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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
On July 03 2015 19:17 maartendq wrote: Not really, but apparently France is still not over Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo. Still trying to recover from Alesia, no time to think about Waterloo. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On July 03 2015 19:37 Oshuy wrote: Still trying to recover from Alesia, no time to think about Waterloo. LOL, too true :p I think we might be even saltier about Trafalgar than Waterloo. Future officers of the French army commemorate Austerlitz every year. Also who cares about Leipzig, Borodino is where it's at. Can we print a coin celebrating Salamis and Themistocles, or Plataea instead ? :p Edit : maybe we should edit a Patay euro coin. A pity UK is not in the euro... | ||
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RapidTiger
59 Posts
Why is debt such an important topic, not just for Greece, but for the US as well? I know it's a concern for Greece considering that it owes money to the ECB. But for the US, it can just print money and wash all the debt away, can't they? Or they can just refuse to pay back the debt. Also what if a country's debt is mostly internally held like Japan's debt? That's not a problem right? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18001 Posts
On July 03 2015 20:15 RapidTiger wrote: Hey guys, sorry if this is a naive question but here it goes: Why is debt such an important topic, not just for Greece, but for the US as well? I know it's a concern for Greece considering that it owes money to the ECB. But for the US, it can just print money and wash all the debt away, can't they? Or they can just refuse to pay back the debt. Also what if a country's debt is mostly internally held like Japan's debt? That's not a problem right? The problem is that if you decide to do that, then suddenly nobody wants to loan you any money anymore. Or if they do, only at exorbitant interest rates or other concessions (military bases, concessions to industry, mineral rights, or whatever that country wants at that point) Printing unlimited amounts of money to do the same has far-reaching effect on all economic scales, and is a pretty bad idea in the large scheme of things. It also has largely the same effect as above on your creditors: if you are prone to just dilute your debt whenever you feel like it, they will either call you out on it and request debts be paid off in yuans instead of dollars, or will now start loaning you money at exorbitant interest rates to set off the fact that by the time you pay it back in dollars the exchange rate is worthless. | ||
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RapidTiger
59 Posts
On July 03 2015 20:41 Acrofales wrote: The problem is that if you decide to do that, then suddenly nobody wants to loan you any money anymore. Or if they do, only at exorbitant interest rates or other concessions (military bases, concessions to industry, mineral rights, or whatever that country wants at that point) Printing unlimited amounts of money to do the same has far-reaching effect on all economic scales, and is a pretty bad idea in the large scheme of things. It also has largely the same effect as above on your creditors: if you are prone to just dilute your debt whenever you feel like it, they will either call you out on it and request debts be paid off in yuans instead of dollars, or will now start loaning you money at exorbitant interest rates to set off the fact that by the time you pay it back in dollars the exchange rate is worthless. Alright thanks. What if all the government debt was held internally by the country's own citizens? That debt doesn't matter right? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18001 Posts
On July 03 2015 21:03 RapidTiger wrote: Alright thanks. What if all the government debt was held internally by the country's own citizens? That debt doesn't matter right? It matters differently, but it depends a lot on the creditors. If you decide to default on your debts to your own citizens, you're likely to have riots and a revolt on your hands. In general, debts don't matter as long as you are (a) able to pay off the installments as they come due and (b) believed to be capable of paying off future installments when they come due. If either of the above fails then suddenly people are far less willing to loan you more money, which tends to lead to problems: any country with a budget deficit has to borrow money to pay for expenses, and if you can't do that you end up not paying expenses. Whether that is medical aid, road works, pensions, debt installments, or what have you: someone is expecting money and will be pissed off to not receive that. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2620 Posts
Since taxes usually come in end of the month or end of the year it's much easier for everyone to take "small" loans over a shorter period to keep things running smoothly. This is of course not done on the national level but many smaller loans by different government entities. If you can't pay your other loans these day to day loans get much higher interest rates which affects everything. In the worst case scenario you don't get your loans, then you have to live hand to mouth so to say and wait until you get taxes in order to pay your workers, or get whatever needs to be gotten. Like say your a hospital and your MR machine breaks down. If you have to buy a new one and you can't take a loan (go over budget and borrow the money from the government more or less) you either don't have one until you get the actual money or you can't pay your employees because you used your money for that. And if the government needs to shuffle over more money to cover that cost they need to decide where to get them from, wait for the actual money to come in and then give them to the hospital. Since it's bureaucracy that can take a while. Banks are pretty important for a reason. | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
On July 03 2015 20:15 RapidTiger wrote: Hey guys, sorry if this is a naive question but here it goes: Why is debt such an important topic, not just for Greece, but for the US as well? I know it's a concern for Greece considering that it owes money to the ECB. But for the US, it can just print money and wash all the debt away, can't they? Or they can just refuse to pay back the debt. Also what if a country's debt is mostly internally held like Japan's debt? That's not a problem right? Japan is too complicated for laymen to grasp, I think. It is liquidity trap territory, I don't really get it. Part of the reason the ECB is performing QE is so that the EZ doesn't become Japan. Generally, printing money is tricky because there aren't too many channels through which that money gets into the economy. QE buys assets, for example, which may create bubbles more than it stimulates growth. But debt is a lot less important if it is denominated in your own currency, even less important if it is the global reserve currency (so USA shouldn't really care - and in fact doesn't really care, no matter what some far right wing idiots say). Greece owes money in foreign currency and has a banking system under foreign control (ECB), meaning it can't print or devalue to get out of trouble. Up until recently, it required borrowing to fund itself (as opposed to servicing its debt) and that may be the case yet again this year if things continue to develop as they are now. High debt is crippling under these circumstances and politics play a major role too (politics would play much less of a role in a federalized Europe scenario but it doesn't look like we'll get there anytime soon). | ||
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RapidTiger
59 Posts
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BeHave
Germany121 Posts
Inside the german military scene (have to admit it's very small not much discussion etc) it's a topic that is very well received, Especially military personnel thinks highly of this idea because it might give us the chance to get gear that is actually working. Examples for existing cooperations are the german-french brigade or the dutch airborne unit that is basically given to the german fast reaction division (german airborne divison). What interests me the most is the french, dutch and polish opinion on this. In my eyes these 3 countries are the closest allies Germany has and can ever hope for. I think a united approach to self defence would be the next step towards a united europe. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21694 Posts
On July 03 2015 22:18 BeHave wrote: What do you guys think about a joint european military? Inside the german military scene (have to admit it's very small not much discussion etc) it's a topic that is very well received, Especially military personnel thinks highly of this idea because it might give us the chance to get gear that is actually working. Examples for existing cooperations are the german-french brigade or the dutch airborne unit that is basically given to the german fast reaction division (german airborne divison). What interests me the most is the french, dutch and polish opinion on this. In my eyes these 3 countries are the closest allies Germany has and can ever hope for. I think a united approach to self defence would be the next step towards a united europe. Seems like a political nightmare when they actually have to do something. Who is going to make the call to go into action? How will the other countries react when a general from nation X sends soldiers from Y into a fight and some die? The EU is imo way to politically divided to have a unified military segment and have it be actually effective. Imo the EU works fine as a trade union and its population is to attached to a level of autonomy to be much more then that. We are already seeing its cracks with the Euro and that isn't a matter of life and death. | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
Then think about political will being there - look how EU unravels at the first sight of a problem, eg migration or economics. Everyone locks the doors, bars the windows and fends for himself. Common army? | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
What I've read about Pablo Iglesias so far (charismatic neo-communist communitarian who apparently looks up to Hugo Chavez and Venezuela but has no political experience whatsoever) is not exactly giving me any good hope. Then again, if you have to choose between Podemos and the likes of Partido Popular... | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21694 Posts
On July 03 2015 22:55 maartendq wrote: Quick question: what are the bets that we'll see the same charade happen again with Spain if Podemos actually gets elected? What I've read about Pablo Iglesias so far (charismatic neo-communist communitarian who apparently looks up to Hugo Chavez and Venezuela but has no political experience whatsoever) is not exactly giving me any good hope. Then again, if you have to choose between Podemos and the likes of Partido Popular... Depends on how hard Greece crashes and burns. I would expect similar parties throughout the deeper effected area's of Europa are watching this and they can plainly see that Tsipras way is not working at the moment. If the ECB/IMF cave and make significant compromises then they might try forcing a crisis aswell. | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
On July 03 2015 22:18 BeHave wrote: What do you guys think about a joint european military? Inside the german military scene (have to admit it's very small not much discussion etc) it's a topic that is very well received, Especially military personnel thinks highly of this idea because it might give us the chance to get gear that is actually working. Examples for existing cooperations are the german-french brigade or the dutch airborne unit that is basically given to the german fast reaction division (german airborne divison). What interests me the most is the french, dutch and polish opinion on this. In my eyes these 3 countries are the closest allies Germany has and can ever hope for. I think a united approach to self defence would be the next step towards a united europe. The last time we tried it failed pretty hard, i don't think the EU is ready for this. Look at how hard it is for France to have a decent support for the military operation occuring in Africa from the EU : http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/france-seeks-financial-help-from-europe-for-africa-mission-a-939759.html | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
Boom is my guess. Podemos could trigger that shock if Germany is as unyielding against them as it is against Syriza. But Germany can't afford to be as unyielding to Podemos. Hence, they must crush Syriza now so that Spaniards don't dare vote for Podemos. Sad state of affairs. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10716 Posts
Yeah, Germany is important... But Germany wouldn't be able to do jack shit if the other countries would actually disagree or oppose in any serious way. | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
On July 03 2015 23:08 Velr wrote: Why is it allways just Germany? This is just getting ridiculous. Yeah, Germany is important... But Germany wouldn't be able to do jack shit if the other countries would actually disagree or oppose in any serious way. They're the paymaster. They call the shots. Greece is disagreeing - see what happens to it. Papandreou/Berlusconi disagreed - were replaced, summarily. Podemos disagree - you already have people thinking 'oh my god if Podemos win whatever will happen'. Don't be obtuse, it is not so simple to oppose in any meaningful way when you're in a position of weakness. | ||
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Banaora
Germany234 Posts
On July 03 2015 23:08 Velr wrote: Why is it allways just Germany? This is just getting ridiculous. Yeah, Germany is important... But Germany wouldn't be able to do jack shit if the other countries would actually disagree or oppose in any serious way. Exactly, currently there are social democrat governments in Italy and France. They could have supported Greece if they wanted to and there would be a compromise somehow. It is telling that they don't do that. I wonder why. | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
On July 03 2015 23:15 Banaora wrote: Exactly, currently there are social democrat governments in Italy and France. They could have supported Greece if they wanted to and there would be a compromise somehow. It is telling that they don't do that. I wonder why. I would like to bring up this (i post it for the source, even if it's in french sorry : http://www.lemonde.fr/festival/video/2015/07/02/thomas-piketty-ceux-qui-cherchent-le-grexit-sont-de-dangereux-apprentis-sorciers_4668064_4415198.html Basically Piketty said that Hollande should say that he will veto any form of Grexit and that he has to stand firm and stop being weak. I have my idea of why Hollande is doing nothing (because he has no idea of the situation imo) but maybe there are others reasons than that. | ||
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