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On December 12 2017 09:03 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2017 12:36 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't think it can happily create a federation without conflicts, but I fail to see why conflicts are necessarily bad when they bring about something better. Again, which country has ever formed without conflict? The Americans went to war with each other and to this day it remains the bloodiest conflict for the US. I think if we can survive a little political conflict in Europe.
And nobody will force you to learn German. We don't need to give up our languages to create a European state. People speak plenty of language in Switzerland and are part of a nation without oppressing each other. You can totally create something that respects the autonomy of indivual regions.
And Scotland and Catalonia are an interesting example, because they're both strongly pro-EU. They want to be part of the EU, they don't want to be part of their nation states. Democratic organisation is possible beyond contemporary nations. That is not a contradiction. The fact that we have so many languages in Europe is precisely the reason why I have serious doubts about any form of a federation. The average person in the EU does not have access to the public discourse in another EU member state unless they know the local language. You can expect an average person to learn one or two foreign languages, especially if the right environment is provided since childhood. Case in point: Switzerland. But you can't expect an average person to learn twenty-odd languages. The language barrier makes it easy to create rifts in mutual understanding among nations, which can in turn be taken advantage by partisan media.
it takes some time to get people educated enough with native + english languages, so it won't be a problem in about 10 years I hope
languages and math kinda the most useful things to learn
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No one should be forced to learn English just to conform to a possible federation of EU. It's true that many younger people in the EU, and some member states have near 100% fluency in English, and as can be imagined, I personally have no problems in communicating in English at all, but I don't see how it can be reasonable to foist the learning of the English language, especially if one the recipient countries is rather unwilling, such as France. Perhaps in sixty years, there will no longer be a language barrier in the EU for the common person.
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On December 12 2017 09:08 Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2017 09:03 maybenexttime wrote:On December 09 2017 12:36 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't think it can happily create a federation without conflicts, but I fail to see why conflicts are necessarily bad when they bring about something better. Again, which country has ever formed without conflict? The Americans went to war with each other and to this day it remains the bloodiest conflict for the US. I think if we can survive a little political conflict in Europe.
And nobody will force you to learn German. We don't need to give up our languages to create a European state. People speak plenty of language in Switzerland and are part of a nation without oppressing each other. You can totally create something that respects the autonomy of indivual regions.
And Scotland and Catalonia are an interesting example, because they're both strongly pro-EU. They want to be part of the EU, they don't want to be part of their nation states. Democratic organisation is possible beyond contemporary nations. That is not a contradiction. The fact that we have so many languages in Europe is precisely the reason why I have serious doubts about any form of a federation. The average person in the EU does not have access to the public discourse in another EU member state unless they know the local language. You can expect an average person to learn one or two foreign languages, especially if the right environment is provided since childhood. Case in point: Switzerland. But you can't expect an average person to learn twenty-odd languages. The language barrier makes it easy to create rifts in mutual understanding among nations, which can in turn be taken advantage by partisan media. it takes some time to get people educated enough with native + english languages, so it won't be a problem in about 10 years I hope languages and math kinda the most useful things to learn
You are forgetting that the public discourse in EU member states is based on each country's local language. I can't watch German TV or read their newspapers, follow the debates in their parliament, etc. unless I know German sufficiently well. The same for France, Spain, the Netherlands and so on. Being a competent user of the English language doesn't cut it.
There are languages that people have incentive to learn. But would you expect a Spaniard to learn Polish or Estonian?
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EU language should be French rather than English though. That would solve a lot of these problems and give a means by which to stick it to those Brexiteers.
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On December 12 2017 10:01 LegalLord wrote:
EU language should be French rather than English though. That would solve a lot of these problems and give a means by which to stick it to those Brexiteers.
Reminds me of the 'Euro English' joke
+ Show Spoiler +The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".
In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.
Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.
Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.
By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".
During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.
Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.
Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.
Or we could just go back to Latin while we're at it. I seriously don't see a big language problem. Everyday discourse will just continue on like it does now. Nobody needs to speak twenty languages to make the EU work right now, and politicians have translators and speak multiple languages anyway. I think people are making a bigger deal out of this than necessary.
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On December 12 2017 09:03 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2017 12:36 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't think it can happily create a federation without conflicts, but I fail to see why conflicts are necessarily bad when they bring about something better. Again, which country has ever formed without conflict? The Americans went to war with each other and to this day it remains the bloodiest conflict for the US. I think if we can survive a little political conflict in Europe.
And nobody will force you to learn German. We don't need to give up our languages to create a European state. People speak plenty of language in Switzerland and are part of a nation without oppressing each other. You can totally create something that respects the autonomy of indivual regions.
And Scotland and Catalonia are an interesting example, because they're both strongly pro-EU. They want to be part of the EU, they don't want to be part of their nation states. Democratic organisation is possible beyond contemporary nations. That is not a contradiction. The fact that we have so many languages in Europe is precisely the reason why I have serious doubts about any form of a federation. The average person in the EU does not have access to the public discourse in another EU member state unless they know the local language. You can expect an average person to learn one or two foreign languages, especially if the right environment is provided since childhood. Case in point: Switzerland. But you can't expect an average person to learn twenty-odd languages. The language barrier makes it easy to create rifts in mutual understanding among nations, which can in turn be taken advantage by partisan media.
I don't know why you focus on language. Mostly people only read/watch the local news anyway. I speak English fluently (a lot better than I speak Spanish or Catalan, in fact), but mostly I don't read English papers. It has nothing to do with the language and everything to do with that I'm far more interested in what is going on day-to-day in Barcelona than in Manchester. I do concede that most international coverage here is shit, and I use an assortment of more internationally oriented websites for that. But most people don't.
Hell, as an example, just look at the difference in coverage of the Catalan referendum in Catalonia and the rest of Spain. No language barrier required to preach to the choir.
E: just to clarify, you can ignore the Catalan language papers and focus just on the Spanish papers' coverage that were published in Catalonia.
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I don't think it's a problem, you could give people a choice to learn some of the more prominent ones German, French, English Spanish or whatever. And are you forgetting that they did try to fix this by making some bizare mixed European language, they even made a dictionary for it but, needless to say, it didn't take. I really wonder wtf it sounded like lol.. Maybe some like luxembourgish or something :|
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Also not to be too pessimistic here but even if everybody spoke a dozen languages I don't think we'd suddenly all become enlightened European citizens because everybody starts to read diverse set of high quality news everyday. Most people aren't that into politics anyway. They care about everyday life in their region more than European discourse. I'll be honest I couldn't really tell you what's going on in Thuringian politics at all right now and that is without a language barrier
I also know nothing about Italian politics apart from the fact that a five star movement exists and is increasingly popular and that Berlusconi is apparently making some kind of comeback. That's not because there's no news in a language out there I understand but because I just can't keep track of two dozen different countries.
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The lack of common language is important because it makes separatism much easier to "sell" to the average voter.
People from smaller members of the federalised union may feel ignored, because the important things will be discussed and decided in French/German/Italian political scenes, while they'll only get to read translations or repeated opinions in their press. There is also the fact that certain areas are very different culturally, so whenever a controversial law will be enacted, a lot of people will feel like They (the other nations) are forcing their views onto them. For example abortion: it's already a hot topic in normal countries, but if one side of the conflict "wins" democratically, moderates tend to accept the result and move on even if it's against their views. In the federalised union it would get much worse, separatism would surge in conservative countries if "people who don't even speak their language" tried to force them to allow stuff like gay adoptions, liberalized abortion laws or child sex change treatments.
The lack of common language would also fuel separatism in bigger and richer countries, because whenever some smaller countries will be in trouble, it will be very easy to blame Them (the whole nation), instead of "the evil" banksters/unions/immigrants who usually get the blame when something goes wrong in the country. Look at Greece, the "lazy Greek" stereotype that was popularized after the crisis is a perfect example of that. If Greece was just a subregion in a country with common language, the average person in that country would never blame the Greeks, they'd think the government of that region fucked up, but not the whole population. This should lead to a worse treatment of troubled regions in the federalised union, as the voters from succesful regions will be less likely to support spending their taxes on helping these regions.
On December 13 2017 01:03 MyTHicaL wrote:
I don't think it's a problem, you could give people a choice to learn some of the more prominent ones German, French, English Spanish or whatever. And are you forgetting that they did try to fix this by making some bizare mixed European language, they even made a dictionary for it but, needless to say, it didn't take. I really wonder wtf it sounded like lol.. Maybe some like luxembourgish or something :|
Esperanto?
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On December 13 2017 01:57 Sent. wrote:The lack of common language is important because it makes separatism much easier to "sell" to the average voter. People from smaller members of the federalised union may feel ignored, because the important things will be discussed and decided in French/German/Italian political scenes, while they'll only get to read translations or repeated opinions in their press. There is also the fact that certain areas are very different culturally, so whenever a controversial law will be enacted, a lot of people will feel like They (the other nations) are forcing their views onto them. For example abortion: it's already a hot topic in normal countries, but if one side of the conflict "wins" democratically, moderates tend to accept the result and move on even if it's against their views. In the federalised union it would get much worse, separatism would surge in conservative countries if "people who don't even speak their language" tried to force them to allow stuff like gay adoptions, liberalized abortion laws or child sex change treatments. The lack of common language would also fuel separatism in bigger and richer countries, because whenever some smaller countries will be in trouble, it will be very easy to blame Them (the whole nation), instead of "the evil" banksters/unions/immigrants who usually get the blame when something goes wrong in the country. Look at Greece, the "lazy Greek" stereotype that was popularized after the crisis is a perfect example of that. If Greece was just a subregion in a country with common language, the average person in that country would never blame the Greeks, they'd think the government of that region fucked up, but not the whole population. This should lead to a worse treatment of troubled regions in the federalised union, as the voters from succesful regions will be less likely to support spending their taxes on helping these regions. Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 01:03 MyTHicaL wrote:
I don't think it's a problem, you could give people a choice to learn some of the more prominent ones German, French, English Spanish or whatever. And are you forgetting that they did try to fix this by making some bizare mixed European language, they even made a dictionary for it but, needless to say, it didn't take. I really wonder wtf it sounded like lol.. Maybe some like luxembourgish or something :| Esperanto?
First hand experience from Germany: Not true. Even today, you hear "Wessi/Ossi" (westerner/easterner) as common reason for everything thats wrong.
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Wessies started pumping money into Ossies right after USSR let them go simply because they're Germans like them.
Every bigger country has regional animosities like that, but they're rarely comparable to relations like the ones between Spain and Catalonia or England and Scotland.
Edit: the Italian example was pretty bad.
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Oh, don't let that hear the Ossis. (I am a Wossie, so i can speak for both). The popular opinion among older Ossies is, that the Wessies destroyed what was left of their economy to destroy what was honest competition and buy those for cheap, that actually were good investments. Then they destroyed the parts of the companies that did not give insane profits. Of course it is much more easy to feel seperated by language then by geography or politics. But we sinply decide which part of the world we want to feel interested in and there is no reason to believe we could not feel more close to Europe if we want to.
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Language doesn't really matter as long as people feel of kinda belonging together while having space for their individual strangeness.
Federalism fuck yeah!
Btw: That swiss people know 2-3 languages is a myth. Most of my friends know german and english. A few and me can kinda do french (or italian), only very few speak all 3. We probably have more "double language mothertongue" than most other countries but learning french/italuan/german is just as hard/annoying as anywhere else.
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The UK leaving the EU making English less of a relevant language was something I actually hadn't thought about. It is the only common language I have with most people in Europe. Not everybody has learnt it but enough know it so one can get by. Can't think of another language that is true for. So them leaving the EU makes it harder to have that as a "first" language or similar, though I guess this isn't important anyway.
When visiting a German hotel you find instructions in German and English. Think it was the same with French and English when I was in France (can't recall). The hotel had somebody that knew the language at least.
Automatic translations will likely solve the language issue around the time any stronger EU bonds exist. So we can all do whatever language we want and our phones handles the translation on the fly.
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On December 13 2017 05:35 Yurie wrote:
The UK leaving the EU making English less of a relevant language was something I actually hadn't thought about. It is the only common language I have with most people in Europe. Not everybody has learnt it but enough know it so one can get by. Can't think of another language that is true for. So them leaving the EU makes it harder to have that as a "first" language or similar, though I guess this isn't important anyway.
When visiting a German hotel you find instructions in German and English. Think it was the same with French and English when I was in France (can't recall). The hotel had somebody that knew the language at least.
Automatic translations will likely solve the language issue around the time any stronger EU bonds exist. So we can all do whatever language we want and our phones handles the translation on the fly.
You all forget USA is still a big power. Canada isn't a small country either. Then you have Australia and New Zealand. The EU wants to be attractive to some or all of these countries. The EU has a free-trade agreement with Canada. English isn't getting any less relevant. If English was going to be replaced with French, German, Spanish or Dutch, I would be against the trend then.
The smaller countries need countries like the UK so France and Germany don't act godlike now or in the future. Somebody has to keep them in check. Someone has to stop people like Martin Schulz with his United States of Europe crap. That could be achieved by enough opposing countries which are also strong. It's a game of balance (equilibrium).
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On December 13 2017 07:22 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 05:35 Yurie wrote:
The UK leaving the EU making English less of a relevant language was something I actually hadn't thought about. It is the only common language I have with most people in Europe. Not everybody has learnt it but enough know it so one can get by. Can't think of another language that is true for. So them leaving the EU makes it harder to have that as a "first" language or similar, though I guess this isn't important anyway.
When visiting a German hotel you find instructions in German and English. Think it was the same with French and English when I was in France (can't recall). The hotel had somebody that knew the language at least.
Automatic translations will likely solve the language issue around the time any stronger EU bonds exist. So we can all do whatever language we want and our phones handles the translation on the fly. You all forget USA is still a big power.
Nations shouldn't humor our idiocy any longer. Forcing us to learn other languages to be in the global market would would do the US a lot of good. German is cool. Or French. One of the two is fine.
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Snow-hit southern Europe could face energy shortages after authorities warned that Austrian pipelines were likely to be out of action for days following an explosion and fire that ripped through a main gas hub near Vienna.
Baumgarten, where the explosion occurred, is a key distribution and reception hub for gas exports and imports, including from Russia, Europe’s biggest gas supplier. In Italy, where rain, snow and extreme cold weather have disrupted traffic in the north-east over the last few days, the country’s industry minister declared a state of emergency due to a lack of gas supplies.
One person was killed and 18 injured in the blast on Tuesday. One of the casualties was airlifted to Vienna’s general hospital with serious injuries but was later confirmed to be in a non-critical condition.
A police spokesman said: “There was an explosion around 8.45am and a fire. A wide area has been sealed off and there are expected to be several injured.”
In Britain, Europe’s biggest gas market, gas for immediate delivery rose 35% to 92p per therm, its highest level for four years.
Austrian police said the explosion in Baumgarten, which is north-east of Vienna, had been caused by a technical problem. Fire services worked until the early afternoon to put out fires started by the blast. The chassis of several cars parked on the site were melted by the heat of the explosion.
Natural gas is transported to Baumgarten through Slovakia and Germany along several pipelines. Gas flows are then delivered throughout Europe via Austria’s transmission network.
The hub’s operator, Gas Connect, said Austria’s gas supply was secured “for the foreseeable future” but conceded that deliveries to the country’s southern and south-eastern borders would be affected until further notice.
The Vienna-based gas company estimated that it would take “days, not hours” to restore supply lines, according to Der Standard newspaper.
Carlo Calenda, the Italian industry minister, said the country must grapple with a serious energy supply problem and underlined the need to develop the Trans Adriatic Pipeline (TAP). The project is designed to give Italy a new supply route but has been delayed by protests.
“If we had had the TAP, we would not have to declare a state of emergency,” Calenda told Reuters.
The Italian wholesale day-ahead price surged 97% to a record high of €47 per megawatt hour. Gas prices elsewhere in Europe soared on concerns about supply.
Other countries directly affected include Croatia, Hungary, Slovakia and Slovenia.
The Moscow-based gas supplier Gazprom PJSC said it was “working on redistribution of gas flows and does its best to secure uninterrupted gas supplies to the clients on this transport direction”.
The volume of gas passing westwards through Ukraine, the main transit country for Russian gas, was reduced by a third as a result of the blast.
Slovakia’s main gas transit route to Austria was suspended after the fire, the Slovakian pipeline operator Eustream said.
“As a result of the event in Austria … we adjusted the transit regime in our network to fully secure its safety and suspended transit to Baumgarten,” a spokesman said.
Source
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Thinking French or any other language can replace English as the lingua franca of Europe is a little silly. In eastern europe like 1% of people speak French, Spanish or whatever have you, and I'm pretty sure over 80% of relatively young people speak passable to fluent English. Yes I just pulled those stats out of my ass  but still, UK or not, people already speak the language. It's the only language we can all speak. Except the Italians, lol
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On December 13 2017 07:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 07:22 sc-darkness wrote:On December 13 2017 05:35 Yurie wrote:
The UK leaving the EU making English less of a relevant language was something I actually hadn't thought about. It is the only common language I have with most people in Europe. Not everybody has learnt it but enough know it so one can get by. Can't think of another language that is true for. So them leaving the EU makes it harder to have that as a "first" language or similar, though I guess this isn't important anyway.
When visiting a German hotel you find instructions in German and English. Think it was the same with French and English when I was in France (can't recall). The hotel had somebody that knew the language at least.
Automatic translations will likely solve the language issue around the time any stronger EU bonds exist. So we can all do whatever language we want and our phones handles the translation on the fly. You all forget USA is still a big power. Nations shouldn't humor our idiocy any longer. Forcing us to learn other languages to be in the global market would would do the US a lot of good. German is cool. Or French. One of the two is fine.
This is your internal problem then. The EU shouldn't resolve it for you. If you think you don't know enough languages, then reform your education. Making schools free and high quality works for Europe. Also, you have enough immigrants who may already teach languages.
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No, german should not become a more important language. It's not that it is aggressive or raw as a lot of jokes about us say (we are not all screaming words either), it's just really hard to learn, especially if you don't speak it all the time. English as the common language in the world and europe will not suddenly disappear because Europe does it's own thing now and UK does not want to play anymore, It is the second language in almost every country and it will stay that way.
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