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On September 21 2014 03:33 skypig wrote:Yes I was spanked as a child, and I thank God my parents did...we were such bad kids  , and we definitely needed it. My mom would usually spank us with a wooden spoon or a little switch. When we got to a certain age (I think past 12 or something), my parents stopped the spanking, and replaced it with grounding (they would either ban us from playing the computer, or from going outside), because we didn't care that much about being spanked anymore. Also, to all the people who think that spanking = "beating your children"... get a life and wake up, LOL. This is one of the stupidest straw-man arguments I've ever heard. As others have already said, there's a difference between slapping your kid on the backside with a spoon/open hand a few times, and beating them with a bat/whip/chair to the point that they're cut and bleeding. The first one is called discipline, the second one is called over-the-top violence/brutality. If you can't differentiate between these, you don't belong on the Internet, much less in this thread.
That's why it's banned in some countries in Europe, because we don't have a life, right? Lol.
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Canada11321 Posts
@Squat.
Your first link is childhood abuse- emotional and sexual. I have no doubt abuse is extremely damaging to a child's development, but I do not think anyone is defending emotional and sexual abuse (or physical abuse for that matter).
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The OP really needs one more poll:
If you were spanked, do you, looking back, think it was a good or bad thing, overall?
I was spanked many times as a kid and am glad I was, but I never received anything like the little boy in question. I've only heard small sound bites, but it sounded like the parent went way overboard.
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On September 21 2014 04:00 Falling wrote:
@Squat.
Your first link is childhood abuse- emotional and sexual. I have no doubt abuse is extremely damaging to a child's development, but I do not think anyone is defending emotional and sexual abuse (or physical abuse for that matter).
Abuse was categorized as a suitcase term for a variety of damaging behaviours, corporal punishment included. The more pertinent part is that repeated emotional trauma during childhood, regardless of source, causes measurable changes in the brain. We know this.
Regardless, we can completely ignore it and the point still stands. There are plenty of resources out there for the curious. A simple google search and an hour of research will dispel most doubts, I'd wager.
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On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high.
The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotions
Opinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning.
http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119
Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brain
This bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdf
Here's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/
I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money.
You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model.
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On September 21 2014 03:12 sCCrooked wrote:
The problem is not beating your child vs not. The problem is that these bullshit studies that news sources all over are quoting as "scientific evidence that corporal punishment heads children towards violent lives" are being allowed to be used without ever explaining how the conclusion was reached.
If you actually look at the studies Huffpost, NYTimes, etc all are quoting and posting, you'll find that almost 100% of them were funded by DRUG FIRMS or large corporations in the medical or psychological industries with vested interests in the outcomes that could mean a whole new market opening up for them to sell drugs to.
You also will find that while they pick 1400-1600 subjects in some of the larger studies, they only picked 20 people as a "control". Such a large disparity only skews the results by putting a great deal more people on one side than the other. It also must be noted that the 1400-1600 that were "beaten as children" had to meet the following criteria:
-Beaten for at least 3 sustained years or longer during childhood
-All incidents were public or became public in the duration of the corporal punishment
-All incidents involved medium to large objects.
That last one there? "medium to large" objects is further-explained to be full-sized chairs, baseball bats and kitchen/household appliances! WHAT THE HELL!? How do these people deem it unnecessary to clarify that their study was not a child who acted out and ignored verbal warnings and was therefore delivered a private in-home spanking that lasts only 5-10 strikes (most don't even do more than 2-3) but 100% public beatings with loud public verbal insults and finally almost all the time involving large objects instead of hands! You can't even debate how ridiculous this massive omission of data is! Scientifically, those facts alone would discredit these studies entirely.
So in other words, there are no definitive non-biased non-corporate-funded correctly-executed truly "scientific" studies done on any of this! If the anti-spanking side had the decency to not lie about this so openly on a massive scale, I might entertain the idea. However when I find one side is being honest but looks bad publicly because the other is wildly blown out of proportion by the mass media and lies, I'm going to go with my own experiences instead of liars.
The dividing line must be made so that they understand that people who were spanked and yelled at for discipline in their homes as children are in a completely different category and situation than those who are publicly humiliated and beaten with large objects until welts and a good amount of blood is drawn. Stop lumping "beatings" in the same category. Any sensible human would know better unless they're just stupid as fuck.
I was trying to figure out how the German & Nordic groups handled actual, strong-willed children, as physical punishment is always a necessity to with them. Then I remembered they don't have a problem drugging a child up to the nines, on top of a culture that's inwardly focused.
Though the USA isn't immune to that problem either. Though that's almost wholly the result of our schools viewing a child that can't sit for 6+ hours a day as defective. (The reason we use the most anti-depressants is actually a separate issue)
Still, as I mentioned on the first page, this is a 30/30/40 issue. 30% of children are going to need heavy physical correction; 30% will respond a lot better to verbal correction; 40% doesn't seem to swing either way, being more about consistency. It should also be point out that the time period when physical correction is needed is most needed is age 3 & below. So I imagine some posters here, who are an eldest sibling, simply don't remember the few times they were.
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On September 21 2014 04:16 Taf the Ghost wrote:
Though the USA isn't immune to that problem either. Though that's almost wholly the result of our schools viewing a child that can't sit for 6+ hours a day as defective. (The reason we use the most anti-depressants is actually a separate issue)
Happy to see I'm not the only one that finds this troubling.
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On September 21 2014 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high. The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotionsOpinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning. http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brainThis bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdfHere's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money. You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model.
Yes, if you dismiss everything that seems to contradict you on frivolous grounds, there is indeed no evidence.
No one is claiming that we know, but all the data that is materialising points one way.
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It is the easiest method for quick behavior correction but it's by far the worst method for setting long term behavior correction, behavior correction that sticks. Furthermore it can over time completely remove the option for other forms of behavior correction, as the problem with any fear based correction when fear is not used the child is unresponsive as they only look for the fear based punishment. In other words it's what a lazy parent does to shut a kid up not to help a kid grow as a person.
There is over 60 years of psychology to back this up. New studies are published every year confirming it anyone with access one of the many psych study databases could find them and read them. Is it better than no behavior correction? Yes, but it's pretty shit in terms of effectiveness of most parents expectations.
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On September 21 2014 04:25 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high. The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotionsOpinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning. http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brainThis bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdfHere's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money. You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model. Yes, if you dismiss everything that seems to contradict you on frivolous grounds, there is indeed no evidence. No one is claiming that we know, but all the data that is materialising points one way.
Don't you know that his own personal experiences is enough to nullify all of these research because they doesn't fit with his view? heh
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My dad used a belt. Although I don't remember ever being beat so hard that I bled, that definitely seems excessive.
It's definitely a culture thing, I don't know a single person who was raised by Hispanic parents like I was that wasn't physically disciplined as a kid.
More often than not though, spanking was a last resort. First resort was the threat of spanking and that was usually enough to get me back in line as a kid since I knew the threats weren't empty.
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On September 21 2014 04:25 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high. The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotionsOpinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning. http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brainThis bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdfHere's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money. You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model. Yes, if you dismiss everything that seems to contradict you on frivolous grounds, there is indeed no evidence. No one is claiming that we know, but all the data that is materialising points one way.
No, what you stated is completely irrelevant and does not apply in any way to how I methodically researched every piece you tried to use and completely gutted your argument by simply pointing out your studies are completely biased and do not represent any demographic well. I don't even have to bring you personally into this at all, I merely have to quote numbers from your own sources to prove you didn't even bother reading past the opinion article pieces. There is no unbiased or well-represented data regarding this issue.
Faust852 wrote:
Don't you know that his own personal experiences is enough to nullify all of these research because they doesn't fit with his view? heh
Another ignorant fool spouting made-up irrelevant babble because his argument got gutted and he can't come up with anything other than a personal remark. Don't be dumb and maybe you wouldn't have to make yourself look more the fool unbeknownst to you.
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On September 21 2014 04:34 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 04:25 Squat wrote:On September 21 2014 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high. The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotionsOpinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning. http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brainThis bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdfHere's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money. You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model. Yes, if you dismiss everything that seems to contradict you on frivolous grounds, there is indeed no evidence. No one is claiming that we know, but all the data that is materialising points one way. No, what you stated is completely irrelevant and does not apply in any way to how I methodically researched every piece you tried to use and completely gutted your argument by simply pointing out your studies are completely biased and do not represent any demographic well. I don't even have to bring you personally into this at all, I merely have to quote numbers from your own sources to prove you didn't even bother reading past the opinion article pieces. Show nested quote +Faust852 wrote:
Don't you know that his own personal experiences is enough to nullify all of these research because they doesn't fit with his view? heh Another ignorant fool spouting made-up irrelevant babble because his argument got gutted and he can't come up with anything other than a personal remark. Don't be dumb and maybe you wouldn't have to make yourself look more the fool unbeknownst to you.
Instead of insulting me, you could try to provide counter argument, don't you think ? But I guess ad hominem are easier to use.
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No, what you stated is completely irrelevant and does not apply in any way to how I methodically researched every piece you tried to use and completely gutted your argument by simply pointing out your studies are completely biased and do not represent any demographic well. I don't even have to bring you personally into this at all, I merely have to quote numbers from your own sources to prove you didn't even bother reading past the opinion article pieces.
Simply not true. Opinion pieces can be perfectly solid sources of information as long as they use proper sourcing. Your assertion that every survey is biased and skewed is a smoke screen.
Tell you what, let's meet up here in ten years and see where science has taken us on this subject.
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Canada11321 Posts
On September 21 2014 04:09 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 04:00 Falling wrote:
@Squat.
Your first link is childhood abuse- emotional and sexual. I have no doubt abuse is extremely damaging to a child's development, but I do not think anyone is defending emotional and sexual abuse (or physical abuse for that matter). Abuse was categorized as a suitcase term for a variety of damaging behaviours, corporal punishment included. Regardless, we can completely ignore it and the point still stands. There are plenty of resources out there for the curious. A simple google search and an hour of research will dispel most doubts, I'd wager.
That may be so, but Nyxisto's link:
But, Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents' self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.
"The act of corporal punishment itself is different across parents - parents vary in how frequently they use it, how forcefully they administer it, how emotionally aroused they are when they do it, and whether they combine it with other techniques. Each of these qualities of corporal punishment can determine which child-mediated processes are activated, and, in turn, which outcomes may be realized," Gershoff concludes.
The meta-analysis also demonstrates that the frequency and severity of the corporal punishment matters. The more often or more harshly a child was hit, the more likely they are to be aggressive or to have mental health problems.
To me, looks like execution is everything- how it is implemented. Situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship... I submit that is the key factor. And the second paragraph is exactly what turns mild discipline into harsh discipline/abuse, all dependent on how it is administered. Is it punishment or abuse- it depends what the parent is doing. But that's true of any discipline. Explanation or emotional abuse with a torrent of insults. Grounding for a little while, or locking in the basement. Whether something is abusive or discipline stands and falls on the frequency and the forcefulness of it (and then combined with the relationship of the parent outside of disciplining.)
Now, I understand her ultimate conclusion is we can't be sure how parents will administer, and so as we have found negative effects of abusive administration, and haven't found definite positive evidence for a milder form corporate discipline, we're not going to recommend. I suspect its efficacy is highly dependent on relationship and infrequency (though consistency), and mild forcefulness. But how do you strain out the chaff to test for a very specific form of mild corporate punishment (used in conjunction with other methods) rather than testing for all cases of physical contact? If their studies are including parents that beat their children under big tent "Corporal Punishment," then I have no doubt that they are going to find all sort of problems.
But it strikes me that the entire thing is rather difficult to ascertain if they are so reliant on self-reporting. A parent could very well use the right language, but in action actually use harsh discipline. Truman Show cameras? Even advocates for spanking worry that their words could be twisted to self-justify an abuser. I can see why the APA would likely need overwhelming evidence to even hesitantly recommend mild spanking. Abuse is really, really terrible and no-one wants to give those people ammunition.
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You people really live in your own little fantasy world, don't you? There's a lot of kids these days acting more like Cartman from South Park and less like "The Brady Bunch" ironically right around when this movement of anti-spanking began to spread.
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On September 21 2014 04:48 sCCrooked wrote:You people really live in your own little fantasy world, don't you? There's a lot of kids these days acting more like Cartman from South Park and less like "The Brady Bunch" ironically right around when this movement of anti-spanking began to spread.
Nah, they always existed, but now there is internet.
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On September 21 2014 04:48 sCCrooked wrote:You people really live in your own little fantasy world, don't you? There's a lot of kids these days acting more like Cartman from South Park and less like "The Brady Bunch" ironically right around when this movement of anti-spanking began to spread.
nope
more people finish school, less violence on a day to day level (this includes fights between children and young adults), less crime and we are basically better off than we ever were. we are just so perfect in every way that the few idiots with issues stand out more.
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On September 21 2014 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high. The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotionsOpinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning. http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brainThis bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdfHere's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money. You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model.
It's like you've never taken a statistics class despite all your claims to be a 'scientific' person who is familiar with 'scientific reasoning' and dismisses fluff 'opinion.' You can get a statistically significant result with a sample size of 600. Would you argue that a sample size of 1 million vs a sample size of 1 billion would somehow invalidate a statistical difference of multiple percentage points? Don't be stupid.
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EPT
