|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On August 31 2018 00:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2018 22:50 Plansix wrote:On August 30 2018 08:58 Gorsameth wrote:On August 30 2018 07:28 pmh wrote:
We are running full speed towards something horrible. Everyone so devided,so much hate and so little understanding for the other side.
First time in my life that I have seen it this bad, both in the usa as well as in Europe. World is going in wrong direction. Are we not supposed to make progress and become better people all the time? It is difficult to remain optimistic for this century of human development. Progress is a pendulum that swing both ways. In general it slowly pulls towards progress but from time to time there is a reaction to the opposite side. Although I agree with this, I dislike the framing of pendulum. It gives the impression that progress is a force of nature, rather than a product of hard work by people. Progress is a fight against the status quo, just like regression. Forward movement to a more just and enlighten society is not the nature course or guaranteed. One of the reasons these far right groups have gotten a foothold is because the previous generation become complacent. Just to clarify what that means in your picture: progress is the opposite of conservativism. This is the original left-right divide. The conservative right, who defend the church, the king, the existing rights, or even reactionaries who want more of such principles vs the left, who enivision "a more just order" (with differentiations of what "just" means). As long as the liberals and the socialists are divided, or even worse, trying to be conservatives on issues that they believe are "historic achievments", that long the conservatives will run rampant.
Yes. Conservatism, by its very name, is an opposition to change in any form. They wish to retain the status quo and often reverse previous societal changes. One of the shortcomings of our parent’s generation is accepting the myth that “progress” is natural and regression is impossible. Accepting that humanity as a whole is on some liner path to the future that moves forward at different speeds, propelled by nothing but faith in human goodness.
There were people who believed my generation would be the first “post racism” generation. That all the racists from the civil rights movement would die off and we would be past it. They never considered that their own generation might have some deep seeded racism, which we are dealing with right now. I am sure EU countries have all made the same mistake in some way or another. And now people are seeing it in full force, with citizens doing the Nazi salute in Germany and not being arrested for it. People are right to be worried, it is a clear sign things have changed for the worse. But unlike the previous generation that dealt with Nazi, I doubt folks are going to just hope no one supports them. At least I hope that is the case.
|
I'm pretty Conservative regarding my values.
They just don't interfere with human and humane decency.
Many conservatives don't actually live by the values they proclaim to have. E.g. American Christians seem to have a problem with compassion,or equal rights for everyone.
Which are core values of Christianity. Everyone is equal before God and such.
Fuck all do they adhere to what they proclaim.
So I would rather say that Conservative has been hijacked by fundamentalists that mostly are against progress on the equality front. It being gender, racial, religious.
People still being allowed to do the nazi salute is outrageous but very much in line of what I am used to from our police force and interior ministers.
No surprise here.
|
Conservatives can have different meanings. For instance the party in power in UK is called The Conservative Party, but what they advocate on a lot of issues is a change from the status quo. Hoe conservatives is used in USA is a different matter.
|
On August 31 2018 00:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2018 00:24 Big J wrote:On August 30 2018 22:50 Plansix wrote:On August 30 2018 08:58 Gorsameth wrote:On August 30 2018 07:28 pmh wrote:
We are running full speed towards something horrible. Everyone so devided,so much hate and so little understanding for the other side.
First time in my life that I have seen it this bad, both in the usa as well as in Europe. World is going in wrong direction. Are we not supposed to make progress and become better people all the time? It is difficult to remain optimistic for this century of human development. Progress is a pendulum that swing both ways. In general it slowly pulls towards progress but from time to time there is a reaction to the opposite side. Although I agree with this, I dislike the framing of pendulum. It gives the impression that progress is a force of nature, rather than a product of hard work by people. Progress is a fight against the status quo, just like regression. Forward movement to a more just and enlighten society is not the nature course or guaranteed. One of the reasons these far right groups have gotten a foothold is because the previous generation become complacent. Just to clarify what that means in your picture: progress is the opposite of conservativism. This is the original left-right divide. The conservative right, who defend the church, the king, the existing rights, or even reactionaries who want more of such principles vs the left, who enivision "a more just order" (with differentiations of what "just" means). As long as the liberals and the socialists are divided, or even worse, trying to be conservatives on issues that they believe are "historic achievments", that long the conservatives will run rampant. Yes. Conservatism, by its very name, is an opposition to change in any form. They wish to retain the status quo and often reverse previous societal changes. One of the shortcomings of our parent’s generation is accepting the myth that “progress” is natural and regression is impossible. Accepting that humanity as a whole is on some liner path to the future that moves forward at different speeds, propelled by nothing but faith in human goodness. There were people who believed my generation would be the first “post racism” generation. That all the racists from the civil rights movement would die off and we would be past it. They never considered that their own generation might have some deep seeded racism, which we are dealing with right now. I am sure EU countries have all made the same mistake in some way or another. And now people are seeing it in full force, with citizens doing the Nazi salute in Germany and not being arrested for it. People are right to be worried, it is a clear sign things have changed for the worse. But unlike the previous generation that dealt with Nazi, I doubt folks are going to just hope no one supports them. At least I hope that is the case.
I fully agree with your point here. I just wanted to clarify the context, because conservativism has a lot of meanings nowadays. Just of the top of my head:
Conservativism as in being against change or even regressive. (the oldschool meaning that we use here)
Conservativism as systematically being a democratic-liberal faction, but inside those decision processes taking a "conservative stance" (pro religion, pro family values, against gay rights, against abortion etc.)
Conservativism as in being a middle movement (the type of integrative movement e.g. the German CDU seems to be).
Since noone ever clarifies that, I usually use the first one just like you do here, because that it is the literal meaning of the word.
|
On August 30 2018 02:20 Plansix wrote:
It seems opportunistic by the far right groups, rallying around a stabbing with little information, no one in custody and no real cause for the level of outrage being shown. Considering the organization happened on social media, it is not surprising the local police were caught flat footed. There are so many ways for these groups to organize and no one, not even the services themselves, has the ability to watch them all.
Maybe just an explanation since you are probably not fully informed: What you say is correct for the riots rally on the first day.
The next day there was another rally by (far) right groups which was quite publicly announced, and a smaller counter-rally. The police force in place was seemingly still understaffed and kept the two rallies separated just by one street instead of having them farther apart. Later that day some more "dedicated" groups from the right-wing rally broke off from the main part and went "hunting" for mostly anyone whom they perceived as worthy targets (so probably mostly anyone not clearly aligned to their rally). There were reports from journalists who said that the police was not prepared for this and failed to protect them at several places.
Such a failure on the second day is no acceptable if you ask me.
|
Conservatism in the European context is very unrelated to the idea of "opposing change" ("We must all obey the great law of change. It is the most powerful law of nature, and the means perhaps of its conservation."). Conservatives in Europe have historically been quite significant reformers and it makes little sense to compare them to parties of the same name in the US.
European conservatism is also quite communitarian and influenced by Catholic social teaching, and the rabid Evangelical prosperity stuff is completely absent.
|
On August 31 2018 06:37 Nyxisto wrote:
Conservatism in the European context is very unrelated to the idea of "opposing change" ("We must all obey the great law of change. It is the most powerful law of nature, and the means perhaps of its conservation.").
Yeah, the conservative progression, where the god-sent conservative leaders choose when to implement what change.
Needless to say that this is just another form of centrally planned society that is eventually succeeded by a reformation that catches up to the real needs of society and implements all of what the conservatives didn't want, or that quickly distorts towards fascism to keep itself alive.
The inferiority of Burke's philosophy can be seen just 10 years after his death when superior French armies, not bound by traditions in warfare, politics or economics, gloriously marched through all of europe and sparked the flames of freedom everywhere.
|
Since Conservatism really depends on the local context, I think it's hard to generalize what european conservatism. In Portugal conservatism has been associated first concentration of power around the monarchy and then with backward catholic principles. Very few would label themselves conservatives in Portugal after we've had a 60 year conservative authocratic regime in the 20th century.
The irony is that since we've had a hard-left revolution in 74 the tables have changed. Today, the most conservative party is actually the communist party - in recent years they've mixed nationalism with communism, they've advocated leaving the EU, NATO and the Euro and the whole message is filled with longing for the good ol' days of the 74 revolution when a third of the economy was nationalized. Their base is essentially 60+, who are now the only ones who remember those days.
|
On August 31 2018 19:53 warding wrote:
Since Conservatism really depends on the local context, I think it's hard to generalize what european conservatism. In Portugal conservatism has been associated first concentration of power around the monarchy and then with backward catholic principles. Very few would label themselves conservatives in Portugal after we've had a 60 year conservative authocratic regime in the 20th century.
The irony is that since we've had a hard-left revolution in 74 the tables have changed. Today, the most conservative party is actually the communist party - in recent years they've mixed nationalism with communism, they've advocated leaving the EU, NATO and the Euro and the whole message is filled with longing for the good ol' days of the 74 revolution when a third of the economy was nationalized. Their base is essentially 60+, who are now the only ones who remember those days.
I think you won't be suprised, but the same mechanism works here in Ukraine also (apart from communist being banned after recent revolution). And their supporters are 60+ people who still lives in USSR by their minds. I don't wanna old people who unable to adapt to a modern views/world to have a power over me. Outdated view is a recipe for a mess, 60+ population has mostly no idea what modern young people needs.
So in my mind european conservatism is something "for everything good and old, against everything new and bad", "because when I was young the sun was brighter and the grass was greener!". The difference comes with a country, eventually we'll have 50 shades European of conservatism, but non of those would work to gain younger voters/supporters.
|
Invading Syria was a mistake, pushing political agendas to far east friends was a mistake. It will drastically change EU's labor force and population, I don't see Europe surviving another 100 years with this much fortune and peace. War on Terror was also a mistake but it didn't hurt EU as Syria did if you ask me. European natives will try to react all of these changes under the banners of racism, what else you expect? People love to change, but hate it when it's forced.
|
No, it will not drastically change Europe's labour force or population. Europe has 500 million people, demographically Europe is going to shrink somewhat, but stay largely the way it does now, that's not actually in question. Also, European natives are by and large not uniting under any banner, and definitely not under any racist one. That's a shrill minority, and I obviously expect Europeans to react to all of these changes in a civilised manner as we're not a continent solely consisting of idiots and racists.
I also don't even understand what the last sentence is supposed to mean, change is almost ever instantiated by some force beyond individual choice.
|
On September 02 2018 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:
No, it will not drastically change Europe's labour force or population. Europe has 500 million people, demographically Europe is going to shrink somewhat, but stay largely the way it does now, that's not actually in question. Also, European natives are by and large not uniting under any banner, and definitely not under any racist one. That's a shrill minority, and I obviously expect Europeans to react to all of these changes in a civilised manner as we're not a continent solely consisting of idiots and racists.
I also don't even understand what the last sentence is supposed to mean, change is almost ever instantiated by some force beyond individual choice.
Europe does have 500 million people but not all of them are accepting hoards of doctors, lawyers, and scientists from the 3rd world. Now how about western European countries? Is France seeing a drastic change? How about Belgium? Sweden? Germany? England? The Netherlands? Austria? Norway? Europe is swinging right and pretty quickly too. Just like in the US, its a growing quiet minority that have had enough of the crime and leftist lunacy.
|
Name one government in Europe that is run by those who you call leftist.
|
On September 03 2018 05:27 nitram wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2018 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:
No, it will not drastically change Europe's labour force or population. Europe has 500 million people, demographically Europe is going to shrink somewhat, but stay largely the way it does now, that's not actually in question. Also, European natives are by and large not uniting under any banner, and definitely not under any racist one. That's a shrill minority, and I obviously expect Europeans to react to all of these changes in a civilised manner as we're not a continent solely consisting of idiots and racists.
I also don't even understand what the last sentence is supposed to mean, change is almost ever instantiated by some force beyond individual choice. Europe does have 500 million people but not all of them are accepting hoards of doctors, lawyers, and scientists from the 3rd world. Now how about western European countries? Is France seeing a drastic change? How about Belgium? Sweden? Germany? England? The Netherlands? Austria? Norway? Europe is swinging right and pretty quickly too. Just like in the US, its a growing quiet minority that have had enough of the crime and leftist lunacy.
responding to leftist lunacy with rightist lunacy doesn't seem like an improvement. it's just replacing one lunacy with another.
also, I doubt it's just like in the US; since in the US immigrants commit less crime than the native population, so complaining about crime from immigrants wouldn't make sense. whereas in Europe, due to europe's very low crime rates, the rates for immigrants are probably higher (just a guess though, anybody have good data on that?)
|
On September 03 2018 05:27 nitram wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2018 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:
No, it will not drastically change Europe's labour force or population. Europe has 500 million people, demographically Europe is going to shrink somewhat, but stay largely the way it does now, that's not actually in question. Also, European natives are by and large not uniting under any banner, and definitely not under any racist one. That's a shrill minority, and I obviously expect Europeans to react to all of these changes in a civilised manner as we're not a continent solely consisting of idiots and racists.
I also don't even understand what the last sentence is supposed to mean, change is almost ever instantiated by some force beyond individual choice. Europe does have 500 million people but not all of them are accepting hoards of doctors, lawyers, and scientists from the 3rd world. Now how about western European countries? Is France seeing a drastic change? How about Belgium? Sweden? Germany? England? The Netherlands? Austria? Norway? Europe is swinging right and pretty quickly too. Just like in the US, its a growing quiet minority that have had enough of the crime and leftist lunacy.
Referring to immigrants has hordes, vague ramblings about leftist lunacy, yes we've got a North American user in the thread again. Europe isn't going anywhere. The continent might be more polarised and there is an angry political minority, but they have no answers and are the political equivalent of an appendix. Europe is more liberal than it was 30 years ago, and it will be open and liberal in generations to come. One only needs to look at Europe's young population to see that right-wing extremism has no future. It's a cry on the deathbed.
|
On September 03 2018 05:53 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2018 05:27 nitram wrote:On September 02 2018 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:
No, it will not drastically change Europe's labour force or population. Europe has 500 million people, demographically Europe is going to shrink somewhat, but stay largely the way it does now, that's not actually in question. Also, European natives are by and large not uniting under any banner, and definitely not under any racist one. That's a shrill minority, and I obviously expect Europeans to react to all of these changes in a civilised manner as we're not a continent solely consisting of idiots and racists.
I also don't even understand what the last sentence is supposed to mean, change is almost ever instantiated by some force beyond individual choice. Europe does have 500 million people but not all of them are accepting hoards of doctors, lawyers, and scientists from the 3rd world. Now how about western European countries? Is France seeing a drastic change? How about Belgium? Sweden? Germany? England? The Netherlands? Austria? Norway? Europe is swinging right and pretty quickly too. Just like in the US, its a growing quiet minority that have had enough of the crime and leftist lunacy. responding to leftist lunacy with rightist lunacy doesn't seem like an improvement. it's just replacing one lunacy with another. also, I doubt it's just like in the US; since in the US immigrants commit less crime than the native population, so complaining about crime from immigrants wouldn't make sense. whereas in Europe, due to europe's very low crime rates, the rates for immigrants are probably higher (just a guess though, anybody have good data on that?)
Do you want data on immigrants or refugees? You are entirely lacking the precision in wording needed to properly discuss the issues Europe is facing. Regardless, look up the report by Statistics Denmark - they have all the data you are looking for.
|
On September 03 2018 06:01 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2018 05:27 nitram wrote:On September 02 2018 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:
No, it will not drastically change Europe's labour force or population. Europe has 500 million people, demographically Europe is going to shrink somewhat, but stay largely the way it does now, that's not actually in question. Also, European natives are by and large not uniting under any banner, and definitely not under any racist one. That's a shrill minority, and I obviously expect Europeans to react to all of these changes in a civilised manner as we're not a continent solely consisting of idiots and racists.
I also don't even understand what the last sentence is supposed to mean, change is almost ever instantiated by some force beyond individual choice. Europe does have 500 million people but not all of them are accepting hoards of doctors, lawyers, and scientists from the 3rd world. Now how about western European countries? Is France seeing a drastic change? How about Belgium? Sweden? Germany? England? The Netherlands? Austria? Norway? Europe is swinging right and pretty quickly too. Just like in the US, its a growing quiet minority that have had enough of the crime and leftist lunacy. Referring to immigrants has hordes, vague ramblings about leftist lunacy, yes we've got a North American user in the thread again. Europe isn't going anywhere. The continent might be more polarised and there is an angry political minority, but they have no answers and are the political equivalent of an appendix. Europe is more liberal than it was 30 years ago, and it will be open and liberal in generations to come. One only needs to look at Europe's young population to see that right-wing extremism has no future. It's a cry on the deathbed.
Yeah, Europe will be more liberal... is that why eastern Europe looks at the self destructive nature of western European liberal policies and wants no part of it? Is that why conservative parties are growing all through out Europe? Is that why Italy has swung to the right? Look at this thread, every time someone mentions something conservative, it gets responded and reworded as something far right which has nasty undertones. There are far more people that are conservative then you would like to think. Just wait till election time when ones vote is anonymous.
|
On September 03 2018 05:27 nitram wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2018 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:
No, it will not drastically change Europe's labour force or population. Europe has 500 million people, demographically Europe is going to shrink somewhat, but stay largely the way it does now, that's not actually in question. Also, European natives are by and large not uniting under any banner, and definitely not under any racist one. That's a shrill minority, and I obviously expect Europeans to react to all of these changes in a civilised manner as we're not a continent solely consisting of idiots and racists.
I also don't even understand what the last sentence is supposed to mean, change is almost ever instantiated by some force beyond individual choice. Europe does have 500 million people but not all of them are accepting hoards of doctors, lawyers, and scientists from the 3rd world. Now how about western European countries? Is France seeing a drastic change? How about Belgium? Sweden? Germany? England? The Netherlands? Austria? Norway? Europe is swinging right and pretty quickly too. Just like in the US, its a growing quiet minority that have had enough of the crime and leftist lunacy.
Is any of this rooted in reality at all or is it just some vague sense that you have?
|
On September 03 2018 16:50 nitram wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2018 06:01 Nyxisto wrote:On September 03 2018 05:27 nitram wrote:On September 02 2018 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:
No, it will not drastically change Europe's labour force or population. Europe has 500 million people, demographically Europe is going to shrink somewhat, but stay largely the way it does now, that's not actually in question. Also, European natives are by and large not uniting under any banner, and definitely not under any racist one. That's a shrill minority, and I obviously expect Europeans to react to all of these changes in a civilised manner as we're not a continent solely consisting of idiots and racists.
I also don't even understand what the last sentence is supposed to mean, change is almost ever instantiated by some force beyond individual choice. Europe does have 500 million people but not all of them are accepting hoards of doctors, lawyers, and scientists from the 3rd world. Now how about western European countries? Is France seeing a drastic change? How about Belgium? Sweden? Germany? England? The Netherlands? Austria? Norway? Europe is swinging right and pretty quickly too. Just like in the US, its a growing quiet minority that have had enough of the crime and leftist lunacy. Referring to immigrants has hordes, vague ramblings about leftist lunacy, yes we've got a North American user in the thread again. Europe isn't going anywhere. The continent might be more polarised and there is an angry political minority, but they have no answers and are the political equivalent of an appendix. Europe is more liberal than it was 30 years ago, and it will be open and liberal in generations to come. One only needs to look at Europe's young population to see that right-wing extremism has no future. It's a cry on the deathbed. Yeah, Europe will be more liberal... is that why eastern Europe looks at the self destructive nature of western European liberal policies and wants no part of it? Is that why conservative parties are growing all through out Europe? Is that why Italy has swung to the right? Look at this thread, every time someone mentions something conservative, it gets responded and reworded as something far right which has nasty undertones. There are far more people that are conservative then you would like to think. Just wait till election time when ones vote is anonymous.
What part of those politics is self-destructive? The liberals have achieved lesser taxation of enterprises, lesser taxation of high incomes, the abolishment of almost all wealth taxes, a common market, a common currency, privatization of many profitable state enterprises etc.
And apart from the the common market, which is currently not in place due to bordercontrols, the trend is pointing towards more and more of those politics. I am very much inclined to say that those who call themselves liberals are winning on every front. The right-wing socialists/nationalists/conservatives (whatever you want to call them) might be on the rise, but they are easily bought and integrated, since they completely lack the intellectual resources of the bourgeoisie or the (formerly present) broad organization structures of the democratic socialists.
Take Austria as an example, it took an inner circle of roughly 10 dedicated guys and girls from the young conservatives around Mr. Kurz (someone who regularily calls himself a liberal) to overthrow the conservative party and to integrate the far-right into a government that is almost exclusively working on reducing taxes for the rich, deregulating working standards and making the import of cheap labor easier (there is a huge campaign going on that Austria is lacking 142.000 skilled employees).
On the other side, the "anti-migration" measures are basically that refugees and people applying for refugee status may not be allowed to work anymore (which concerns 5000 people) and that family payments may be indexed according to local standards (which is pretty much symbolic, because everything that gets saved for paying eastern european workers less goes to bureaucracy to manage the measure and and Swiss/Luxembourg children, which then receive more money). And that instead of paying refugees social insurances we are paying Erdogan and possibly others to buy Russian weapon systems.
The numbers are speaking quite a clear language where the true aims of these governments are. The anti-migration issue, despite topping all the newspapers, is hardly of any concern to the "liberal" elites. There is absolutly no trend that anything will change on any front, we may just return from taking in refugees back to sending people to foreign countries to hire them in masses for unregulated, short time labor contracts. The effects are the same.
I believe that is why they are calling themselves liberals and conservatives at the same time. Like an asteroid on a collision course they won't stop until the nationalists and the socialists unite once again to truely try and tackle issues of social/working policies as well as what those liberal elites and their newspapers have used as an excuse up to then (migration, jews, France, socialists...).
|
Woah there. Let's go but by bit:
On September 03 2018 16:50 nitram wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2018 06:01 Nyxisto wrote:On September 03 2018 05:27 nitram wrote:On September 02 2018 04:35 Nyxisto wrote:
No, it will not drastically change Europe's labour force or population. Europe has 500 million people, demographically Europe is going to shrink somewhat, but stay largely the way it does now, that's not actually in question. Also, European natives are by and large not uniting under any banner, and definitely not under any racist one. That's a shrill minority, and I obviously expect Europeans to react to all of these changes in a civilised manner as we're not a continent solely consisting of idiots and racists.
I also don't even understand what the last sentence is supposed to mean, change is almost ever instantiated by some force beyond individual choice. Europe does have 500 million people but not all of them are accepting hoards of doctors, lawyers, and scientists from the 3rd world. Now how about western European countries? Is France seeing a drastic change? How about Belgium? Sweden? Germany? England? The Netherlands? Austria? Norway? Europe is swinging right and pretty quickly too. Just like in the US, its a growing quiet minority that have had enough of the crime and leftist lunacy. Referring to immigrants has hordes, vague ramblings about leftist lunacy, yes we've got a North American user in the thread again. Europe isn't going anywhere. The continent might be more polarised and there is an angry political minority, but they have no answers and are the political equivalent of an appendix. Europe is more liberal than it was 30 years ago, and it will be open and liberal in generations to come. One only needs to look at Europe's young population to see that right-wing extremism has no future. It's a cry on the deathbed. Yeah, Europe will be more liberal... is that why eastern Europe looks at the self destructive nature of western European liberal policies
Explain what these self-destructive tendencies are, please?
and wants no part of it? Is that why conservative parties are growing all through out Europe?
They aren't really. The CDU in Germany, PP in Spain, Republicans in France, VVD in Netherlands and Tories in England have all been slowly losing ground over the last 15 years or so, after bumping up to the peak of their power in the early 2000s. If you mean the far right, the only country where its recent gains are new is in Germany. The PVV in Netherlands is no bigger now than the LPF was in 2002. UKIP mostly imploded. FN in France is no bigger than it was in 2002. I'd even argue that the sentiment is no bigger than it was in the 70s, it's just that the political outlet is now accepted. Austria voted for Jorg Haider in 1999...
If what you're trying to say is that the shift to the right 20 years ago was a signal that the left was dead, I'd say the reverse is more likely true, with them slowly rallying: podemos is now in the coalition in Spain, Syriza is governing (albeit hobbled) in Greece, labour is a viable political opposition in the UK, and I'd say that even in less clear elections, the left started a bit of a comeback (groen links had their largest political victory in the Netherlands since their founding).
As for Eastern Europe, I don't really see a large shift there either. I do not much like how their institutions are systematically weakened by corrupt opportunists, but looking at the countries not in the EU, I'd argue that being a member of the EU is actually having a stabilizing effect, with even Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary having a more stable and successful democracy than their despotic neighbors further east.
Is that why Italy has swung to the right?
The m5s is pretty bad, but not right-wing. Them teaming up with Lega is an awful idea, but generally speaking, Italy probably voted less right-wing than in the age of Berlusconi. It's just that their government has been crap for so long that nobody there even remembers what functional institutions look like.
Look at this thread, every time someone mentions something conservative, it gets responded and reworded as something far right which has nasty undertones. There are far more people that are conservative then you would like to think. Just wait till election time when ones vote is anonymous.
Examples please, chicken little.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
