Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
On July 08 2015 23:44 mahrgell wrote: I feel its funny, that most people don't even know, that Greece already got 150 bn debt cut during the bailout...
That 150 bn was the cheese in the trap that allowed the debt to move from private banks to ECB so that you, the dude in Europe can pay for their mistakes. You can thank our corrupt governments for that.
On July 08 2015 23:15 Gorsameth wrote: Yes its a reward. The same way you reward a dog with a snack when he doesn't shit in the living room.
I can't believe you wrote that. You were amusing when you were merely passing your boringly previsible predictions as facts, but showing your true self is not making you look prettier.
He is one of those people who thinks that all debtors are dead beats need some "tough love". Which is funny because I work in a branch debt collection(legal side) and even I don’t think that. Debt can cripple a debtor’s ability to recover and move on, which is why there are bankruptcy laws in the US that let you wipe out uncollectable debt. Countries don’t have that option. In bankruptcy court, the debt collectors can be told they are idiots and they have to write off the loans they handed out to people who can’t pay. But in this case, the banks just get bailed out by their governments.
He talks about rewarding bad behavior, but his and other EU governments did that exact thing to their banks.
Greece cannot go on the way it is. Even with no debt. Hence why they need to reform. If the Eurozone trusted Greece to do what was needed then most of the problems in the negotiations would not exist. But there is 0 trust and as such debt relief is not on the table until the Eurozone knows that reforms have been carried out. And no I have no problem at all with writing off the Greek debt but if we start with a write-off they will go right back to the very ways that lead them into this crisis.
And since your asking No i don't like banks, but this discussion has been about the situation Greece finds itself in right now. Not on how the world should deal with corrupt banks that play poker with the world economy.
Sure, just as long that those banks don’t have to take the loss. Of course Greece needs reforms and that should have been done before they were allowed into the Eurozone. But people didn’t want that and just wanted another country to lend money to.
Really the question is if using these debts at leverage is a good way to promote reforms. From all evidence, it does not appear to be the case. And I don’t think doubling down on the “tough love” will make it any better. Making them more broke isn’t going to help their people. Many who had zero hand in creating the situation.
What would you suggest then? Cutting their debt by X%, given them another Y billion and hoping they do the right thing so the same discussion doesn't happen in another 1-2 years?
Find an amount that ends the cycle of default and cut it to that. Then don't lend to them until they get their shit together. Rather than try to force change through harsh punishment, just don't allow them to make the same mistake again. Current the the public perception is Greece is that other powers are responsible for their economic woes. Ending the cycle of default will be a first step towards ending that.
Stop trying to get blood from a stone and just accept you have a Eurozone member that doesn't get to play by the Eurozone rules. Or boot them and let them default. Stop trying to beat them and just end it so everyone can move on.
PS: Clearly the issue is very complex, but the hard line approach of dragging this shit on for 10 years is just no sustainable.
That's basically saying to cut away all their debt, and let them rot in the consequences. I actually don't mind that idea at all. However, the political reality is that this will never ever happen.
Wilders and the like would have a field day, chortling that the EU just cost every Dutch taxpayer about 800 Euros for basically no benefit, though.
It would, in general be very hard to sell as a political win for Dijsselbloem or Merkel, and would line Spain up for a Podemos victory (I quite like Podemos and protested in some of the Indignados marches when I lived in Barcelona), which would mean Rajoy cannot possibly accept a deal like that.
On July 08 2015 23:15 Gorsameth wrote: Yes its a reward. The same way you reward a dog with a snack when he doesn't shit in the living room.
I can't believe you wrote that. You were amusing when you were merely passing your boringly previsible predictions as facts, but showing your true self is not making you look prettier.
He is one of those people who thinks that all debtors are dead beats need some "tough love". Which is funny because I work in a branch debt collection(legal side) and even I don’t think that. Debt can cripple a debtor’s ability to recover and move on, which is why there are bankruptcy laws in the US that let you wipe out uncollectable debt. Countries don’t have that option. In bankruptcy court, the debt collectors can be told they are idiots and they have to write off the loans they handed out to people who can’t pay. But in this case, the banks just get bailed out by their governments.
He talks about rewarding bad behavior, but his and other EU governments did that exact thing to their banks.
Greece cannot go on the way it is. Even with no debt. Hence why they need to reform. If the Eurozone trusted Greece to do what was needed then most of the problems in the negotiations would not exist. But there is 0 trust and as such debt relief is not on the table until the Eurozone knows that reforms have been carried out. And no I have no problem at all with writing off the Greek debt but if we start with a write-off they will go right back to the very ways that lead them into this crisis.
And since your asking No i don't like banks, but this discussion has been about the situation Greece finds itself in right now. Not on how the world should deal with corrupt banks that play poker with the world economy.
Sure, just as long that those banks don’t have to take the loss. Of course Greece needs reforms and that should have been done before they were allowed into the Eurozone. But people didn’t want that and just wanted another country to lend money to.
Really the question is if using these debts at leverage is a good way to promote reforms. From all evidence, it does not appear to be the case. And I don’t think doubling down on the “tough love” will make it any better. Making them more broke isn’t going to help their people. Many who had zero hand in creating the situation.
What would you suggest then? Cutting their debt by X%, given them another Y billion and hoping they do the right thing so the same discussion doesn't happen in another 1-2 years?
Find an amount that ends the cycle of default and cut it to that. Then don't lend to them until they get their shit together. Rather than try to force change through harsh punishment, just don't allow them to make the same mistake again. Current the the public perception is Greece is that other powers are responsible for their economic woes. Ending the cycle of default will be a first step towards ending that.
Stop trying to get blood from a stone and just accept you have a Eurozone member that doesn't get to play by the Eurozone rules. Or boot them and let them default. Stop trying to beat them and just end it so everyone can move on.
PS: Clearly the issue is very complex, but the hard line approach of dragging this shit on for 10 years is just no sustainable.
That's basically saying to cut away all their debt, and let them rot in the consequences. I actually don't mind that idea at all. However, the political reality is that this will never ever happen.
Wilders and the like would have a field day, chortling that the EU just cost every Dutch taxpayer about 800 Euros for basically no benefit, though.
It would, in general be very hard to sell as a political win for Dijsselbloem or Merkel, and would line Spain up for a Podemos victory (I quite like Podemos and protested in some of the Indignados marches when I lived in Barcelona), which would mean Rajoy cannot possibly accept a deal like that.
Well they can all enjoy the instability that trying to get blood from a stone provides. A judgment proof nation that they are trying to collect money from just so their tax payers can feel like they aren't being cheated.
Sorry, this is like every discussion I have with my clients when they whine about how they are right. And we have to remind them they did stupid things 10 years ago and that’s why they can’t just do what they want.
On July 08 2015 23:01 Acrofales wrote: That little blurb is all very well, but I think debt relief and restructuring is on the table, but ONLY after Greece actually makes reforms so that debt restructuring makes sense.
So how is it on the table?
Greece has to sign a deal where they are to do more reforms and austerity. Only if they do that then Eurogroup will hand out debt restructuring as they see fit. It will be handed out as a reward. This is the line that has come out of the Eurozone. So it is not to be part of any negotiations or and deal; it is not on the table and it is still a taboo to talk about it.
This means exactly that it is not on the table as it will never be part of a deal. This is the old Eurogroup position. So I don't know how you can say 'it is on the table'.
If it is truly on the table, so part of a possible deal, then EU changed their position. We are all waiting for Merkel to hold a speech and announce that debt restructuring is going to be part of the solution; is needed and offered, giving the green light for a deal Greece can accept.
If this don't happen they all have to find a situation where Greece is still barely inside the euro, barely not broke, barely not in chaos, and see if they can make circumstances on the Greek streets bad enough so that Greece will have absolutely no choice.
Greece has shown to be utterly unwilling to reform. You don't give them debt relief without reform having been done because else they will just say No again and go back to their old ways. How often has this been explained to you...
Yes its a reward. The same way you reward a dog with a snack when he doesn't shit in the living room.
Please try to be a bit less ignorant. You are comparing a country with a dog that needs to be put down... Seriously...
Don't put words in my mouth thank you. The analogy was bad and for that I apologize. It was not my intent to insult but no where did i say the dog should be put down.
I take it back as well but you may as well have said that... I know i sound bitter but bear with me, things are bad.
Austerity doesn't work. Pensions and public sector wages have been cut by at least 30% across the board. I have read reports (by trustworthy media) that the lowest incomes have to pay up to 330% more taxes than before. In 2012 the lowest wage for private sector was cut as well. That crushed the market even more, people have almost stopped spending money on anything that is not essential. Most major companies offered new contracts with lower wages, if you didn't sign you were out. Unemployment is at an official 28%, 60% on youth. Up to this point, anyone still in Greece, both bussinesses and people, is still here because they cannot leave, either because of age or obligations.
And btw most major media here are extremely anti-Syriza and corrupt to the bone. Last Tuesday an anchorman literaly said that a NO vote means that we will leave the Euro and lose parts of our country from invading neighbors. On a major network, at 7 pm. And yet NO won by 22%. People simply cannot pay anymore. My family cannot pay anymore. And yet the voted YES on the deal because they are afraid that what they have left will be gone too.
On July 08 2015 23:15 Gorsameth wrote: Yes its a reward. The same way you reward a dog with a snack when he doesn't shit in the living room.
I can't believe you wrote that. You were amusing when you were merely passing your boringly previsible predictions as facts, but showing your true self is not making you look prettier.
He is one of those people who thinks that all debtors are dead beats need some "tough love". Which is funny because I work in a branch debt collection(legal side) and even I don’t think that. Debt can cripple a debtor’s ability to recover and move on, which is why there are bankruptcy laws in the US that let you wipe out uncollectable debt. Countries don’t have that option. In bankruptcy court, the debt collectors can be told they are idiots and they have to write off the loans they handed out to people who can’t pay. But in this case, the banks just get bailed out by their governments.
He talks about rewarding bad behavior, but his and other EU governments did that exact thing to their banks.
Greece cannot go on the way it is. Even with no debt. Hence why they need to reform. If the Eurozone trusted Greece to do what was needed then most of the problems in the negotiations would not exist. But there is 0 trust and as such debt relief is not on the table until the Eurozone knows that reforms have been carried out. And no I have no problem at all with writing off the Greek debt but if we start with a write-off they will go right back to the very ways that lead them into this crisis.
And since your asking No i don't like banks, but this discussion has been about the situation Greece finds itself in right now. Not on how the world should deal with corrupt banks that play poker with the world economy.
Sure, just as long that those banks don’t have to take the loss. Of course Greece needs reforms and that should have been done before they were allowed into the Eurozone. But people didn’t want that and just wanted another country to lend money to.
Really the question is if using these debts at leverage is a good way to promote reforms. From all evidence, it does not appear to be the case. And I don’t think doubling down on the “tough love” will make it any better. Making them more broke isn’t going to help their people. Many who had zero hand in creating the situation.
What would you suggest then? Cutting their debt by X%, given them another Y billion and hoping they do the right thing so the same discussion doesn't happen in another 1-2 years?
Find an amount that ends the cycle of default and cut it to that. Then don't lend to them until they get their shit together. Rather than try to force change through harsh punishment, just don't allow them to make the same mistake again. Current the the public perception is Greece is that other powers are responsible for their economic woes. Ending the cycle of default will be a first step towards ending that.
Stop trying to get blood from a stone and just accept you have a Eurozone member that doesn't get to play by the Eurozone rules. Or boot them and let them default. Stop trying to beat them and just end it so everyone can move on.
PS: Clearly the issue is very complex, but the hard line approach of dragging this shit on for 10 years is just no sustainable.
I wonder how sustainable Greece is, even if we cut the entire 340 billion away. My (admittedly short) Google search didn't find an answer but a deal in such a way could provide a basis for an agreement. However can Greece make sufficient changes without access to more money from loans?
Personally I have no interest in drawing blood from the stone as you say, A Greek exit is fine by me even if it means we (the taxpayer) lose most of our money in the loans, I consider that money lost anyway. But Greece seems interested in staying in the Eurozone and that means accepting the Eurogroup demands imo.
On July 08 2015 23:15 Gorsameth wrote: Yes its a reward. The same way you reward a dog with a snack when he doesn't shit in the living room.
I can't believe you wrote that. You were amusing when you were merely passing your boringly previsible predictions as facts, but showing your true self is not making you look prettier.
He is one of those people who thinks that all debtors are dead beats need some "tough love". Which is funny because I work in a branch debt collection(legal side) and even I don’t think that. Debt can cripple a debtor’s ability to recover and move on, which is why there are bankruptcy laws in the US that let you wipe out uncollectable debt. Countries don’t have that option. In bankruptcy court, the debt collectors can be told they are idiots and they have to write off the loans they handed out to people who can’t pay. But in this case, the banks just get bailed out by their governments.
He talks about rewarding bad behavior, but his and other EU governments did that exact thing to their banks.
Greece cannot go on the way it is. Even with no debt. Hence why they need to reform. If the Eurozone trusted Greece to do what was needed then most of the problems in the negotiations would not exist. But there is 0 trust and as such debt relief is not on the table until the Eurozone knows that reforms have been carried out. And no I have no problem at all with writing off the Greek debt but if we start with a write-off they will go right back to the very ways that lead them into this crisis.
And since your asking No i don't like banks, but this discussion has been about the situation Greece finds itself in right now. Not on how the world should deal with corrupt banks that play poker with the world economy.
Sure, just as long that those banks don’t have to take the loss. Of course Greece needs reforms and that should have been done before they were allowed into the Eurozone. But people didn’t want that and just wanted another country to lend money to.
Really the question is if using these debts at leverage is a good way to promote reforms. From all evidence, it does not appear to be the case. And I don’t think doubling down on the “tough love” will make it any better. Making them more broke isn’t going to help their people. Many who had zero hand in creating the situation.
What would you suggest then? Cutting their debt by X%, given them another Y billion and hoping they do the right thing so the same discussion doesn't happen in another 1-2 years?
Find an amount that ends the cycle of default and cut it to that. Then don't lend to them until they get their shit together. Rather than try to force change through harsh punishment, just don't allow them to make the same mistake again. Current the the public perception is Greece is that other powers are responsible for their economic woes. Ending the cycle of default will be a first step towards ending that.
Stop trying to get blood from a stone and just accept you have a Eurozone member that doesn't get to play by the Eurozone rules. Or boot them and let them default. Stop trying to beat them and just end it so everyone can move on.
PS: Clearly the issue is very complex, but the hard line approach of dragging this shit on for 10 years is just no sustainable.
I wonder how sustainable Greece is, even if we cut the entire 340 billion away. My (admittedly short) Google search didn't find an answer but a deal in such a way could provide a basis for an agreement. However can Greece make sufficient changes without access to more money from loans?
Personally I have no interest in drawing blood from the stone as you say, A Greek exit is fine by me even if it means we (the taxpayer) lose most of our money in the loans, I consider that money lost anyway. But Greece seems interested in staying in the Eurozone and that means accepting the Eurogroup demands imo.
I think saying in the Eurozone is way more of an enticing reason to reform that 340 billion in debt that they can't pay.
On July 08 2015 23:15 Gorsameth wrote: Yes its a reward. The same way you reward a dog with a snack when he doesn't shit in the living room.
I can't believe you wrote that. You were amusing when you were merely passing your boringly previsible predictions as facts, but showing your true self is not making you look prettier.
He is one of those people who thinks that all debtors are dead beats need some "tough love". Which is funny because I work in a branch debt collection(legal side) and even I don’t think that. Debt can cripple a debtor’s ability to recover and move on, which is why there are bankruptcy laws in the US that let you wipe out uncollectable debt. Countries don’t have that option. In bankruptcy court, the debt collectors can be told they are idiots and they have to write off the loans they handed out to people who can’t pay. But in this case, the banks just get bailed out by their governments.
He talks about rewarding bad behavior, but his and other EU governments did that exact thing to their banks.
Greece cannot go on the way it is. Even with no debt. Hence why they need to reform. If the Eurozone trusted Greece to do what was needed then most of the problems in the negotiations would not exist. But there is 0 trust and as such debt relief is not on the table until the Eurozone knows that reforms have been carried out. And no I have no problem at all with writing off the Greek debt but if we start with a write-off they will go right back to the very ways that lead them into this crisis.
And since your asking No i don't like banks, but this discussion has been about the situation Greece finds itself in right now. Not on how the world should deal with corrupt banks that play poker with the world economy.
Sure, just as long that those banks don’t have to take the loss. Of course Greece needs reforms and that should have been done before they were allowed into the Eurozone. But people didn’t want that and just wanted another country to lend money to.
Really the question is if using these debts at leverage is a good way to promote reforms. From all evidence, it does not appear to be the case. And I don’t think doubling down on the “tough love” will make it any better. Making them more broke isn’t going to help their people. Many who had zero hand in creating the situation.
What would you suggest then? Cutting their debt by X%, given them another Y billion and hoping they do the right thing so the same discussion doesn't happen in another 1-2 years?
Find an amount that ends the cycle of default and cut it to that. Then don't lend to them until they get their shit together. Rather than try to force change through harsh punishment, just don't allow them to make the same mistake again. Current the the public perception is Greece is that other powers are responsible for their economic woes. Ending the cycle of default will be a first step towards ending that.
Stop trying to get blood from a stone and just accept you have a Eurozone member that doesn't get to play by the Eurozone rules. Or boot them and let them default. Stop trying to beat them and just end it so everyone can move on.
PS: Clearly the issue is very complex, but the hard line approach of dragging this shit on for 10 years is just no sustainable.
I wonder how sustainable Greece is, even if we cut the entire 340 billion away. My (admittedly short) Google search didn't find an answer but a deal in such a way could provide a basis for an agreement. However can Greece make sufficient changes without access to more money from loans?
Personally I have no interest in drawing blood from the stone as you say, A Greek exit is fine by me even if it means we (the taxpayer) lose most of our money in the loans, I consider that money lost anyway. But Greece seems interested in staying in the Eurozone and that means accepting the Eurogroup demands imo.
That's the whole point: they aren't sustainable at all without loans (they have a primary budget deficit, which is what the whole point of the negotiations is: trying to impose reforms that make Greece run a primary budget surplus). But Plansix's solution is to basically just let them rot in their unsustainability.
It's basically telling Tsipras: "you want debt relief? Here! Have debt relief. But we also install a moratorium on you borrowing any more money until you can pay back loans". He still cannot pay all the pensions, health care, civil servant salaries, etc. etc. but it is no longer Europe's problem, except for providing accute humanitarian aide to make sure the Greek citizens don't actually die of hunger or lack of medicine.
Of course, whether it is at all possible to instate a moratorium on loans to a sovereign nation is a legal tangle that I don't think anybody has the balls to touch... and moreover, what if Russia swoops in and says: "here, have some free money, as long as you lease us <insert random greek island> to build a naval base on?
Worth a watch ? Seriously ? Is this how you speak to an elected representant of the Greek people ? And you like it ? You like politicians that lose their cool ? That's just insulting, nothing more.
On July 08 2015 23:15 Gorsameth wrote: Yes its a reward. The same way you reward a dog with a snack when he doesn't shit in the living room.
I can't believe you wrote that. You were amusing when you were merely passing your boringly previsible predictions as facts, but showing your true self is not making you look prettier.
He is one of those people who thinks that all debtors are dead beats need some "tough love". Which is funny because I work in a branch debt collection(legal side) and even I don’t think that. Debt can cripple a debtor’s ability to recover and move on, which is why there are bankruptcy laws in the US that let you wipe out uncollectable debt. Countries don’t have that option. In bankruptcy court, the debt collectors can be told they are idiots and they have to write off the loans they handed out to people who can’t pay. But in this case, the banks just get bailed out by their governments.
He talks about rewarding bad behavior, but his and other EU governments did that exact thing to their banks.
Greece cannot go on the way it is. Even with no debt. Hence why they need to reform. If the Eurozone trusted Greece to do what was needed then most of the problems in the negotiations would not exist. But there is 0 trust and as such debt relief is not on the table until the Eurozone knows that reforms have been carried out. And no I have no problem at all with writing off the Greek debt but if we start with a write-off they will go right back to the very ways that lead them into this crisis.
And since your asking No i don't like banks, but this discussion has been about the situation Greece finds itself in right now. Not on how the world should deal with corrupt banks that play poker with the world economy.
Sure, just as long that those banks don’t have to take the loss. Of course Greece needs reforms and that should have been done before they were allowed into the Eurozone. But people didn’t want that and just wanted another country to lend money to.
Really the question is if using these debts at leverage is a good way to promote reforms. From all evidence, it does not appear to be the case. And I don’t think doubling down on the “tough love” will make it any better. Making them more broke isn’t going to help their people. Many who had zero hand in creating the situation.
What would you suggest then? Cutting their debt by X%, given them another Y billion and hoping they do the right thing so the same discussion doesn't happen in another 1-2 years?
Find an amount that ends the cycle of default and cut it to that. Then don't lend to them until they get their shit together. Rather than try to force change through harsh punishment, just don't allow them to make the same mistake again. Current the the public perception is Greece is that other powers are responsible for their economic woes. Ending the cycle of default will be a first step towards ending that.
Stop trying to get blood from a stone and just accept you have a Eurozone member that doesn't get to play by the Eurozone rules. Or boot them and let them default. Stop trying to beat them and just end it so everyone can move on.
PS: Clearly the issue is very complex, but the hard line approach of dragging this shit on for 10 years is just no sustainable.
I wonder how sustainable Greece is, even if we cut the entire 340 billion away. My (admittedly short) Google search didn't find an answer but a deal in such a way could provide a basis for an agreement. However can Greece make sufficient changes without access to more money from loans?
Personally I have no interest in drawing blood from the stone as you say, A Greek exit is fine by me even if it means we (the taxpayer) lose most of our money in the loans, I consider that money lost anyway. But Greece seems interested in staying in the Eurozone and that means accepting the Eurogroup demands imo.
I think saying in the Eurozone is way more of an enticing reason to reform that 340 billion in debt that they can't pay.
The thing is tho if you want to be in the Eurozone you have to play by their rules. There is already to much independence for a successful monetary union.
Note I'm not a fan of giving up national sovereignty for the Euro at all. Just stating how it is.
Worth a watch ? Seriously ? Is this how you speak to an elected representant of the Greek people ? And you like it ? You like politicians that lose their cool ? That's just insulting, nothing more.
Do I respect a politician that is willing to say it how it is after having been led along in more then 5 months of stalling by an incompetent and downright insulting government? Yes, yes I do.
Worth a watch ? Seriously ? Is this how you speak to an elected representant of the Greek people ? And you like it ? You like politicians that lose their cool ? That's just insulting, nothing more.
Do I respect a politician that is willing to say it how it is after having been led along in more then 5 months of stalling by an incompetent and downright insulting government? Yes, yes I do.
You respect politician that insult the weak ? You don't understand what is at the core of political instability. Taking away all the dignity of the Greeks is not the solution. People like you are the reasons as to why this union will disappear - hands in hands with the guy verhofstad, the junker and the schaüble of the world. There's no redemption for Europe if technocrats continue to believe they have the solution for everyone - while they in fact know nothing (especially a "liberal" such as Verhofstadt).
On July 08 2015 23:15 Gorsameth wrote: Yes its a reward. The same way you reward a dog with a snack when he doesn't shit in the living room.
I can't believe you wrote that. You were amusing when you were merely passing your boringly previsible predictions as facts, but showing your true self is not making you look prettier.
He is one of those people who thinks that all debtors are dead beats need some "tough love". Which is funny because I work in a branch debt collection(legal side) and even I don’t think that. Debt can cripple a debtor’s ability to recover and move on, which is why there are bankruptcy laws in the US that let you wipe out uncollectable debt. Countries don’t have that option. In bankruptcy court, the debt collectors can be told they are idiots and they have to write off the loans they handed out to people who can’t pay. But in this case, the banks just get bailed out by their governments.
He talks about rewarding bad behavior, but his and other EU governments did that exact thing to their banks.
Greece cannot go on the way it is. Even with no debt. Hence why they need to reform. If the Eurozone trusted Greece to do what was needed then most of the problems in the negotiations would not exist. But there is 0 trust and as such debt relief is not on the table until the Eurozone knows that reforms have been carried out. And no I have no problem at all with writing off the Greek debt but if we start with a write-off they will go right back to the very ways that lead them into this crisis.
And since your asking No i don't like banks, but this discussion has been about the situation Greece finds itself in right now. Not on how the world should deal with corrupt banks that play poker with the world economy.
Sure, just as long that those banks don’t have to take the loss. Of course Greece needs reforms and that should have been done before they were allowed into the Eurozone. But people didn’t want that and just wanted another country to lend money to.
Really the question is if using these debts at leverage is a good way to promote reforms. From all evidence, it does not appear to be the case. And I don’t think doubling down on the “tough love” will make it any better. Making them more broke isn’t going to help their people. Many who had zero hand in creating the situation.
What would you suggest then? Cutting their debt by X%, given them another Y billion and hoping they do the right thing so the same discussion doesn't happen in another 1-2 years?
Find an amount that ends the cycle of default and cut it to that. Then don't lend to them until they get their shit together. Rather than try to force change through harsh punishment, just don't allow them to make the same mistake again. Current the the public perception is Greece is that other powers are responsible for their economic woes. Ending the cycle of default will be a first step towards ending that.
Stop trying to get blood from a stone and just accept you have a Eurozone member that doesn't get to play by the Eurozone rules. Or boot them and let them default. Stop trying to beat them and just end it so everyone can move on.
PS: Clearly the issue is very complex, but the hard line approach of dragging this shit on for 10 years is just no sustainable.
I wonder how sustainable Greece is, even if we cut the entire 340 billion away. My (admittedly short) Google search didn't find an answer but a deal in such a way could provide a basis for an agreement. However can Greece make sufficient changes without access to more money from loans?
Personally I have no interest in drawing blood from the stone as you say, A Greek exit is fine by me even if it means we (the taxpayer) lose most of our money in the loans, I consider that money lost anyway. But Greece seems interested in staying in the Eurozone and that means accepting the Eurogroup demands imo.
I think saying in the Eurozone is way more of an enticing reason to reform that 340 billion in debt that they can't pay.
The thing is tho if you want to be in the Eurozone you have to play by their rules. There is already to much independence for a successful monetary union.
Note I'm not a fan of giving up national sovereignty for the Euro at all. Just stating how it is.
That's hypocrisy. I never saw you cry when Germany or France didn't respect the budgetary rules from 2000 to 2010.
It is not so bad what Verhofstadt says, but it is an extreme example of hypocrisy since he is a right wing free market liberal who refuse to clean up their own garbage.
Worth a watch ? Seriously ? Is this how you speak to an elected representant of the Greek people ? And you like it ? You like politicians that lose their cool ? That's just insulting, nothing more.
Do I respect a politician that is willing to say it how it is after having been led along in more then 5 months of stalling by an incompetent and downright insulting government? Yes, yes I do.
You respect politician that insult the weak ? You don't understand what is at the core of political instability. Taking away all the dignity of the Greeks is not the solution. People like you are the reasons as to why this union will disappear - hands in hands with the guy verhofstad, the junker and the schaüble of the world. There's no redemption for Europe if technocrats continue to believe they have the solution for everyone - while they in fact know nothing (especially a "liberal" such as Verhofstadt).
The weak? We are talking about Tsipras here. He isn't insulting the Greek baker on the street corner trying to make a living. He is mad at a politician who had the chance to make a difference and turn Greece around but instead sat on his hands for half a year and is now about to lead his nation into an ugly default because he is unwilling to make a choice.
Worth a watch ? Seriously ? Is this how you speak to an elected representant of the Greek people ? And you like it ? You like politicians that lose their cool ? That's just insulting, nothing more.
Do I respect a politician that is willing to say it how it is after having been led along in more then 5 months of stalling by an incompetent and downright insulting government? Yes, yes I do.
You respect politician that insult the weak ? You don't understand what is at the core of political instability. Taking away all the dignity of the Greeks is not the solution. People like you are the reasons as to why this union will disappear - hands in hands with the guy verhofstad, the junker and the schaüble of the world. There's no redemption for Europe if technocrats continue to believe they have the solution for everyone - while they in fact know nothing (especially a "liberal" such as Verhofstadt).
On July 08 2015 23:26 corumjhaelen wrote: [quote] I can't believe you wrote that. You were amusing when you were merely passing your boringly previsible predictions as facts, but showing your true self is not making you look prettier.
He is one of those people who thinks that all debtors are dead beats need some "tough love". Which is funny because I work in a branch debt collection(legal side) and even I don’t think that. Debt can cripple a debtor’s ability to recover and move on, which is why there are bankruptcy laws in the US that let you wipe out uncollectable debt. Countries don’t have that option. In bankruptcy court, the debt collectors can be told they are idiots and they have to write off the loans they handed out to people who can’t pay. But in this case, the banks just get bailed out by their governments.
He talks about rewarding bad behavior, but his and other EU governments did that exact thing to their banks.
Greece cannot go on the way it is. Even with no debt. Hence why they need to reform. If the Eurozone trusted Greece to do what was needed then most of the problems in the negotiations would not exist. But there is 0 trust and as such debt relief is not on the table until the Eurozone knows that reforms have been carried out. And no I have no problem at all with writing off the Greek debt but if we start with a write-off they will go right back to the very ways that lead them into this crisis.
And since your asking No i don't like banks, but this discussion has been about the situation Greece finds itself in right now. Not on how the world should deal with corrupt banks that play poker with the world economy.
Sure, just as long that those banks don’t have to take the loss. Of course Greece needs reforms and that should have been done before they were allowed into the Eurozone. But people didn’t want that and just wanted another country to lend money to.
Really the question is if using these debts at leverage is a good way to promote reforms. From all evidence, it does not appear to be the case. And I don’t think doubling down on the “tough love” will make it any better. Making them more broke isn’t going to help their people. Many who had zero hand in creating the situation.
What would you suggest then? Cutting their debt by X%, given them another Y billion and hoping they do the right thing so the same discussion doesn't happen in another 1-2 years?
Find an amount that ends the cycle of default and cut it to that. Then don't lend to them until they get their shit together. Rather than try to force change through harsh punishment, just don't allow them to make the same mistake again. Current the the public perception is Greece is that other powers are responsible for their economic woes. Ending the cycle of default will be a first step towards ending that.
Stop trying to get blood from a stone and just accept you have a Eurozone member that doesn't get to play by the Eurozone rules. Or boot them and let them default. Stop trying to beat them and just end it so everyone can move on.
PS: Clearly the issue is very complex, but the hard line approach of dragging this shit on for 10 years is just no sustainable.
I wonder how sustainable Greece is, even if we cut the entire 340 billion away. My (admittedly short) Google search didn't find an answer but a deal in such a way could provide a basis for an agreement. However can Greece make sufficient changes without access to more money from loans?
Personally I have no interest in drawing blood from the stone as you say, A Greek exit is fine by me even if it means we (the taxpayer) lose most of our money in the loans, I consider that money lost anyway. But Greece seems interested in staying in the Eurozone and that means accepting the Eurogroup demands imo.
I think saying in the Eurozone is way more of an enticing reason to reform that 340 billion in debt that they can't pay.
The thing is tho if you want to be in the Eurozone you have to play by their rules. There is already to much independence for a successful monetary union.
Note I'm not a fan of giving up national sovereignty for the Euro at all. Just stating how it is.
Hypocrite. I never saw you cry when Germany or France didn't respect the budgetary rules from 2000 to 2010.
Not sure I was in this topic at that time. It's worth nothing to you but since you asked, at dinner table conversations ect yes I did complain about it. Netherlands being the good little schoolboy and keeping our deficit under 3% while the rest just ignored it. If you wanne know my position on a variety of subjects then by all means ask and I'll do my best to answer them.
Worth a watch ? Seriously ? Is this how you speak to an elected representant of the Greek people ? And you like it ? You like politicians that lose their cool ? That's just insulting, nothing more.
Do I respect a politician that is willing to say it how it is after having been led along in more then 5 months of stalling by an incompetent and downright insulting government? Yes, yes I do.
You respect politician that insult the weak ? You don't understand what is at the core of political instability. Taking away all the dignity of the Greeks is not the solution. People like you are the reasons as to why this union will disappear - hands in hands with the guy verhofstad, the junker and the schaüble of the world. There's no redemption for Europe if technocrats continue to believe they have the solution for everyone - while they in fact know nothing (especially a "liberal" such as Verhofstadt).
The weak? We are talking about Tsipras here. He isn't insulting the Greek baker on the street corner trying to make a living. He is mad at a politician who had the chance to make a difference and turn Greece around but instead sat on his hands for half a year and is now about to lead his nation into an ugly default because he is unwilling to make a choice.
So you don't understand that Tsipras is Greece's elected official ? It's like the french football team, in France you can insult it, but if the foreign press insult it, they are indeed insulting France. That's how it is when you represent your country.
Worth a watch ? Seriously ? Is this how you speak to an elected representant of the Greek people ? And you like it ? You like politicians that lose their cool ? That's just insulting, nothing more.
Do I respect a politician that is willing to say it how it is after having been led along in more then 5 months of stalling by an incompetent and downright insulting government? Yes, yes I do.
You respect politician that insult the weak ? You don't understand what is at the core of political instability. Taking away all the dignity of the Greeks is not the solution. People like you are the reasons as to why this union will disappear - hands in hands with the guy verhofstad, the junker and the schaüble of the world. There's no redemption for Europe if technocrats continue to believe they have the solution for everyone - while they in fact know nothing (especially a "liberal" such as Verhofstadt).
What kind of sheltered life must French politics be, if you think that was particularly rude? Also, position does not grand respect per default, it has to be somewhat earned. If this was really Tsipras first visit to the EU parliament after 5 month of being in the center of the most important EU issue, than I can understand the lack of respect from these guys.
Worth a watch ? Seriously ? Is this how you speak to an elected representant of the Greek people ? And you like it ? You like politicians that lose their cool ? That's just insulting, nothing more.
Do I respect a politician that is willing to say it how it is after having been led along in more then 5 months of stalling by an incompetent and downright insulting government? Yes, yes I do.
You respect politician that insult the weak ? You don't understand what is at the core of political instability. Taking away all the dignity of the Greeks is not the solution. People like you are the reasons as to why this union will disappear - hands in hands with the guy verhofstad, the junker and the schaüble of the world. There's no redemption for Europe if technocrats continue to believe they have the solution for everyone - while they in fact know nothing (especially a "liberal" such as Verhofstadt).
What kind of sheltered life must French politics be, if you think that was particularly rude? Also, position does not grand respect per default, it has to be somewhat earned. If this was really Tsipras first visit to the EU parliament after 5 month of being in the center of the most important EU issue, than I can understand the lack of respect from these guys.
French politics is between french. This is european politics, and much like international politics it needs a little more thought than that.
Worth a watch ? Seriously ? Is this how you speak to an elected representant of the Greek people ? And you like it ? You like politicians that lose their cool ? That's just insulting, nothing more.
Do I respect a politician that is willing to say it how it is after having been led along in more then 5 months of stalling by an incompetent and downright insulting government? Yes, yes I do.
You respect politician that insult the weak ? You don't understand what is at the core of political instability. Taking away all the dignity of the Greeks is not the solution. People like you are the reasons as to why this union will disappear - hands in hands with the guy verhofstad, the junker and the schaüble of the world. There's no redemption for Europe if technocrats continue to believe they have the solution for everyone - while they in fact know nothing (especially a "liberal" such as Verhofstadt).
The weak? We are talking about Tsipras here. He isn't insulting the Greek baker on the street corner trying to make a living. He is mad at a politician who had the chance to make a difference and turn Greece around but instead sat on his hands for half a year and is now about to lead his nation into an ugly default because he is unwilling to make a choice.
So you don't understand that Tsipras is Greece's elected official ? It's like the french football team, in France you can insult it, but if the foreign press insult it, they are indeed insulting France. That's how it is when you represent your country.
Ahh did someone hurt your feelings? Grow up. If Tsipras wants respect he can do something to earn it. Not make a clown of himself and his country by his (lack of) actions. Why should I feel insulted if someone insults our Football team?
Worth a watch ? Seriously ? Is this how you speak to an elected representant of the Greek people ? And you like it ? You like politicians that lose their cool ? That's just insulting, nothing more.
Do I respect a politician that is willing to say it how it is after having been led along in more then 5 months of stalling by an incompetent and downright insulting government? Yes, yes I do.
You respect politician that insult the weak ? You don't understand what is at the core of political instability. Taking away all the dignity of the Greeks is not the solution. People like you are the reasons as to why this union will disappear - hands in hands with the guy verhofstad, the junker and the schaüble of the world. There's no redemption for Europe if technocrats continue to believe they have the solution for everyone - while they in fact know nothing (especially a "liberal" such as Verhofstadt).
The weak? We are talking about Tsipras here. He isn't insulting the Greek baker on the street corner trying to make a living. He is mad at a politician who had the chance to make a difference and turn Greece around but instead sat on his hands for half a year and is now about to lead his nation into an ugly default because he is unwilling to make a choice.
So you don't understand that Tsipras is Greece's elected official ? It's like the french football team, in France you can insult it, but if the foreign press insult it, they are indeed insulting France. That's how it is when you represent your country.
Ahh did someone hurt your feelings? Grow up. If Tsipras wants respect he can do something to earn it. Not make a clown of himself and his country by his (lack of) actions. Why should I feel insulted if someone insults our Football team?
I'm not hurt at all, I'm trying to explain something to someone and thought a football metaphore might do the trick. Anyway, Tsipras is actually the only politicians who has some guts in Europe, just because he is not doing what you want doesn't mean he is a clown.
EPT
