EPTSince everyone is convinced they are correct, and that should be obvious to everyone else, this leads to the conclusion that some evil outside force must be manipulating everyone against them. You can't blame the jews anymore like you could 80 years ago, Illuminati & Co make you look like a fool, thus you need to default to the classic blaming foreigners, and no one is easier to blame than Germans with their history, plus Germany currently does have a bit of power.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 148
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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11964 Posts
Since everyone is convinced they are correct, and that should be obvious to everyone else, this leads to the conclusion that some evil outside force must be manipulating everyone against them. You can't blame the jews anymore like you could 80 years ago, Illuminati & Co make you look like a fool, thus you need to default to the classic blaming foreigners, and no one is easier to blame than Germans with their history, plus Germany currently does have a bit of power. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10945 Posts
On July 03 2015 23:13 Taguchi wrote: They're the paymaster. They call the shots. Greece is disagreeing - see what happens to it. Papandreou/Berlusconi disagreed - were replaced, summarily. Podemos disagree - you already have people thinking 'oh my god if Podemos win whatever will happen'. Don't be obtuse, it is not so simple to oppose in any meaningful way when you're in a position of weakness. Not even ONE Country is backing greece. Not the Irish, Spaniards, Portugese or Italians or any other country which is, was or could get into trouble. You can't just blame Germany, that Germany doesn't want to just pay for you and is advocating for austerity is actually understandable (not that i think its smart or good), but that you can't even get ONE other country to support a diffrent course is your actual problem. | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
Take Draghi for example: He understands perfectly well the danger the euro is in and is taking extraordinary measures to protect it. And every step of the way, he is opposed by the Bundesbank (in QE, OMT etc). If Draghi was free to act I believe he would never have strangled the Greek economy for these past 5 months, for what would be the point? A worse off economy is better for no one except opposing politicians and Draghi could care less for them. But what would he do if the offer was 'you can have your way on major policy like QE, but help us out with overthrowing these leftists in Greece'. By Tsipras's account, which hasn't been denied as far as I recall, there was a verbal agreement that unfettered liquidity would be provided after a preliminary agreement (Feb 20th agreement), but Draghi reneged on his word. He wouldn't do this on a whim. edit: Your positions simply ignore reality guys. There is a well-defined problem in Greece. The proffered solution didn't work. The numbers don't work out. You have to look into the players' motives when, even though the numbers don't work out, you still can't get a real dialogue going. The simplest possible explanation for Eurogroup's stance is that they wish for regime change - a more far-fetched one, that they want to force Greece out of the EZ. And if you can't see that this is predominantly Germany's position, well, you just haven't been paying attention. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22557 Posts
In the end your right tho, Greece is currently very much alone and I blame the hack job that Tsipras made of the negotiations. If he wanted to achievement meaningful results he needed to make EU citizens sympathize with the Greek people and convince the Eurozone members that he was reliable. Instead of "No, we will not do these reforms" it should have been "We will do these reforms if we must but lets find a better way of reaching the same goal". | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
Related to the above discussion, from yesterday's NYT. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22557 Posts
The gap is still as big as ever. Source (in dutch) edit to fix translation error. | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
On July 03 2015 23:59 Gorsameth wrote: There was also a comment from Dijsselbloem in the Dutch media today that comments from Varoufakis about a deal being in the works are an utter fabrication. The gap is still as big as ever. Source (in dutch) Varoufakis didn't say 'in the works', he said a deal would happen a couple days after the referendum, assuming NO vote. Still bollocks anyway, I don't see the EU not willing to wait a few more weeks and force the issue of Syrizexit or Grexit. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22557 Posts
On July 04 2015 00:14 Taguchi wrote: Varoufakis didn't say 'in the works', he said a deal would happen a couple days after the referendum, assuming NO vote. Still bollocks anyway, I don't see the EU not willing to wait a few more weeks and force the issue of Syrizexit or Grexit. Sorry my mistake from translating his comment to english. | ||
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BeHave
Germany121 Posts
On July 03 2015 23:08 Velr wrote: Why is it allways just Germany? This is just getting ridiculous. Yeah, Germany is important... But Germany wouldn't be able to do jack shit if the other countries would actually disagree or oppose in any serious way. 1. As stated before germany got the money 2.Imo, the difference to france in this matter is, that the german minister of finance dares to decide and has the knowledge to do so. He has no more political ambitions and will do what he sees fit to save what is left of his lifelong work, which is the EURO. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22557 Posts
On July 04 2015 02:48 Sufficiency wrote: What do you think of the likelihood of Belgium broken apart and back to France and the Netherlands? 0 | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
Yet another article relevant to the discussion we had above, although perhaps not specifically about Germany being the devil incarnate (sidenote, I spent my formative years in Munich, 1 through 6 years old, as my parents were teachers in a Greek school there - that was in the 80s. I like ze Germans!). | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
Why not.... | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6313 Posts
Edit: for one Belgium was never part of France. And 2 Belgium and the Netherlands have been developing as 2 very separate cultures ever since the republic got its independence and they did not. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18430 Posts
On July 04 2015 02:51 Taguchi wrote: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece-imf-idUSKCN0PD20120150703 Yet another article relevant to the discussion we had above, although perhaps not specifically about Germany being the devil incarnate (sidenote, I spent my formative years in Munich, 1 through 6 years old, as my parents were teachers in a Greek school there - that was in the 80s. I like ze Germans!). I don't get it. The debt relief and the reforms are unrelated. Reforms are necessary in ANY case. It's just that in addition to reforms, debt relief is needed (and was apparently non-negotiable, which is fucking stupid by Dijsselbloem and Schauble, but also politically inspired: approving debt relief for Greece is political suicide in Germany and Netherlands at the moment). The Greeks aren't voting yes or no on debt relief. They are voting yes or no on accepting the austerity terms, which to be fair is kinda pointless: all the creditors require some form of reforms to be accepted before any kind of debt relief can be considered, so voting "No" is not going to suddenly put debt relief on the table. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22557 Posts
Whats the chance of Quebec joining France? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18430 Posts
The Battle for Greece The Greek story is being framed as a battle between the Greeks and the Germans and thus between spending and austerity. But this frame can’t make sense of the fact that, win or lose, large numbers of Greeks will vote for austerity on Sunday. To understand what’s really going on, listen to this remarkable interview between NPR’s Robin Young and Nikolalos Voglis, a restaurant owner in Athens. The interview begins with a discussion of the crisis. No one has cash or credit and Voglis’s restaurant is basically shuttered. Young then asks Voglis how he will vote on Sunday and he replies, “Definitely, Yes.” Young is surprised, she tries to clarify, you will vote, “even for more austerity?” “That’s right,” he replies. Following the conventional frame, Young finds this difficult to understand and she pushes back against Voglis with all the conventional arguments. She quotes Paul Krugman saying that the problem isn’t really Greece’s doing, that the IMF and EU are being too tough on Greece, that Greece has done a lot of cutting already and so on. Voglis responds: We are on the right track but unfortunately the job wasn’t completed. We are a country in the European Community which has the biggest public sector in Europe. And all of us in the private sector spend millions to support the situation. So the only way that Greece can become a true Western country…is to make these reforms. …Look the main problem in this country is the public sector. There is no other problem. Entrepreneurs here are very, very competitive. We have to let this thing, this monster that we call the public sector, it has to go, it has to finish. This is the main issue. Many Greeks are sick and tired of the bloated public sector and its corruption, inefficiency and waste. In this frame, the Greek story is not fundamentally about Greeks versus Germans it’s about the Greek people versus their government–the Germans have simply been the vehicle that has brought the Greeks to their kairotic moment. The Greeks want normalcy, as the Poles did after communism. If the Yes vote wins on Sunday it will be the Greeks voting not just against the current administration but against the entire state apparatus. Source: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/07/the-battle-for-greece.html | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
The problem is that Quebec is distant geographically from France. Belgium is right by the doors. Additionally, despite all thr cries of Quebec separation movements, Quebec is not a dominant factor in Canadian national politics - different from the Belgian split which is more 50-50. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
For one, the party that won the most recent federal elections (NV.A, technically a flemish nationalist and separatist party) decided to bury its separatist ambitions in order to be able to form a government. Secondly, only a minority actually wants Belgium to split; the aforementioned party was elected because of its socio-economic ideas, which are right-wing. There is very little chance that France would absorb Wallonia and that the Netherlands would absorb Flanders. Neither party wants that. However, if the country broke up, Wallonia would turn into Greece 2.0 pretty much instantly: 80 per cent of Belgian exports is done by Flemish companies, and Wallonia receives anywhere between 8 and 10 billion euros in fiscal transfers from Flanders every year. Additionally, there's the problem that no-one really knows what to do with Brussels in the event a split does happen. It's on Flemish territory but the majority speaks French. Bluntly put, Flanders would love the economic activity the city provides, but does not want the poverty and chaos (Brussels has no less than 19 communes, each with their own Mayor, all of them from Wallonian political parties). | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
Does France want that? - No Do the Netherlands want it? - No Does anyone in Belgium want it? - No (if they want anything, it is independence, but if they could only choose an overlord, they would certainly stick with Belgium then NED/FRA) Would anyone else in Europe support it? - No | ||
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