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On October 17 2014 20:27 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 16:40 Snotling wrote:On October 17 2014 02:04 Volband wrote:
I don't have kids, just made a hypothetical scenario, which has not been answered, aside from the usual mantra of "hitting kids is bad, ok?". actually the "dont hit your kids" side provided numerous articles and studys throughout this thread, while the "hitting is ok" side was trying to dismiss them, providing no data themselves. and i dont think we have to "proove" that hitting your kid is bad. in fact, i think you should "proove" that there is any benefit in doing so. otherwise why do it? The thing I haven't seen (granted I haven't read the whole thread) is a description of how to properly discipline a child when the basic procedures described earlier aren't working. I've seen some posts providing overall guidelines for nonphysical discipline of children, emphasizing things like warning the child, calmly describing what the repercussions will be for poor behavior (e.g., taking toys away, not bringing the child anywhere fun), and following through on the punishments you promise if the child still misbehaves. However, I haven't seen what you do when those methods don't seem to be working (for some kids, they will be more than sufficient. For others, they won't).
Well if we're talking about very young children, if they try to break something you take it away, if they're really upset they'll usually start crying for a time. If that doesn't help you put them in their playpen. If they're too old for that you can start talking to them. I don't know if American kids are on steroids but I just don't understand your problem. The fact that we have abandoned that kind of punishment for decades speaks for itself. It is apparently not necessary and as already confirmed not helpful. I can't tell you exactly what kind of magic it is that we are using but if your kid starts setting your house on fire because it's angry what you need is a child psychologist, not a belt.
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On October 16 2014 03:11 Piste wrote:
I never got spanked. Probably my parents didn't want me to learn that violence is ok. In my late childhood/early "adulthood" I've gotten hit and beaten up many times, but I never have hit the attacker back.
Is this supposed to be an arguement for or against spanking?
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On October 17 2014 20:41 Thereisnosaurus wrote:I thought this was a rather beautifully written and powerful article attacking the use of spanking from a different angle Spanking is a sex actThat is the one that did it for me, more than any other criticism of spanking so far.
Spanking doesn't have to be a light slap on the butt. Its better defined as mild corporal punishment in general.
I never got spanked if you use the definition that it has to be a light slap on the butt. But I did get slapped in the back of the head or on the backs of my hands a few times.
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United States24751 Posts
On October 18 2014 00:44 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 20:27 micronesia wrote:On October 17 2014 16:40 Snotling wrote:On October 17 2014 02:04 Volband wrote:
I don't have kids, just made a hypothetical scenario, which has not been answered, aside from the usual mantra of "hitting kids is bad, ok?". actually the "dont hit your kids" side provided numerous articles and studys throughout this thread, while the "hitting is ok" side was trying to dismiss them, providing no data themselves. and i dont think we have to "proove" that hitting your kid is bad. in fact, i think you should "proove" that there is any benefit in doing so. otherwise why do it? The thing I haven't seen (granted I haven't read the whole thread) is a description of how to properly discipline a child when the basic procedures described earlier aren't working. I've seen some posts providing overall guidelines for nonphysical discipline of children, emphasizing things like warning the child, calmly describing what the repercussions will be for poor behavior (e.g., taking toys away, not bringing the child anywhere fun), and following through on the punishments you promise if the child still misbehaves. However, I haven't seen what you do when those methods don't seem to be working (for some kids, they will be more than sufficient. For others, they won't). Well if we're talking about very young children, if they try to break something you take it away, if they're really upset they'll usually start crying for a time. If that doesn't help you put them in their playpen. For little kids, yea, you can do things like that. I was thinking of kids that are too old for putting in their playpen, which you cover next.
If they're too old for that you can start talking to them. As I said above, in this case conventional "talking to them" isn't working... the child's behavior is not being corrected... taking away games/toys/privileges isn't doing it either. I don't know if American kids are on steroids but I just don't understand your problem. What does kids being on steroids have to do with it?
The fact that we have abandoned that kind of punishment for decades speaks for itself. The fact that you have "abandoned that kind of punishment" is irrelevant. I am asking for an explanation of how to discipline your children with spanking for more difficult children and more difficult situations. It is apparently not necessary and as already confirmed not helpful. I can't tell you exactly what kind of magic it is that we are using but if your kid starts setting your house on fire because it's angry what you need is a child psychologist, not a belt. I'm not talking about kids setting their house on fire (necessarily). I'm also not talking about using a belt... the strongest form of physical punishment I would consider potentially reasonable would be that which is currently permitted by child protective services in my country, which is an open handed smack to a limited number of places, and with other limitations I won't go in to.
You basically did exactly the same thing I described in my previous post... which wasn't very helpful.
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I'm just not sure what kind of response you are expecting. We don't use physical punishment here and our children still grow up to be normal adults. If they take something they are not supposed to we take it away, if they don't understand something we talk to them, that's just sufficient, I'm not making it up, spanking is considered to be child abuse here.
It's like asking "proof to me that society works if you don't go to church every day!" Yeah we kind of stopped doing that a few decades ago and everything's fine I guess.
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On October 18 2014 08:17 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm just not sure what kind of response you are expecting. We don't use physical punishment here and our children still grow up to be normal adults. If they take something they are not supposed to we take it away, if they don't understand something we talk to them, that's just sufficient, I'm not making it up, spanking is considered to be child abuse here.
It's like asking "proof to me that society works if you don't go to church every day!" Yeah we kind of stopped doing that a few decades ago and everything's fine I guess.
He's saying that non-violent methods are not successful 100% of the time, and wants to know what you do when they fail.
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You can discipline your children by taking their toy away, their favourite video game, give them house arrest for a day or two , basically anything that doesn't involve beating your children. And it actually does work all the time, many nations are not employing corporal punishment for a very long time now and manage to raise their children. I know I sound like a broken record but you seem to be unable to understand this fact. It simply is not necessary. You are doing it because it is your tradition, not because their is any factual evidence for its effectiveness or necessity.
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On October 18 2014 01:22 Chewbacca. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 03:11 Piste wrote:
I never got spanked. Probably my parents didn't want me to learn that violence is ok. In my late childhood/early "adulthood" I've gotten hit and beaten up many times, but I never have hit the attacker back. Is this supposed to be an arguement for or against spanking?
Not related probably. That falls in the category of being unable to defend yourself. And if you are able to do so then not reacting is just plain dumb.
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On October 18 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
You can discipline your children by taking their toy away, their favourite video game, give them house arrest for a day or two , basically anything that doesn't involve beating your children. And it actually does work all the time, many nations are not employing corporal punishment for a very long time now and manage to raise their children. I know I sound like a broken record but you seem to be unable to understand this fact. It simply is not necessary. You are doing it because it is your tradition, not because their is any factual evidence for its effectiveness or necessity.
Yeah, it can work on a lot of kids. But it does not work on all of them. You seem to not have experience with any truly bratty children if you believe taking toys away is foolproof. There are children that take those non-violent discipline methods as challenges, and will behave worse in response.
Not that spanking is foolproof either, but its good to have one last option before shipping the brat off to military school or something.
You also act like spanking is our method of choice. I agree with you that parents who resort to that immediately every time are bad parents. I agree that calling it discipline doesn't give you free reign to just wail on the kid. But to say that it is impossible for spanking to ever be necessary is disingenuous.
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United States24751 Posts
On October 18 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
You can discipline your children by taking their toy away, their favourite video game, give them house arrest for a day or two , basically anything that doesn't involve beating your children. And it actually does work all the time,
It most certainly does not work all the time. I'm glad it apparently worked for you, but claiming it works for everyone in your country is pretty hard to believe. Again, I'm not necessarily advocating using spanking as a punishment the first time taking a toy away doesn't work... I'm simply asking for how to discipline your children when your initial method isn't successful. You haven't been able to answer this... which is somewhat undermining the point you are trying to make. Trying to repeatedly hide behind "well it works in my country" is just increasing the divide between people in this thread who agree with you and people who don't.
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I already answered the question. We do exactly everything that you do minus corporal punishment. What is the kid supposed to do that it doesn't do if you resort to corporal punishment? We don't actually demand complete obedience from our kids. If they're mad then that's okay. Besides that I fail to understand what corporal punishment is supposed to do in the first place.
If you think it is okay and ethical to beat/spank/whatever children as part of some kind of obedience training then go ahead, but please stop demanding some mysterious alternative from me.
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On October 18 2014 10:15 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
You can discipline your children by taking their toy away, their favourite video game, give them house arrest for a day or two , basically anything that doesn't involve beating your children. And it actually does work all the time, It most certainly does not work all the time. I'm glad it apparently worked for you, but claiming it works for everyone in your country is pretty hard to believe. Again, I'm not necessarily advocating using spanking as a punishment the first time taking a toy away doesn't work... I'm simply asking for how to discipline your children when your initial method isn't successful. You haven't been able to answer this... which is somewhat undermining the point you are trying to make. Trying to repeatedly hide behind "well it works in my country" is just increasing the divide between people in this thread who agree with you and people who don't.
Well the answer is a good old fashioned spanking then isnt it. I got slapped here and there but only when i was old enough to know what I was doing wrong and still did it anyway, which is fine by me.
Maybe also when I was not young enough to remember; but hey, I dont remember. And personally I've never felt abused and we tend to have pretty close families and I take a 20 hours trip every year to visit them.
Spanking smaller children makes no sense at all, but every so often if your non corporal methods fail and then do. I dont see the harm in a whack here or there. As long as it doesnt injure and just stings, it can be pretty effective. Some people have a problem with that but I dont see why not. Its the same to a kid as stubbing their toe if you think about it.
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United States24751 Posts
On October 18 2014 10:21 Nyxisto wrote:
I already answered the question. We do exactly everything that you do minus corporal punishment. What is the kid supposed to do that it doesn't do if you resort to corporal punishment? We don't actually demand complete obedience from our kids. If they're mad then that's okay. Besides that I fail to understand what corporal punishment is supposed to do in the first place.
It seems like you and I have different expectations of how our kids should behave. In my case, I expect a method of discipline that ensures the child will ultimately improve their behavior, even if they are rebellious by nature (I recognize some children have problems requiring professional psychological treatment which is beyond the scope of this conversation). In your case, you will explain to your kid that what they did is wrong, implement a punishment such as taking away their toys and other privileges, etc. If the child continues the bad behavior at that point, then you will just live with it because you don't demand complete obedience from your kids. Or alternately, taking away their favorite toys and telling them they will no longer be allowed to go to do fun activity X 100% guarantees the bad behavior will be corrected in the future (kind of doubtful).
I can't believe that mindset is universal in your region, but it is what you have argued for whether you mean it or not. I'm not trying to find proof that smacking is ok, or that smacking is not ok. I'm trying to understand how to utilize a nonviolent parenting strategy that is complete, rather than only working on the more receptive children.
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On October 18 2014 10:21 Nyxisto wrote:
I already answered the question. We do exactly everything that you do minus corporal punishment. What is the kid supposed to do that it doesn't do if you resort to corporal punishment? We don't actually demand complete obedience from our kids. If they're mad then that's okay. Besides that I fail to understand what corporal punishment is supposed to do in the first place.
If you think it is okay and ethical to beat/spank/whatever children as part of some kind of obedience training then go ahead, but please stop demanding some mysterious alternative from me.
Spanking is best used as a last resort. It doesn't need to hurt bad at all, just a little sting will suffice. It gets the message across to the kid that they are seriously pushing it, and whatever it is they're doing needs to stop.
I think its good to have one last option before you sign the kid up for one of those disciplinary boot camps, or just dis-own him.
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For all those who are saying "we've not smacked our kids for decades and we raised them fine" you don't actually know that they're fine. What if they're all on average worse-behaved children than in the past, and have further problems in their adult lives, all brought about by not being smacked? I don't have any proof one way or the other but it's a pretty big leap to say "we haven't smacked kids in my country for decades" to "our kids are all just as ok as with smacking, or better".
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Besides that what you're saying has already been debunked by studies that have repeatedly been posted in this thread, yes I really fear I have turned out spoiled because the two persons I relied on most in my young live have not smacked me around. That is indeed a very reasonable thing to believe
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On October 18 2014 12:52 Nyxisto wrote:
Besides that what you're saying has already been debunked by studies that have repeatedly been posted in this thread, yes I really fear I have turned out spoiled because the two persons I relied on most in my young live have not smacked me around. That is indeed a very reasonable thing to believe
Most of the studies I looked at only suggested that beating children had a correlation to increased aggression in later years, nothing about improved behaviour by smacking or not smacking, and most of them said something along the lines of "more moderate cases of smacking had little to no noticeable effect", in other words nothing statistically significant. If I perhaps missed some studies, and I didn't check them all, then feel free to re-link them and I will look again. And it's not even a case of being more spoiled, but just a general lowering of discipline and behaviour trends on average, as it's hard to look at this case-by-case and try to establish results.
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On October 18 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
You can discipline your children by taking their toy away, their favourite video game, give them house arrest for a day or two , basically anything that doesn't involve beating your children. And it actually does work all the time, many nations are not employing corporal punishment for a very long time now and manage to raise their children. I know I sound like a broken record but you seem to be unable to understand this fact. It simply is not necessary. You are doing it because it is your tradition, not because their is any factual evidence for its effectiveness or necessity.
I can confirm this was the most preferred way when I was being raised. I don't remember much spanking but there was probably just a little bit. Either way, I'm very proud of the poll which represents Europe. Shame on other continents. 
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@micronesia
You acutally answered your question by yourself. If the non-violent discipline methods don't work, you will have to live with it as a parent. Of course you have to interfere, before something really bad happens, but this is possible without intended violence (holding the hands as you said would be one possibiliy). Actually there is no proof the problem doesn't get solved in the long run (especially considering that most of the brought up scenarios are short termed problems), as it isn't proofed that it could be solved by spanking.
In the experience of many spanking may have looked like the solution of the problem but perhaps other factors in the parenting where the true parts, which made their parenting a longterm-success.
I often think that the urge to do something to solve a disciplinary problem shows a need of the parents but not of the child. As a parent you want to solve that problem as soon and as directly as possible because you worry about your childs future and because the problem stresses you out. But perhaps the child just needs the time to let your non-violent disciplinary methods and your other parenting methods (show love; talk and explain; be an example; take the questions and the critic of your child seriously; discuss instead of teaching - you may learn something, too) kick in.
The point of the anti-spanking fraction in this thread isn't that spanking necessarily has to be harmful, but there is no sign of it being useful in any way because it's proven to be possible to raise kids without corporal punishment successfully.
So why risc possible harm on body or psyche of your child by using corporal punishment without it being necessary or even useful?
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United States24751 Posts
On October 18 2014 22:13 fronkschnonk wrote:
@micronesia
You acutally answered your question by yourself. If the non-violent discipline methods don't work, you will have to live with it as a parent.
The rest of your post seems pretty reasonable, but this was the part I said I can't simply agree with. This is essentially a 'hands off' approach to parenting you take up if your initial punishments (take away toys etc) don't work. This seems to be an extremely backwards lesson for the child... that resisting your discipline gets them what they want. Perhaps if I saw this in action I would understand what you mean better, and it wouldn't be as unreasonable of a suggestions as it currently seems.
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EPT
