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On December 13 2017 09:16 Broetchenholer wrote:
No, german should not become a more important language. It's not that it is aggressive or raw as a lot of jokes about us say (we are not all screaming words either), it's just really hard to learn, especially if you don't speak it all the time. English as the common language in the world and europe will not suddenly disappear because Europe does it's own thing now and UK does not want to play anymore, It is the second language in almost every country and it will stay that way.
Depending on if India keeps up its high English rate or not Chinese could slowly come to replace English. Those two seem the only reasonable options right now to me. Spanish might become big as well if SA and Mexico has a resurgence.
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France, Germany and to some extent Spain needs to realize that they lost the cultural war. English is the global second language and will continue to be so. France and Germanys unwillingness to use English just come off as some petty arrogance based on nostalgia.
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A good way to make people abandon English is to tell them it is a cultural war that they are losing.
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On December 13 2017 16:43 Big J wrote:
A good way to make people abandon English is to tell them it is a cultural war that they are losing.
Completely agree with this lol... All European countries/peoples have such a long history with several different periods of domination. I feel randomly lucky that English has become the international language but it in Europe it did, once apon a time, happen to be French. Amongst the aristrocracy at least... And then numerous revolutions occurred. Guillotines for everyone  .
https://jakubmarian.com/map-of-the-most-spoken-foreign-languages-of-the-eu-by-country/
- That link is.. stupid. Second foreign language of the UK is French? Are you high? They simply do not have one unless it comes naturally due to origins. They recently abolished the obligation in high schools to even teach any foreign language after 14 I believe (not that recently).
Also that map is national not regional which is a problem in my eyes. South of France definately is more proficient in Spanish. Italians all (claim, and many do) to speak fluent Spanish as well. Latin languages do not correlate very well with English :|.
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On December 13 2017 16:15 Longshank wrote:
France, Germany and to some extent Spain needs to realize that they lost the cultural war. English is the global second language and will continue to be so. France and Germanys unwillingness to use English just come off as some petty arrogance based on nostalgia.
Which unwillingness? Atleast in Germany/Austria/Switzerland i don't sense any?
Its also interesting how much people disregard French (and Spanish) as a global language. Large parts of Africa speak French, disregarding French as a global language is plain ignorance.
The one thing english has truely going for it, is that its basics are extremly easy.
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A few updates on Austrian coalition talks between the conservative ÖVP and the right-wing populists of FPÖ:
The full smoking ban for gastronomy which was issued for 2018 will not take effect.
CETA will be ratified, there will be no public vote on it.
Parents will get a tax reduction of 1500€ per year and child while public child care will be reduced.
Detailed taxation plans are still outstanding, but so far it has been communicated that taxes for smaller incomes (up to 1900€) will be the first focus.
Working hours will be extended to 60/week 12/day (from 48/w, 10/day with lots of exceptions).
No change in climate goals, until 2030 all electricity should be renewables.
Grading will be reintroduced in the first classes of elementary school (which is a parental choice at the moment).
Membership duty for the chamber of workers (employees) and the chamber of economy (for employers) will stay, but the membership fees should be reduced.
Easier access to foreigner employment in sectors with a worker shortage.
EU orders shouldn't be carried out so fast anymore. (or as chancellor-to-be Sebastian Kurz put it, they don't want to try to be the best)
A few core topics that have not been communicated so far:
Migration and social transfers in general, but in particular for migrants. It's probable that these will be cut and people not having worked for 5 years in austria won't get any, but that's probably against EU law. Nothing on limiting migration either.
Direct democracy. The ÖVP does not want it, the FPÖ has always claimed they won't form a coalition without it.
Administration reforms to finance everything, which they claimed to save 12 billions (and more) from per year.
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On December 13 2017 17:49 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 16:15 Longshank wrote:
France, Germany and to some extent Spain needs to realize that they lost the cultural war. English is the global second language and will continue to be so. France and Germanys unwillingness to use English just come off as some petty arrogance based on nostalgia. Which unwillingness? Atleast in Germany/Austria/Switzerland i don't sense any? Its also interesting how much people disregard French (and Spanish) as a global language. Large parts of Africa speak French, disregarding French as a global language is plain ignorance. The one thing english has truely going for it, is that its basics are extremly easy.
Such as French, German and English being procedural languages within the EU. Pick one so we can communicate already. The western community(online and offline) has picked English, only some fossils in the EU cling on to French and German when communicating internationally.
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No one speaks French. Africa is not in Europe and will need at least a hundred years to become a relevant continent for anyone except predatory business.
German has a snowball's chance in hell of ousting English if something super funny happens, but since most people consider it a butt-ugly language that's another hurdle it needs to overcome.
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I'd say Germans are way too preoccupied with watching Netflix to get rid of the English language.
At the moment getting a government is more important that brexit pettiness. And advancing the EU will always be more important than brexit pettiness. I hope. Otherwise we'll just have a prime example of Brussels being otherworldly.
Maybe a discussion about that will come in 2025 but I'm sure that relation between the nations won't be as icy for long. Unless Britain elects instead of ejects Boris Johnson.
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On December 13 2017 18:37 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 17:49 Velr wrote:On December 13 2017 16:15 Longshank wrote:
France, Germany and to some extent Spain needs to realize that they lost the cultural war. English is the global second language and will continue to be so. France and Germanys unwillingness to use English just come off as some petty arrogance based on nostalgia. Which unwillingness? Atleast in Germany/Austria/Switzerland i don't sense any? Its also interesting how much people disregard French (and Spanish) as a global language. Large parts of Africa speak French, disregarding French as a global language is plain ignorance. The one thing english has truely going for it, is that its basics are extremly easy. Such as French, German and English being procedural languages within the EU. Pick one so we can communicate already. The western community(online and offline) has picked English, only some fossils in the EU cling on to French and German when communicating internationally.
Language means power. If you hold the keys to communication and information, if you are much more well-equipped for discussions and formal and informal talks you hold a position of power.
You can filibuster any discussion with foreigners when you can just lecture them on your language and formally pretend that what they are saying is unclear or wrong.
Laws are written, passed and interpreted in languages and their "logical" interpretations.
Furthermore there are many people not well versed in English everywhere. It's highly undemocratic to exclude them in one form or another from the political process.
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On December 13 2017 19:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 18:37 Longshank wrote:On December 13 2017 17:49 Velr wrote:On December 13 2017 16:15 Longshank wrote:
France, Germany and to some extent Spain needs to realize that they lost the cultural war. English is the global second language and will continue to be so. France and Germanys unwillingness to use English just come off as some petty arrogance based on nostalgia. Which unwillingness? Atleast in Germany/Austria/Switzerland i don't sense any? Its also interesting how much people disregard French (and Spanish) as a global language. Large parts of Africa speak French, disregarding French as a global language is plain ignorance. The one thing english has truely going for it, is that its basics are extremly easy. Such as French, German and English being procedural languages within the EU. Pick one so we can communicate already. The western community(online and offline) has picked English, only some fossils in the EU cling on to French and German when communicating internationally. Language means power. If you hold the keys to communication and information, if you are much more well-equipped for discussions and formal and informal talks you hold a position of power. You can filibuster any discussion with foreigners when you can just lecture them on your language and formally pretend that what they are saying is unclear or wrong. Laws are written, passed and interpreted in languages and their "logical" interpretations. Furthermore there are many people not well versed in English everywhere. It's highly undemocratic to exclude them in one form or another from the political process.
Language absolutely means power, and it feels wrong when that power is limited to a handful of countries. It creates an uneven play field within the union. I understand that there would need to be a transition period when going for a common language but France and Germany show very little effort for that. For example, movies and series are still being dubbed despite that being one of the best way to learn English naturally.
Don't you see the benefits of being able to communicate with fellow EU members? And if so, what language should be used if not English?
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On December 13 2017 20:13 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 19:01 Big J wrote:On December 13 2017 18:37 Longshank wrote:On December 13 2017 17:49 Velr wrote:On December 13 2017 16:15 Longshank wrote:
France, Germany and to some extent Spain needs to realize that they lost the cultural war. English is the global second language and will continue to be so. France and Germanys unwillingness to use English just come off as some petty arrogance based on nostalgia. Which unwillingness? Atleast in Germany/Austria/Switzerland i don't sense any? Its also interesting how much people disregard French (and Spanish) as a global language. Large parts of Africa speak French, disregarding French as a global language is plain ignorance. The one thing english has truely going for it, is that its basics are extremly easy. Such as French, German and English being procedural languages within the EU. Pick one so we can communicate already. The western community(online and offline) has picked English, only some fossils in the EU cling on to French and German when communicating internationally. Language means power. If you hold the keys to communication and information, if you are much more well-equipped for discussions and formal and informal talks you hold a position of power. You can filibuster any discussion with foreigners when you can just lecture them on your language and formally pretend that what they are saying is unclear or wrong. Laws are written, passed and interpreted in languages and their "logical" interpretations. Furthermore there are many people not well versed in English everywhere. It's highly undemocratic to exclude them in one form or another from the political process. Language absolutely means power, and it feels wrong when that power is limited to a handful of countries. It creates an uneven play field within the union. I understand that there would need to be a transition period when going for a common language but France and Germany show very little effort for that. For example, movies and series are still being dubbed despite that being one of the best way to learn English naturally. Don't you see the benefits of being able to communicate with fellow EU members? And if so, what language should be used if not English?
I absolutely agree, but that's totally unrealistic.
Movies are dubbed in big languages because the size of the markets justify the costs. It has little to do with pride. You dub a Hollywood movie in German und you get 20 million potential viewers that simply can't/won't watch it if it was English only. It's not like there is a national German order to do so.
There is no way you can just order a language transition at this point in history in a developed country like German or France. Such a change has to happen from within society, which it is slowly.
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Uhm, what? Nobody here even proposed not using English as the common language. Germans don't cling to their motherlanguage anymore then anybody else. We do learn English in school and even though we are not as fluent in it as Scandinavia, we are pretty decent in it. And we have the choice to watch movies in German or in English, that is not arrogance or nostalgia.
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I don't mind to use English as a common language, moreover it would be more useful for everyting except for national pride (which is arguably - delusional feeling), so I would vote for such option if it's possible.
On December 13 2017 16:15 Longshank wrote:
France, Germany and to some extent Spain needs to realize that they lost the cultural war. English is the global second language and will continue to be so. France and Germanys unwillingness to use English just come off as some petty arrogance based on nostalgia.
pretty much this
people needs to realize that we need a common language to break barriers of understanding with each other, but such process take a few generations
besides, having english as a common language does not mean u have to forget or ignore your native language, learning additional languages makes a person smarter, no matter what language do you choose it benefits personally
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On December 13 2017 23:05 Dav1oN wrote:I don't mind to use English as a common language, moreover it would be more useful for everyting except for national pride (which is arguably - delusional feeling), so I would vote for such option if it's possible. Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 16:15 Longshank wrote:
France, Germany and to some extent Spain needs to realize that they lost the cultural war. English is the global second language and will continue to be so. France and Germanys unwillingness to use English just come off as some petty arrogance based on nostalgia. pretty much this people needs to realize that we need a common language to break barriers of understanding with each other, but such process take a few generations besides, having english as a common language does not mean u have to forget or ignore your native language, learning additional languages makes a person smarter, no matter what language do you choose it benefits personally
who are those people you are talking about?
Last I checked English was taught to almost everyone as secondary language in Germany and France. And nowadays the English proficiency is quite good among the younger generations. Looks like people already realized.
I also didn't see anyone here arguing for stopping to teach English. So who exactly does to realize your ground breaking revelations?
Or do you wanna argue, that for weird reasons, the German Bundestag should suddenly debate in English and you have to use English in court here?
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On December 13 2017 23:28 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2017 23:05 Dav1oN wrote:I don't mind to use English as a common language, moreover it would be more useful for everyting except for national pride (which is arguably - delusional feeling), so I would vote for such option if it's possible. On December 13 2017 16:15 Longshank wrote:
France, Germany and to some extent Spain needs to realize that they lost the cultural war. English is the global second language and will continue to be so. France and Germanys unwillingness to use English just come off as some petty arrogance based on nostalgia. pretty much this people needs to realize that we need a common language to break barriers of understanding with each other, but such process take a few generations besides, having english as a common language does not mean u have to forget or ignore your native language, learning additional languages makes a person smarter, no matter what language do you choose it benefits personally who are those people you are talking about? Last I checked English was taught to almost everyone as secondary language in Germany and France. And nowadays the English proficiency is quite good among the younger generations. Looks like people already realized. I also didn't see anyone here arguing for stopping to teach English. So who exactly does to realize your ground breaking revelations? Or do you wanna argue, that for weird reasons, the German Bundestag should suddenly debate in English and you have to use English in court here?
I am also confused by this.
Go to Germany, and talk to any random person under 30 in English. They will almost certainly be able to communicate with you, and most will be pretty fluent in the language. A lot of people in that age group choose to consume english media in the original language rather than dealing with dubbed version.
Why do people continue to claim that Germans don't want to learn english, when they quite obviously do just that.
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People don't really "want" to learn english, it just happens naturally given the way internet and our world works.
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Nobody said it should be a sudden transition, it does not work with humans.
But yea, it needs to be done eventually in every state of Europe, not only in Germany. And considering modern tendency with educating systems in EU - english is a perfect fit for a common language.
Or imagine it is possible to communicate officially both in German and English in your local governmental structures, is it bad?
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EPT
