forgiven and every cent now owed will be eventually (somehow) paid. You are still making the mistake of not differentiating between dept relief and dept restructuring! The former is not her intension and not legal (as if she would care). The later is almost certainly in the planing, but not before Greece starts to 'reform'. Of course they never officially brought it to the negotiation table, that would be bad tactic. But it is an open secret, that they have this option (at least as a plan b) in the drawers. (The more I think about it, it is not even an open secret. They have actually talked about it openly, international media did not pick up on it because the condition is and has always been 'when Greece shows signs of real reform'.) I simply don't understand this argument at all, which seems to be very popular in Germany. Greece is suffering a depression worse than the Great Depression, it has 25% unemployment, the banks have literally run out of money, people are starving and committing suicide, it is on the brink of being kicked out of the EU and the eurozone and the economy would be liquidated. It's just been forced to sign an agreement at gunpoint that destroys its sovereignty, its economy, and humiliates it completely.
But many Germans, including apparently the German government, their main worry still seems to be that Greece hasn't suffered enough and that other countries might want to follow their example. What kind of madman would want to emulate Greece's path? You can see where the caricature of Merkel the dominatrix comes from. No amount of Greek suffering appears to be enough to satisfy the German government. One can turn the question around, what kind of madman would still be playing political games and stall negotiations while his country is suffering? Apparently Greek politicians. 5 years on they still have not tackled any of the real problems like tax evasion, bloated bureaucracy or clientelism. All they did was throwing their own poor people in front of the bus and now crying 'look at them, they are suffering so much'. (Yes, that was hyperbolic. Of course, a lot of the demanded 'reforms' were bullshit and so on.)
Neither of you are addressing what I've said. Simply that I've seen this argument made several times, virtually word for word as mahrgell put it: we can't forgive Greek debts because then they, Greece, will be getting off "easy" and other countries eg Spain, Italy, Portugal, might want to follow their path. And if you see what is going on in Greece, the scale of this disaster, to say that Greeks are getting off "easy" is, to me, lunacy. I just can't agree with the sentiment behind this argument at all.
Here is the Greek crisis, illustrated in facts and statistics, by the obviously xenophobic, extremist anti-German BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33507802
I'm not interested in making Germany a bogeyman, to villify Germany or Germans, or just to blame Germany for this crisis. Nor would I hold all Germans accountable for the actions of their government, nor Greeks for their incompetent leadership. There's plenty of blame to go all around, to Greeks, Germans, the IMF, and all Europeans (and when I refer to this, I'm referring to their leaders and governments, not their peoples. No, not you in this thread either, you're not to blame for your governments' incompetence. The peoples of Europe: Germans, Greeks, etc. are the victims of this crisis, not its perpetrators.)
But the German government also needs to take responsibility for the major role they've played in creating this crisis, instead of just pretending it's all the Greeks' fault. This is a caricature that is an obvious denial of a much more nuanced reality.
On July 16 2015 05:36 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 05:11 Evil_Sheep wrote:"Germany, the largest contributor to Greek rescue funds, and a number of other eurozone countries have long resisted any talk of haircuts and debt relief." sourceMerkel's argument has consistently been that debt forgiveness is illegal under EU rules and therefore impossible. Therefore Greek debts will never be forgiven and every cent now owed will be eventually (somehow) paid. You are still making the mistake of not differentiating between dept relief and dept restructuring
Debt restructuring includes either a) debt relief (aka forgiveness aka haircuts) or b) debt rescheduling (extending maturities etc)
On July 16 2015 05:28 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +
But many Germans, including apparently the German government, their main worry still seems to be that Greece hasn't suffered enough and that other countries might want to follow their example. What kind of madman would want to emulate Greece's path? You can see where the caricature of Merkel the dominatrix comes from. No amount of Greek suffering appears to be enough to satisfy the German government.
That's just an incredibly stupid statement mate. I don't even know what to answer to that. You literally have zero idea, neither about germans, nor german politics by the looks (and people tried to explain that to you pages ago).
I'll be happy to debate points I've raised about political and economic policy using facts and evidence and not personal attacks.
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On July 16 2015 07:02 LegalLord wrote:
I have a question for everyone here: what motivation would the IMF have for releasing their report at a critical time right now? The IMF is neither generous nor stupid, so it's hard to see a reason. Is it the fear of a Grexit?
I was also thinking about this question, and then I read this very interesting article: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/15/imf-greece-future-analysis-bailout
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debt relief is only a catch phrase and would have never happen but people like to believe and parrot it. it feeds their superiority complex.
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@Evil_Sheep: "Moral Hazard" is the principle they're talking about. It's a very real problem, to the point that it's functionally how the European Banks got into this problem with Greece, which caused the first bailout.
At the same time, turning Greece into an object lesson has made matters worse.
Oh, and for as much as the IMF gets a European as the head of it (and the World Bank has an American head), the IMF is an extension of US Foreign Policy. So the Guardian's piece is logically plausible. At the same time, it also works for butt covering.
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EPT
