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On October 15 2014 19:53 Snotling wrote:Also I'd like to point out this article frome the University of New Hampshire Correlation between spanking and IQ. It seems you actually can slap your children silly :/ http://phys.org/news173077612.htmlThe two main findings in case of tldr. More and explanation inside the article Show nested quote +IQs of children ages 2 to 4 who were not spanked were 5 points higher four years later than the IQs of those who were spanked. The IQs of children ages 5 to 9 years old who were not spanked were 2.8 points higher four years later than the IQs of children the same age who were spanked. Show nested quote +Straus also found a lower national average IQ in nations in which spanking was more prevalent. His analysis indicates the strongest link between corporal punishment and IQ was for those whose parents continued to use corporal punishment even when they were teenagers.
Correlation != causation.
Secondarily, perhaps those with lower IQ's (a flawed test of intelligence, at best) are more prone to violence towards their misbehaving children. Generally speaking, you're not going to have an intelligent offspring from a pair of unintelligent parents.
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Correlation!=Causation is not an argument to dismiss empirical evidence and scientific research. Jesus why does this come up in every thread.
And your second statement is only true for affluent families, as http://pss.sagepub.com/content/14/6/623 this research suggests.
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On October 16 2014 02:45 Nyxisto wrote:Correlation!=Causation is not an argument to dismiss empirical evidence and scientific research. Jesus why does this come up in every thread. And your second statement is only true for affluent families, as http://pss.sagepub.com/content/14/6/623 this research suggests.
I hear numerous suggestions but see no abstracts. If you're going to make a statement, the burden of proof is upon you.
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I never got spanked. Probably my parents didn't want me to learn that violence is ok. In my late childhood/early "adulthood" I've gotten hit and beaten up many times, but I never have hit the attacker back.
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On October 16 2014 02:48 Zerste wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 02:45 Nyxisto wrote:Correlation!=Causation is not an argument to dismiss empirical evidence and scientific research. Jesus why does this come up in every thread. And your second statement is only true for affluent families, as http://pss.sagepub.com/content/14/6/623 this research suggests. I hear numerous suggestions but see no abstracts. If you're going to make a statement, the burden of proof is upon you.
The thread is already full of proof that spanking is not doing anything good for your children, or what are you asking for?
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On October 16 2014 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 02:48 Zerste wrote:On October 16 2014 02:45 Nyxisto wrote:Correlation!=Causation is not an argument to dismiss empirical evidence and scientific research. Jesus why does this come up in every thread. And your second statement is only true for affluent families, as http://pss.sagepub.com/content/14/6/623 this research suggests. I hear numerous suggestions but see no abstracts. If you're going to make a statement, the burden of proof is upon you. The thread is already full of proof that spanking is not doing anything good for your children, or what are you asking for?
I'm not saying that spanking is good for anybody, parents included. I'm stating that saying something like "It seems you actually can slap your children silly :/" is ill informed and irresponsible at best.
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On September 30 2014 02:10 LaughingTulkas wrote:
I've not seen a succinct case for 'how to discipline' so I guess I'm going to add my 2 cents.
1. The child should be given a chance to behave first. (TALK to the child: "I understand that you are upset but you cannot hit your sister. Nobody likes to be hit, and so you shouldn't hit either. Your sister is part of our family and family loves each other").
2. Discipline should be preceded by a clear warning: "You know that you aren't supposed to do that, now you have a choice. You can chose to do the right thing, or you can chose the wrong thing that leads to discipline."
3. Discipline should never be done in anger. Calmly talk to the child and make it clear that the discipline is a result of their choices. "I'm sorry that you made that bad choice to hit your sister again and chose discipline."
4. Discipline should be consistent. You cannot say that their choice will have consequences and then back out or bargain. This sends mixed messages to the child and is very negative.
5. Discipline should be followed by love. After discipline, you make it clear to the child that you love them and have a time of hugging/affection. Also maybe a good time to re-emphasize the lesson: "Families love each other and your sister is part of your family. We don't hit people, especially family."
Notice that I did not specifically say that the discipline is "spanking" although it can be. Discipline for different children is different. One child might wilt if you look at him with disapproval while another may be very strong-willed and rebellious. Substituting "spanking" for discipline above should not be a first response, but may be necessary with some children. All this, wish a particular emphasis on the warning. Discipline for rebellion and not mistakes or the usual sibling framing/tattling. If you're going to continually threaten spanking and never go through with it, might as well not spank at all. You probably put it better than I could've showing the stepwise purposes and pitfalls with the swat.
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On October 15 2014 19:53 Snotling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Well I wasn't slapped even once, and I'm pretty sure it's the same for almost all of my friends. And it turned out very well for them :D. Well educated, good jobs, good relationships, well behaved. Also I'd like to point out this article frome the University of New Hampshire Correlation between spanking and IQ. It seems you actually can slap your children silly :/ http://phys.org/news173077612.htmlThe two main findings in case of tldr. More and explanation inside the article Show nested quote +IQs of children ages 2 to 4 who were not spanked were 5 points higher four years later than the IQs of those who were spanked. The IQs of children ages 5 to 9 years old who were not spanked were 2.8 points higher four years later than the IQs of children the same age who were spanked. Show nested quote +Straus also found a lower national average IQ in nations in which spanking was more prevalent. His analysis indicates the strongest link between corporal punishment and IQ was for those whose parents continued to use corporal punishment even when they were teenagers.
You can obviously find un-spanked children who grew up well (like you and your friends). I'm sure there well grown up spanked children around aswell.
That study is worthless, it's a correlational study.
You can argue that smarter kids behave better/are smarter at hiding their misdeed, so dumber kids end up getting more spanked. (You are implying less spanking creates smarter children, when the opposite is perfectly reasonable. In my opinion the second explanation is WAYYYY more likely)
Punishment to kids should be done with the aim to discipline them with the belief you are making their lives better on the future. This is love.
Punishment to kids because you lost your temper without reason is abuse, and the trait of a weak minded person.
I also think (spanking or not) people who are not willing to discipline their children will end up with spoil brats and regret it in the future.
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You can argue that smarter kids behave better/are smarter at hiding their misdeed, so dumber kids end up getting more spanked.
I highly doubt that. Considering that highly gifted people often do have great problems with authorities and underchallenge, which can lead into behavioural disorder, I assume that smartness doesn't save you from punishment.
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On October 15 2014 15:21 tshi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 13:59 Animzor wrote:
Interesting how people who got spanked are actually defending that sort of behaviour. Reminds me of the circumsision thread. Nobody wants to grow up to realize that something fucked up happened to them and in many cases they are going to do the same shit to their children to solidify their belief that it is OK behaviour or to take back the power that was taken from them as children. It's the same thing with child abuse and rape. It is cyclical, people who get abused as children are likely to abuse their own children. Very sad. This is bullshit. You're oversimplifying a complex situation to the point of no longer adding anything useful to the discussion.
I just ended the discussion, refuse to believe it if you wish.
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you didnt end anything, you just made yourself look ignorant and rude
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I think the law prohibits parents from hitting their children here as well. Doesn't hold back anyone, it's basically just there, so child abuse is more easily judgeable. Also, I'm pretty sure in Sweden households, most families are not spending their days estimating whether they will need some extra loan at the end of the month or not. If the average salary in E-Uropean countries were 3 times more, I'm sure parents would be much more patient with their children.
Anyway, imagine this scenario: your boy is throwing a tantrum in a kid store, because he wants that lego. He's crying, shouting, calling his mother (aka your wife) all kinds of bad things (how do they learn these so young... I don't know), maybe even starts to throw things around, because he's convinced he deserves it. What do you do?
Buy the lego? Even if your wallet is endless, you'll suffer with that child in the future?
Try to reason with him? Yeah, I think it's been discussed plenty here that you can't reason with a little kid. There's a reason you don't see 4 years old voting during elections.
Shout at him? Maybe it doesn't seem harmful, but I'm certainly someone who takes shouting really badly.
Hit him? He will stop (except the crying part) and now follow you. Sure, you hurt him; you used violence. But the next time the thought of doing such a show again, he'll remember it, and probably won'T do it. Also, you can always try to explain it later, you don't have to leave it at "you can'T do that because I'll hit you hard".
Drag him out/Ignore him? Yes, please. There's nothing more pleasant than traveling with parents who use this technique. The best part is when someone asks them to tone their children down a bit and they are offended that someone is trying to tell them how to raise their child.
Never understood the fuss about slaps. Me and my friends all have stories of being slapped, but almost all of them can be summed up with "I was really bad/stupid" + a good laugh.
All of this being said, I don't think I'd ever slap my children, it would be too hard on me, but I don't judge anyone for it. Being careless and utterly selfish at a young age is certainly not unheard of, and it's extremely hard on single dads/moms. Your teen might respect what you do to them and help you at wherever he/she can, but a 5 years old just sees that lego and wants it. You can't expect someone who spends his days eating, playing and sleeping to understand that you keep working extra, you have to make arrangements with the repair-man, you have to cook for him, you have to take care of the money and on top of that, you need some rest.
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On October 16 2014 23:18 Volband wrote:
I think the law prohibits parents from hitting their children here as well. Doesn't hold back anyone, it's basically just there, so child abuse is more easily judgeable. Also, I'm pretty sure in Sweden households, most families are not spending their days estimating whether they will need some extra loan at the end of the month or not. If the average salary in E-Uropean countries were 3 times more, I'm sure parents would be much more patient with their children.
Anyway, imagine this scenario: your boy is throwing a tantrum in a kid store, because he wants that lego. He's crying, shouting, calling his mother (aka your wife) all kinds of bad things (how do they learn these so young... I don't know), maybe even starts to throw things around, because he's convinced he deserves it. What do you do?
Buy the lego? Even if your wallet is endless, you'll suffer with that child in the future?
Try to reason with him? Yeah, I think it's been discussed plenty here that you can't reason with a little kid. There's a reason you don't see 4 years old voting during elections.
Shout at him? Maybe it doesn't seem harmful, but I'm certainly someone who takes shouting really badly.
Hit him? He will stop (except the crying part) and now follow you. Sure, you hurt him; you used violence. But the next time the thought of doing such a show again, he'll remember it, and probably won'T do it. Also, you can always try to explain it later, you don't have to leave it at "you can'T do that because I'll hit you hard".
Drag him out/Ignore him? Yes, please. There's nothing more pleasant than traveling with parents who use this technique. The best part is when someone asks them to tone their children down a bit and they are offended that someone is trying to tell them how to raise their child.
Never understood the fuss about slaps. Me and my friends all have stories of being slapped, but almost all of them can be summed up with "I was really bad/stupid" + a good laugh.
All of this being said, I don't think I'd ever slap my children, it would be too hard on me, but I don't judge anyone for it. Being careless and utterly selfish at a young age is certainly not unheard of, and it's extremely hard on single dads/moms. Your teen might respect what you do to them and help you at wherever he/she can, but a 5 years old just sees that lego and wants it. You can't expect someone who spends his days eating, playing and sleeping to understand that you keep working extra, you have to make arrangements with the repair-man, you have to cook for him, you have to take care of the money and on top of that, you need some rest.
i was never spanked and i wouldnt have evr dared to directly insult either of my parents. your child wil only call u names if youre a failure at parenting.
also if you spank your children ritualisticly and not impulsevily, as in certain forms of misbehaviour reult in spanking, you are simply sick in the head. you are hitting your child, you are humiliating it, and youre somehow feeling youre doing the right thing? humiliating your own child. u sick fucks think about it
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I don't think we imply you have to spank/slap your children ritualistickly.
And you are right, calling someone names is actually childish. Wonder where the expression is coming from...
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I also don't know what's wrong with all your kids that they apparently devastate all kinds of stores and houses and act out like maniacs on a weekly basis. We don't hit our kids, still our stuff is still intact. A miracle, right?
If your child is too active spend some time with it and see that the kid gets enough physical activity. Reduces both childhood obesity and the chance that the child will act out.
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I don't have kids, just made a hypothetical scenario, which has not been answered, aside from the usual mantra of "hitting kids is bad, ok?".
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On October 17 2014 02:04 Volband wrote:
I don't have kids, just made a hypothetical scenario, which has not been answered, aside from the usual mantra of "hitting kids is bad, ok?".
actually the "dont hit your kids" side provided numerous articles and studys throughout this thread, while the "hitting is ok" side was trying to dismiss them, providing no data themselves.
and i dont think we have to "proove" that hitting your kid is bad. in fact, i think you should "proove" that there is any benefit in doing so. otherwise why do it?
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United States24751 Posts
On October 17 2014 16:40 Snotling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 02:04 Volband wrote:
I don't have kids, just made a hypothetical scenario, which has not been answered, aside from the usual mantra of "hitting kids is bad, ok?". actually the "dont hit your kids" side provided numerous articles and studys throughout this thread, while the "hitting is ok" side was trying to dismiss them, providing no data themselves. and i dont think we have to "proove" that hitting your kid is bad. in fact, i think you should "proove" that there is any benefit in doing so. otherwise why do it?
The thing I haven't seen (granted I haven't read the whole thread) is a description of how to properly discipline a child when the basic procedures described earlier aren't working. I've seen some posts providing overall guidelines for nonphysical discipline of children, emphasizing things like warning the child, calmly describing what the repercussions will be for poor behavior (e.g., taking toys away, not bringing the child anywhere fun), and following through on the punishments you promise if the child still misbehaves. However, I haven't seen what you do when those methods don't seem to be working (for some kids, they will be more than sufficient. For others, they won't).
What I have seen is a lot of answers about how parents are adults and children are young, and therefore you are a bad parent if you are unsuccessful with the above method of discipline, and resort to violence. But I believe there are some children who don't sufficiently respond to basic punishments of toys being taken away, not being taken to fun places/events, and calm verbal expressions of dissatisfaction. Some kids, when they do something "bad" and you take privileges away from them, respond by breaking things or taking other more severe action. It is almost as though you are challenging them to see who will blink first... and there are only so many toys you can take away.
That's not to say the only response to a child like that is to start smacking them necessarily, but I think those arguing that spanking is never necessary have not done enough to justify the claim that there are always superior alternatives.
I didn't bring up the topic I've brought up in the past where spanking can be an effective tool to stop young children who are not able to think at all logically from doing something dangerous that will get them hit by a car, electrocuted, etc, because I already know what the response will be. "The way to stop little kids from doing dangerous things is to hold their hand and make sure they don't do it." I won't bother going down this road again.
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I thought this was a rather beautifully written and powerful article attacking the use of spanking from a different angle
Spanking is a sex act
That is the one that did it for me, more than any other criticism of spanking so far.
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yeah I posted that article a few pages ago, thought it was pretty good.
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EPT
