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On April 22 2015 00:00 WhiteDog wrote: It's not racist to say the south problem is their corruption ... and the north has great growth because they are hard workers ? That's basically Gobineau's level, minus intelligence. You are basically saying the south is "culturally" inferior economically - they spend more, work less, doesn't respect rule, etc.
Even if he had literally said that, which he has not, it's probably not fair to throw him into one group with the guy who practically invented race theory. Every time someone makes a reasonable argument you have no response to you simply scream 'bullshit' or racist, that's just no way to discuss something.
One index that tends to measure these things is the Ease of doing business index and although obviously flawed because it's very 'pro-business' has been linked to strong economic growth to countries which perform high on it. Italy, Spain and Greece are continuously not doing very good in that regard. And if someone says that this has to do with the lack of a well functioning bureaucracy and a low corruption state (partially rooted in cultural preferences for the family etc..) I don't see how that is racist.
problem is identifying some sort of essentialist culture as the cause of that situation, instead of institutional and developmental.
no culture came into being wholly formed as they are today, would be a mistake to focus on national level cultural identities rather than the processes of cultural formation and change. institutions do play a part in that.
He is not saying that those factors DEFINE those countries, or their cultures.
What he is saying is that those countries have these factors in common, and those common factors lead to a problem that they also share.
If you dislike the word culture that much, than take it out of the argument, and say that those countries share some common traits that lead to economic problems. Can that point really be argued against?
The reason people use the term "Southern european countries" vs "Northern european countries" is that it is much shorter than counting of every single country every time you mention them, especially since the problem is quite similar in all of them.
And i honestly don't see how exiting the euro would help greece (or other countries, by extension). Yes, they get to devalue the Drachme as much as they want. How does that help? Without structural reforms, the same problems will continue to exist. Devaluing your currency to deal with debt only helps if that debt is actually noted in your own currency. Which is usually a minority of your debt, usually that you owe to your own population in the form of government bonds. No external investor with half a brain will lend you money noted in a currency you can devalue at will.
Those kinds of money games are usually superficial windowdressing, and i can't see how they will help if a countries government continues to spend more money than it can afford to and accumulates more debt than its economy can sustain. If you don't fix that problem (And i have honestly no good idea how to do that without it hurting the population a lot), you will at some point reach a default where you can no longer pay your debts. Which usually has a lot of bad effects, but might be unavoidable. That is the sad result of decades of mismanagement. And there is no easy way to avoid it.
If you want people to keep on lending you money, you have to convince them that that is worth their risk. A lot of the solutions for greece seem to be "Just give us more money forever", and demonizing people who say "Maybe we shouldn't give them more money forever"
If someone asks "why is the Silicon Valley in the US and not in Germany?" and I say that economics aside it has probably a lot to do with the American attitude towards risk-taking, entrepreneurship, technology and privacy, I'm analysing along racial lines? Countries are simply culturally different and it affects how the economy looks, too. I don't know why that would be a wrong way to look at things.
On April 21 2015 23:09 maartendq wrote: However since the European Union is a union of countries whose trade paradigm is "market economy", it is in everyone's best interest that each country has a functional state and economy that can compete both internally with member states and externally as part of a large trading block with the US, Russia, China or whoever else. If they no longer want to "play", they have to leave the union, but they can also no longer expect other countries to foot their bill or help them out either. I personally doubt they'd be better off that way.
they cant play by the rules, you simply cant bring all europe countrys to the same level of economic power. i think everybody knows this now in hindsight, some knew before.
and of course its the best for greece to leave the euro, but then all creditors lose their money and thats why the EU is trying so hard to not let it happen. and not because they want to help greece to reform their policies.
and now its even more funny, cause after spending 100 of billions, they will probably still leave and the whole money is GONE.
it will take a moment for everyone to come to term with losing that money, but then it will be business as usual, we saw this with Argentina, everybody said they will never get a credit after they ve gone bankrupt, but in reality credit was not a problem afterwards.
On April 22 2015 00:57 Nyxisto wrote: If someone asks "why is the Silicon Valley in the US and not in Germany?" and I say that economics aside it has probably a lot to do with the American attitude towards risk-taking, entrepreneurship, technology and privacy, I'm analysing along racial lines? Countries are simply culturally different and it affects how the economy looks, too. I don't know why that would be a wrong way to look at things.
yeah but you are not saying it in a negative context what people in europe say is:
the hard working north has to pay the bills for the not working south. you lazy people start working harder, so we dont have to pay your bills.
that is a common thought in the rich europe states - its also how the media spins the whole thing greece drags germany down - cause they are lazy fucks - not like germans. -> which is racist.
so if someone argues along the lines of cultural south vs cultural north - this is what everybody hears. but it totally negates the fact how the currency union was created
NOBODY forced germany into a currency union and therefor into a dependency on these countrys, there were enough people who explicitly WARNED exactly about what happens now. italy, spain, portugal all these countrys never lied about their economic power, what they can do and what not.
and instead of just accepting that this experiment failed in some essential parts, they try now to blame someone they blame culture.
NPR had a great podcast episode on southern Italy and how culture holds back its economy not too long ago:
Episode 400: What Two Pasta Factories Tell Us About The Italian Economy
A decade ago, the Barilla pasta factory in Foggia, Italy, had a big problem with people skipping work. The absentee rate was around 10 percent.
People called in sick all the time, typically on Mondays, or on days when there was a big soccer game.
Foggia is in southern Italy. Barilla's big factory in northern Italy had a much lower absentee rate. This is not surprising; there's a huge economic gap between southern and northern Italy. It's like two different countries.
Barilla execs told Nicola Calandrea, the manager of the Foggia plant, that they would close the factory unless he brought the absenteeism rate down.
Calandrea decided that to save the factory, he had to change the culture. On today's show, we visit the factory and hear how Calandrea made it work.
On April 22 2015 00:57 Nyxisto wrote: If someone asks "why is the Silicon Valley in the US and not in Germany?" and I say that economics aside it has probably a lot to do with the American attitude towards risk-taking, entrepreneurship, technology and privacy, I'm analysing along racial lines? Countries are simply culturally different and it affects how the economy looks, too. I don't know why that would be a wrong way to look at things.
Wow really ? Sure culture can play a role in economy that's a fact. But don't empty his comments of all that cause problem : He imply that Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece have a common culture (false), and that this common culture is inferior economically (false) and more prone to corruption (false ?). Let me take a relevant exemple : Sarkozy (previous french president) said in a speech in Dakar that "the african man has not entered in history" and that "the problem of Africa is that it lives in a nostalgia for a lost paradise of enfancy". That's the same logic (africa has a united culture and is culturally inferior - "not entered in history"), and that's racist.
On April 21 2015 04:10 WhiteDog wrote: By the way there is a pretty good discussion between varouflakis and stiglitz on the euro zone. I recommend watching it.
Just finished this. Basically they are saying, "we wanted to centralize, but did it wrong. Its too bad, it would be better to do even more centralizing. Centralize. Failing that, we must decentralize, and then set up for a better centralization."
Episode 400: What Two Pasta Factories Tell Us About The Italian Economy
A decade ago, the Barilla pasta factory in Foggia, Italy, had a big problem with people skipping work. The absentee rate was around 10 percent.
People called in sick all the time, typically on Mondays, or on days when there was a big soccer game.
Foggia is in southern Italy. Barilla's big factory in northern Italy had a much lower absentee rate. This is not surprising; there's a huge economic gap between southern and northern Italy. It's like two different countries.
Barilla execs told Nicola Calandrea, the manager of the Foggia plant, that they would close the factory unless he brought the absenteeism rate down.
Calandrea decided that to save the factory, he had to change the culture. On today's show, we visit the factory and hear how Calandrea made it work.
Explain me why the south has a different culture than the north of Italy ? Are you implying the south of italy is closer to Greece from a cultural standpoint than from the north of Italy ?
Corruption has a lot to do with lack of a fiable justice system, a lack of public infrastructure and poverty problems - it becomes a culture afterwards, as a response to a situation crystallized in repeated practices. Why do you think that corruption and drug appeared in Harlem in the 80s and 90s ? Do you think it is a cultural problem ? Cultural interpretations are always racist.
On April 21 2015 04:10 WhiteDog wrote: By the way there is a pretty good discussion between varouflakis and stiglitz on the euro zone. I recommend watching it.
Just finished this. Basically they are saying, "we wanted to centralize, but did it wrong. Its too bad, it would be better to do even more centralizing. Centralize. Failing that, we must decentralize, and then set up for a better centralization."
On April 22 2015 00:00 WhiteDog wrote: It's not racist to say the south problem is their corruption ... and the north has great growth because they are hard workers ? That's basically Gobineau's level, minus intelligence. You are basically saying the south is "culturally" inferior economically - they spend more, work less, doesn't respect rule, etc.
Even if he had literally said that, which he has not, it's probably not fair to throw him into one group with the guy who practically invented race theory. Every time someone makes a reasonable argument you have no response to you simply scream 'bullshit' or racist, that's just no way to discuss something.
One index that tends to measure these things is the Ease of doing business index and although obviously flawed because it's very 'pro-business' has been linked to strong economic growth to countries which perform high on it. Italy, Spain and Greece are continuously not doing very good in that regard. And if someone says that this has to do with the lack of a well functioning bureaucracy and a low corruption state (partially rooted in cultural preferences for the family etc..) I don't see how that is racist.
Finland is very high in that index. Finland is in deep shit right now.
Ireland is very high in that index. Ireland still is in deep shit now.
The entire eurozone, frankly, is pretty high in that index as a bloc. The entire eurozone is in deep shit right now. Krugman mentions that Europe's recovery from the 2008 crisis has been *worse* than Europe's recovery from the 1929 crisis. This is unbelievable and Germany and the euro are right at the center of the problem - and completely unwilling to do anything about it.
Greece has huge issues, sure, much more than other countries. But so many countries, with different circumstances each, have big problems and the proposed solution seems to be 'competitiveness', ie beggar thy neighbor policies that also happen to beggar your own people. Somehow this is mainstream thinking these days and people objecting are amateurs, to be laughed at and so on. It'd be funny if it weren't so damn sad.
On April 22 2015 00:57 Nyxisto wrote: If someone asks "why is the Silicon Valley in the US and not in Germany?" and I say that economics aside it has probably a lot to do with the American attitude towards risk-taking, entrepreneurship, technology and privacy, I'm analysing along racial lines? Countries are simply culturally different and it affects how the economy looks, too. I don't know why that would be a wrong way to look at things.
Wow really ? Sure culture can play a role in economy that's a fact. But don't empty his comments of all that cause problem : He imply that Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece have a common culture (false), and that this common culture is inferior economically (false) and more prone to corruption (false ?). Let me take a relevant exemple : Sarkozy (previous french president) said in a speech in Dakar that "the african man has not entered in history" and that "the problem of Africa is that it lives in a nostalgia for a lost paradise of enfancy". And yeah, that's racist.
I believe you are misrepresenting what marten said; and drawing implications needlessly when the express words are clear.
On April 22 2015 00:57 Nyxisto wrote: If someone asks "why is the Silicon Valley in the US and not in Germany?" and I say that economics aside it has probably a lot to do with the American attitude towards risk-taking, entrepreneurship, technology and privacy, I'm analysing along racial lines? Countries are simply culturally different and it affects how the economy looks, too. I don't know why that would be a wrong way to look at things.
Wow really ? Sure culture can play a role in economy that's a fact. But don't empty his comments of all that cause problem : He imply that Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece have a common culture (false), and that this common culture is inferior economically (false) and more prone to corruption (false ?). Let me take a relevant exemple : Sarkozy (previous french president) said in a speech in Dakar that "the african man has not entered in history" and that "the problem of Africa is that it lives in a nostalgia for a lost paradise of enfancy". And yeah, that's racist.
I believe you are misrepresenting what marten said; and drawing implications needlessly when the express words are clear.
On April 21 2015 06:22 WhiteDog wrote: You're funny always pointing out at corruption and putting aside the elephant in the room. What about Italy, or Spain ? Or Portugal ? Is it corruption there too ?
Definitely. Maybe not all that much compared to other parts of the world, but compared to the northern EU memberstates, yes. All these countries have another thing in common: they are low-trust societies (little trust in people outside the immediate family) that urbanised before the advent of any meaningful form of industrialisation.
1. Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece are all plagued by corruption. They are "low trust societies" and they "urbanised before the advent of any meaningful industrialisation. Really ? Does he know Italy is one of the most industrialized country in europe (32 % of their GDP and only 27.3 % for Germany) ?
Unless you truly believe that there is nu such thing as cultural differences between different countries, and that people everywhere will behave the same way when confronted with a problem, both as individuals as in groups.
2. Imply that corruption, low trusting issues and the rest of those countries problems - that explain their poor economic situation - are cultural.
So explain me how, from those comment, you do not realize this mean that there is a culturally united "north" which happens to be culturally superior - from an economic standpoint I'll give you that - to the culturally united "south" ?
People are still blaming "corruption" as the #1 problem? Yeah because before the Euro, when Italy was doing juts fine, corruption was non existant... oh wait...
The main problem of this "union" is the stubborness of the "important" people to adapt the € so it could be profitable for EVERYONE. This situation was not created by differences in cultures. It was created by the coins and the pieces of paper that me and you have in our wallets and their intrinsic value. The situation we are living in right now was predicted by MANY economists before this € was implemented. Many of them simply said that without a proper fiscal transfer policy, southern states economies would suffer GREATLY from such a strong coin. Afterall, there was a reason why Italy had coin X and Germany had coin Y, right? Yes. This was obviously ignored by the people who were trying to build the EU. Why? I don't know, but my guess was that they really wanted their names to be permanently printed on history books. What happened next? Northern states (or the states which had a strong coin) got benefits and states with a less strong coin didn't. Now we are left in a dangerous loop where X gives 5€ to Y and a week later X asks Y to give back 10€. An half assed and unsustainable solution to the problem. This "Union" (I use "" because EU is not unifying jack shit, but mostly doing the opposite) is flawed to the core and the sooner people realize it the better it is for everyone.
On April 21 2015 07:32 cLutZ wrote: They all have the same problem: Trying to live like the French in 2010, when they have the economy of the French in 1950.
Are you joking right? Italy tried to live like the french in 2010 when it had th economy of the french in 1950? You make me laugh just as much as those people who think the main export of southern countries is agricolture.
On April 21 2015 06:42 Nyxisto wrote: Italy definitely, especially Southern Italy which is pretty much run by families instead of the government.
And you believe corruption in italy is responsible for its difficulties ?
Partially, sure. It's hard to create businesses in a country that does not have a reliable legal framework and where families and dynasties dominate politics for their own interest. (not true for all of Italy, but some parts of the country)
If that isn't a big part of the problem I don't understand why Eastern Europe and the Baltics seem to be doing well under the common currency, despite starting from disastrous economic situations after the end of Communism.
Because Eastern Europe and Baltic states are simply catching up.
edit: And all of this rhetoric about southern states being full of "farmers" or being "industrialized too soon" is pissing me off. It is FALSE and DISGUSTING propaganda used by politician to push their agenda.
cultural and difference between countries all over europe are so different that you can't just ask the countries that are in a bad shape to act like a germany-like because it can't happen and won't happen
that's why the idea of a common currency is already really shaky
each country requieres a different process
just for exemple, france and england are two countries really close to each other geographically speaking but in term of law and mentality it's two entire different world
the zero-hour contract for example, if this law was even proposed in france it would be 1789 all over again .. and then imagine if england was in the eurozone and were pushing their partners for this kind of law ?
On April 22 2015 01:25 JonnyBNoHo wrote: NPR had a great podcast episode on southern Italy and how culture holds back its economy not too long ago:
Episode 400: What Two Pasta Factories Tell Us About The Italian Economy
A decade ago, the Barilla pasta factory in Foggia, Italy, had a big problem with people skipping work. The absentee rate was around 10 percent.
People called in sick all the time, typically on Mondays, or on days when there was a big soccer game.
Foggia is in southern Italy. Barilla's big factory in northern Italy had a much lower absentee rate. This is not surprising; there's a huge economic gap between southern and northern Italy. It's like two different countries.
Barilla execs told Nicola Calandrea, the manager of the Foggia plant, that they would close the factory unless he brought the absenteeism rate down.
Calandrea decided that to save the factory, he had to change the culture. On today's show, we visit the factory and hear how Calandrea made it work.
Explain me why the south has a different culture than the north of Italy ?
They get into it in the podcast. IIRC, history lead to a distrust of authority.
Are you implying the south of italy is closer to Greece from a cultural standpoint than from the north of Italy ?
No.
Corruption has a lot to do with lack of a fiable justice system, a lack of public infrastructure and poverty problems - it becomes a culture afterwards, as a response to a situation crystallized in repeated practices. Why do you think that corruption and drug appeared in Harlem in the 80s and 90s ? Do you think it is a cultural problem ? Cultural interpretations are always racist.
On April 22 2015 00:57 Nyxisto wrote: If someone asks "why is the Silicon Valley in the US and not in Germany?" and I say that economics aside it has probably a lot to do with the American attitude towards risk-taking, entrepreneurship, technology and privacy, I'm analysing along racial lines? Countries are simply culturally different and it affects how the economy looks, too. I don't know why that would be a wrong way to look at things.
Wow really ? Sure culture can play a role in economy that's a fact. But don't empty his comments of all that cause problem : He imply that Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece have a common culture (false), and that this common culture is inferior economically (false) and more prone to corruption (false ?). Let me take a relevant exemple : Sarkozy (previous french president) said in a speech in Dakar that "the african man has not entered in history" and that "the problem of Africa is that it lives in a nostalgia for a lost paradise of enfancy". And yeah, that's racist.
I believe you are misrepresenting what marten said; and drawing implications needlessly when the express words are clear.
On April 21 2015 06:22 WhiteDog wrote: You're funny always pointing out at corruption and putting aside the elephant in the room. What about Italy, or Spain ? Or Portugal ? Is it corruption there too ?
Definitely. Maybe not all that much compared to other parts of the world, but compared to the northern EU memberstates, yes. All these countries have another thing in common: they are low-trust societies (little trust in people outside the immediate family) that urbanised before the advent of any meaningful form of industrialisation.
1. Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece are all plagued by corruption. They are "low trust societies" and they "urbanised before the advent of any meaningful industrialisation. Really ? Does he know Italy is one of the most industrialized country in europe (32 % of their GDP and only 27.3 % for Germany) ?
Unless you truly believe that there is nu such thing as cultural differences between different countries, and that people everywhere will behave the same way when confronted with a problem, both as individuals as in groups.
2. Imply that corruption, low trusting issues and the rest of those countries problems - that explain their poor economic situation - are cultural.
So explain me how, from those comment, you do not realize this mean that there is a culturally united "north" which happens to be culturally superior - from an economic standpoint I'll give you that - to the culturally united "south" ?
In response to 1: I find your claim that Italy is more industrialized than Germany odd, so I ask for citations and explanation of how you're using the term, and how that interacts with postindustrial economies.
in response to 2: how is corruption not a cultural issue? Perhaps you're using the word differently than I am, in a narrower way. He does not speak about cultures being united, but of cultures having certain shared traits. I'm disagreeing with you on the question of your word choice here.
Are you joking right? Italy tried to live like the french in 2010 when it had th economy of the french in 1950? You make me laugh just as much as those people who think the main export of southern countries is agricolture.
Its an exaggeration, I think the average GDP per capita in developed countries in 1950 is like 6000 USD, which if you have the internet you basically pass that. The underlying premise is still correct.
Italy, Greece, Ireland, etc were much less economically developed than England/France in 1998 (2000). In fact, so was Germany to a large extent (we shouldn't forget that a significant portion of that populace, not half, but a lot, was living under terribly repressive social and economic conditions a decade prior). When the EU gave them the ability to access credit at favorable interest rates (why do you think many of them lied to get into the EU?) they had many options of what to do with that credit. You can simply refuse to take on debt, this is smart if you don't know what to do with it. You can take on debt and invest with it, this is smart if you know what you are doing and get a return on investment. You can also take on debt and use it to purchase things that improve your quality of life immediately, this can be smart if its a good that is going to last a long while, and you have access to other revenue streams that will continue to yield returns to repay the debt.
The problem lies in that they took the debt, used it on immediate life improvements but either didn't have, or vastly overestimated the other revenue streams. The creditors, of course, also are to blame for not recognizing this. But this isn't a flaw of the Eurozone (many countries, like Germany) have used the capital to improve their QOL and underlying economy at rates that would probably have not occurred without the monetary union.
Now, none of that is a solution. IMO, you stop (never start) "bailing out" Greece, they default, defaults happen, they can stay in the Eurozone, or not. Now the risk is in some of your banks that hold Greek debt going under. You can bail out them, if you want, and you can do it selectively, because some of them will be facing an immediate liquidity crisis, and others will be fundamentally unsound and need to be wound down. The problem with using Greece as an intermediary for what are essentially bank bailouts is that you are bargaining with an irrational party (a democratically elected government, which is not a comment on Greece).
On April 22 2015 01:25 JonnyBNoHo wrote: NPR had a great podcast episode on southern Italy and how culture holds back its economy not too long ago:
Episode 400: What Two Pasta Factories Tell Us About The Italian Economy
A decade ago, the Barilla pasta factory in Foggia, Italy, had a big problem with people skipping work. The absentee rate was around 10 percent.
People called in sick all the time, typically on Mondays, or on days when there was a big soccer game.
Foggia is in southern Italy. Barilla's big factory in northern Italy had a much lower absentee rate. This is not surprising; there's a huge economic gap between southern and northern Italy. It's like two different countries.
Barilla execs told Nicola Calandrea, the manager of the Foggia plant, that they would close the factory unless he brought the absenteeism rate down.
Calandrea decided that to save the factory, he had to change the culture. On today's show, we visit the factory and hear how Calandrea made it work.
Corruption has a lot to do with lack of a fiable justice system, a lack of public infrastructure and poverty problems - it becomes a culture afterwards, as a response to a situation crystallized in repeated practices. Why do you think that corruption and drug appeared in Harlem in the 80s and 90s ? Do you think it is a cultural problem ? Cultural interpretations are always racist.
lol
Yep I reiterate, it's racist. In 1920-1930, thousands of Italian migrants came to East Harlem. They came from southern italy, fleeing poverty and war. Politicians at that time used to say that they had "african origin" (in opposition to northern italian who lived in "german" neighborhoods). That's the same analysis as you gave more or less, and it's a hundred years old. Then in 1930-1940 the portoricans came to east harlem, and the same exact thing happened : portoricans were described as carriers of various tropical diseases due to their lack of hygiene and they were less intelligent and lazy workers, even compared to the Italian.
It's just easy, of course a population that has no public education is going to be less "intelligent", and of course a population that lives in such poverty will carry more disease... How is that culture ? How is it culture that the southern italy does not trust authority ? Just pointing out "culture" is a way to essentialize and reify certain behaviors and put aside the global superstructure that explain the behaviors. The crisis in europe is linked to its institutions, and the way it reacted to the crisis, and not to some vague behaviors commonly shared by "the south", behaviors that are "culturally" reproduced from generations to generations outside of any economical and social context. Culture, the magic word. I would even prefer Putnam's analysis on this, that's a bit more subtle than that "culture culture culture".
Just to use a number, unemployment in europe was the same as unemployment in the US before 2007. Now it has 5 % more, can you all culturalists explain me how corruption and culture evolved so much in the last 8 years that we have now so much more unemployment now ?
EPT
