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Any PUA discussion is banned from page 42 and onwards. |
On May 31 2014 09:31 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 09:22 Clbull wrote:I literally spent 40 minutes rewriting this post because I'm worried I'm going to say something ban-worthy. I was alerted to this case after reading a Facebook post pretty much blaming 'rape culture' and the idea that men feel entitled to sex simply because of one mentally ill 22 year old virgin's behaviour. I hate the MRA and Feminist responses to Elliot Rodger's crimes. With the scaremongering coming from both groups in regards to their skewed gender stereotypes (i.e. 'women are sluts', 'men will rape you'), the only thing they've accomplished is make each gender distrust each other even more. This quote from Rodger (page 84 of his 140 page 'autobiography') is one of the main things that fuelled this argument. Females truly have something mentally wrong with them. Their minds are flawed, and at this point in my life I was beginning to see it. The more I explored my college town of Isla Vista, the more ridiculousness I witnessed. All of the hot, beautiful girls walked around with obnoxious, tough jock-type men who partied all the time and acted crazy. They should be going for intelligent gentlemen such as myself. Women are sexually attracted to the wrong type of man. This is a major flaw in the very foundation of humanity. It is completely and utterly wrong, in every sense of the word. As these truths fully dawned on me, I became deeply disturbed by them. Deeply disturbed, offended, and traumatized. As a guy in a similar situation to him (22 years old, unsuccessful with ladies, still a virgin,) this quote disgusts me. There is one thing I will say though; society has taught us that friendliness, respect, placing somebody on a pedestal and showering them with material gifts is the key to winning a person's heart.But back to what I think of this incident? After reading quite a bit of his autobiography to see what made him tick, I'm under the conclusion that it could have been a parenting or schooling issue. He was bullied by both boys and girls rather harshly while at school and even summer camp since the age of 12. From the sound of it, it also seemed like his family was more concerned with his MMORPG gaming habits rather than his situation at school and it seemed like teaching staff didn't help him. When does a person deserves unconditional respect, friendliness, being placed on pedestal and free gifts anyways? If you want these things, you better be some god of a religion, my parents, a very close friends of mine that we've being through thick and thin. If you are ANYWAYS else, its all fair game. So only give someone the appropriate amount of respect that they deserve.
Every woman I have asked for relationship advice has said the same thing. Get to know her first, become very good friends with her then see where it goes from there.
Then you build up affection for them and it becomes one big mess of oneitis because if she rejects you, it's going to hurt. Romantic stories in literature, films, television, music and whatnot seem to follow similar tropes. Boy meets girl, boy and girl become close, boy gains affection for girl, either she returns it or doesn't, then something really complicated happens but in the end they always end up together.
I'll give you an example of a lesson I learned the hard way a couple of years ago. If a girl rejects you, don't continue to pursue her. It led to me being labelled a creep at school and being picked on by other girls.
As for the 'showering with gifts' part. If that's not true, why are we pretty much expected to partake in holidays like Valentines Day if we have a girlfriend?
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On May 31 2014 09:48 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 09:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 31 2014 09:22 Clbull wrote:I literally spent 40 minutes rewriting this post because I'm worried I'm going to say something ban-worthy. I was alerted to this case after reading a Facebook post pretty much blaming 'rape culture' and the idea that men feel entitled to sex simply because of one mentally ill 22 year old virgin's behaviour. I hate the MRA and Feminist responses to Elliot Rodger's crimes. With the scaremongering coming from both groups in regards to their skewed gender stereotypes (i.e. 'women are sluts', 'men will rape you'), the only thing they've accomplished is make each gender distrust each other even more. This quote from Rodger (page 84 of his 140 page 'autobiography') is one of the main things that fuelled this argument. Females truly have something mentally wrong with them. Their minds are flawed, and at this point in my life I was beginning to see it. The more I explored my college town of Isla Vista, the more ridiculousness I witnessed. All of the hot, beautiful girls walked around with obnoxious, tough jock-type men who partied all the time and acted crazy. They should be going for intelligent gentlemen such as myself. Women are sexually attracted to the wrong type of man. This is a major flaw in the very foundation of humanity. It is completely and utterly wrong, in every sense of the word. As these truths fully dawned on me, I became deeply disturbed by them. Deeply disturbed, offended, and traumatized. As a guy in a similar situation to him (22 years old, unsuccessful with ladies, still a virgin,) this quote disgusts me. There is one thing I will say though; society has taught us that friendliness, respect, placing somebody on a pedestal and showering them with material gifts is the key to winning a person's heart.But back to what I think of this incident? After reading quite a bit of his autobiography to see what made him tick, I'm under the conclusion that it could have been a parenting or schooling issue. He was bullied by both boys and girls rather harshly while at school and even summer camp since the age of 12. From the sound of it, it also seemed like his family was more concerned with his MMORPG gaming habits rather than his situation at school and it seemed like teaching staff didn't help him. When does a person deserves unconditional respect, friendliness, being placed on pedestal and free gifts anyways? If you want these things, you better be some god of a religion, my parents, a very close friends of mine that we've being through thick and thin. If you are ANYWAYS else, its all fair game. So only give someone the appropriate amount of respect that they deserve. Every woman I have asked for relationship advice has said the same thing. Get to know her first, become very good friends with her then see where it goes from there. Then you build up affection for them and it becomes one big mess of oneitis because if she rejects you, it's going to hurt. Romantic stories in literature, films, television, music and whatnot seem to follow similar tropes. Boy meets girl, boy and girl become close, boy gains affection for girl, either she returns it or doesn't, then something really complicated happens but in the end they always end up together. I'll give you an example of a lesson I learned the hard way a couple of years ago. If a girl rejects you, don't continue to pursue her. It led to me being labelled a creep at school and being picked on by other girls. As for the 'showering with gifts' part. If that's not true, why are we pretty much expected to partake in holidays like Valentines Day if we have a girlfriend?
On Valentine Day, if you only give them gift on that particular day, does it mean that you only like that person for one day? Idk about you but if a person that I know deserves it, it doesn't matter on what day I perform my act of kindness. Beside all those holidays are designed by the marketing company for you to actually spend big buck to generate more revenue. Don't live under social stigma because others are forcing you, actually have a logical brain.
And on the relationship, yeah you are pretty much agreeing with me that one shouldn't invest too heavily emotionally so there is really isn't any argument between us at this point.
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On May 31 2014 09:48 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 09:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 31 2014 09:22 Clbull wrote:I literally spent 40 minutes rewriting this post because I'm worried I'm going to say something ban-worthy. I was alerted to this case after reading a Facebook post pretty much blaming 'rape culture' and the idea that men feel entitled to sex simply because of one mentally ill 22 year old virgin's behaviour. I hate the MRA and Feminist responses to Elliot Rodger's crimes. With the scaremongering coming from both groups in regards to their skewed gender stereotypes (i.e. 'women are sluts', 'men will rape you'), the only thing they've accomplished is make each gender distrust each other even more. This quote from Rodger (page 84 of his 140 page 'autobiography') is one of the main things that fuelled this argument. Females truly have something mentally wrong with them. Their minds are flawed, and at this point in my life I was beginning to see it. The more I explored my college town of Isla Vista, the more ridiculousness I witnessed. All of the hot, beautiful girls walked around with obnoxious, tough jock-type men who partied all the time and acted crazy. They should be going for intelligent gentlemen such as myself. Women are sexually attracted to the wrong type of man. This is a major flaw in the very foundation of humanity. It is completely and utterly wrong, in every sense of the word. As these truths fully dawned on me, I became deeply disturbed by them. Deeply disturbed, offended, and traumatized. As a guy in a similar situation to him (22 years old, unsuccessful with ladies, still a virgin,) this quote disgusts me. There is one thing I will say though; society has taught us that friendliness, respect, placing somebody on a pedestal and showering them with material gifts is the key to winning a person's heart.But back to what I think of this incident? After reading quite a bit of his autobiography to see what made him tick, I'm under the conclusion that it could have been a parenting or schooling issue. He was bullied by both boys and girls rather harshly while at school and even summer camp since the age of 12. From the sound of it, it also seemed like his family was more concerned with his MMORPG gaming habits rather than his situation at school and it seemed like teaching staff didn't help him. When does a person deserves unconditional respect, friendliness, being placed on pedestal and free gifts anyways? If you want these things, you better be some god of a religion, my parents, a very close friends of mine that we've being through thick and thin. If you are ANYWAYS else, its all fair game. So only give someone the appropriate amount of respect that they deserve. Every woman I have asked for relationship advice has said the same thing. Get to know her first, become very good friends with her then see where it goes from there. Then you build up affection for them and it becomes one big mess of oneitis because if she rejects you, it's going to hurt. Romantic stories in literature, films, television, music and whatnot seem to follow similar tropes. Boy meets girl, boy and girl become close, boy gains affection for girl, either she returns it or doesn't, then something really complicated happens but in the end they always end up together. I'll give you an example of a lesson I learned the hard way a couple of years ago. If a girl rejects you, don't continue to pursue her. It led to me being labelled a creep at school and being picked on by other girls. As for the 'showering with gifts' part. If that's not true, why are we pretty much expected to partake in holidays like Valentines Day if we have a girlfriend?
A man asking women for relationship advice is like a mouse asking a cat for a kiss. Your female friends don't have the empathy to understand how hard you try (even if they are misguided steps). Films on relationships are utter crap. Avoid them! They create unrealistic expectation.
With Valentines Day, it goes back to the role of men and women since the beginning of time where men were the provider. Think about the reverse, what if it was the women always providing for the male? It just doesn't really happen. There can never be perfect equality between the sexes. Just accept that the sexes are equal but in different ways. One being the provider and the other the care taker. Unless one day men can have babies lol.
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Canada2068 Posts
On May 31 2014 10:20 [X]Ken_D wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 09:48 Clbull wrote:On May 31 2014 09:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 31 2014 09:22 Clbull wrote:I literally spent 40 minutes rewriting this post because I'm worried I'm going to say something ban-worthy. I was alerted to this case after reading a Facebook post pretty much blaming 'rape culture' and the idea that men feel entitled to sex simply because of one mentally ill 22 year old virgin's behaviour. I hate the MRA and Feminist responses to Elliot Rodger's crimes. With the scaremongering coming from both groups in regards to their skewed gender stereotypes (i.e. 'women are sluts', 'men will rape you'), the only thing they've accomplished is make each gender distrust each other even more. This quote from Rodger (page 84 of his 140 page 'autobiography') is one of the main things that fuelled this argument. Females truly have something mentally wrong with them. Their minds are flawed, and at this point in my life I was beginning to see it. The more I explored my college town of Isla Vista, the more ridiculousness I witnessed. All of the hot, beautiful girls walked around with obnoxious, tough jock-type men who partied all the time and acted crazy. They should be going for intelligent gentlemen such as myself. Women are sexually attracted to the wrong type of man. This is a major flaw in the very foundation of humanity. It is completely and utterly wrong, in every sense of the word. As these truths fully dawned on me, I became deeply disturbed by them. Deeply disturbed, offended, and traumatized. As a guy in a similar situation to him (22 years old, unsuccessful with ladies, still a virgin,) this quote disgusts me. There is one thing I will say though; society has taught us that friendliness, respect, placing somebody on a pedestal and showering them with material gifts is the key to winning a person's heart.But back to what I think of this incident? After reading quite a bit of his autobiography to see what made him tick, I'm under the conclusion that it could have been a parenting or schooling issue. He was bullied by both boys and girls rather harshly while at school and even summer camp since the age of 12. From the sound of it, it also seemed like his family was more concerned with his MMORPG gaming habits rather than his situation at school and it seemed like teaching staff didn't help him. When does a person deserves unconditional respect, friendliness, being placed on pedestal and free gifts anyways? If you want these things, you better be some god of a religion, my parents, a very close friends of mine that we've being through thick and thin. If you are ANYWAYS else, its all fair game. So only give someone the appropriate amount of respect that they deserve. Every woman I have asked for relationship advice has said the same thing. Get to know her first, become very good friends with her then see where it goes from there. Then you build up affection for them and it becomes one big mess of oneitis because if she rejects you, it's going to hurt. Romantic stories in literature, films, television, music and whatnot seem to follow similar tropes. Boy meets girl, boy and girl become close, boy gains affection for girl, either she returns it or doesn't, then something really complicated happens but in the end they always end up together. I'll give you an example of a lesson I learned the hard way a couple of years ago. If a girl rejects you, don't continue to pursue her. It led to me being labelled a creep at school and being picked on by other girls. As for the 'showering with gifts' part. If that's not true, why are we pretty much expected to partake in holidays like Valentines Day if we have a girlfriend? With Valentines Day, it goes back to the role of men and women since the beginning of time where men were the provider. Think about the reverse, what if it was the women always providing for the male? It just doesn't really happen. There can never be perfect equality between the sexes. Just accept that the sexes are equal but in different ways. One being the provider and the other the care taker. Unless one day men can have babies lol.
It's just tradition/marketing. In Japan for example, girls give guys chocolates on Valentine's Day and guys give girls chocolates on another holiday.
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On May 26 2014 23:47 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 23:15 Otolia wrote:On May 26 2014 23:01 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On May 26 2014 22:48 Quotidian wrote:
The people who want to make this into a gender wars thing are completely clueless.
He was probably schizophrenic, paranoid, psychopathic, had some form of autism and certainly had several other social disorders. And he was extremely lonely. He didn't kill anybody because of misogyny or "The Patriarchy." He killed because he couldn't connect, he felt angry and vindictive.
He's the classical loner male killer.. almost all of them have some kind of paranoid delusion coupled with a superiority complex. If he didn't blame women for withholding affection from him (the whole "entitlement to sex thing is overstated anyway - he clearly wanted a girlfriend more than simply sex) - he'd blame something else for his disconnectedness. The result would probably have been the same.
100% agreed. This isn't anything other than a mental health issue. It's not a feminist issue; his life was relatively fucked up and he took his problems out on women, as well as never learning what he was doing wrong at any point in his life. It's not a gun-control issue; his first three victims were stabbed, and he probably would've made plans to blow Isla Vista to the moon if he didn't have access to guns. It's an issue of what made him tick, what made him snap, and how we can look at mentality to make sure this kind of stuff happens far less frequently than it does now. Explanation and motives are 2 separate things. Why did he killed all these people ? He was mentally unstable. That's the explanation, why he acted upon his motives. What are his motives ? Misogyny, (Wrong) Sense of entitlement. Those are the motives and the self-justification he build in is head. That's not the explanation. He's mentally unstable, now what factors take his instability and put him out onto the street shooting and stabbing the people? What gave him his sense of entitlement? The misogynistic traits are pretty explainable by a read of his manifesto. But it's a matter of why his thought process was the way it was. Which goes back to my original point: There are tons of misogynists out there. There are tons of people with an overinflated sense of entitlement. Both groups might be somewhat of a nuisance, but there's almost never a case where one of them goes on a killing spree. So why this time and not any other time? And I believe the answer to that question has nothing to do with gender issues or gun control.
I will try to answer that question.
Here's how people make choices (generally speaking):
1. Question One - When someone makes a choice, is there a cost to it?
2. Question Two - If there is a cost to the choice, do they think it is worth the cost to make that choice?
3. Question Three - Why are they making that choice?
With this person, obviously he felt that the cost (his life or jail time) was worth the choice he made (going on a killing spree).
Now the question is, what benefit do they have with making that choice?
What we know is that the person was hurt.
What we know is the person had certain views or others and of life.
Personally, I've felt this way before.
I felt like when someone has wronged me, I felt like I may do something that I may regret.
Of course, I wait a while and then take a look at the costs. First, is doing this what I want to be? For me, I want to be a nice guy so it usually ends there. If I struggle a bit, I ask myself if I can avoid the hurt. Like if it is only mental (like if someone said something really horrible to me, can I ignore it or walk it off?) then usually I stop right here and end it.
But if it really hurts or if someone did something physical to me or is a continuous threat, then I may struggle a little.
Is there a non-violent way to deal with this issue?
From there, I think of the costs. If I do something regrettable that may cause jail time, then that puts me off.
In this case, I do not think the cost is worth it.
Obviously, there are legit cases of people being mentally unstable but there are also many legit cases of people knowing what they are doing, and still doing them despite knowing the costs of what they are doing.
They know the costs and they know what they want to achieve.
In this case, the person knew the cost but for him, the cost didn't seem to be anything. He didn't like his life, so the costs were not as relevant.
People can be hateful of a group or of others but if they have a good life (or if they like their life or think that it can be improved), generally they won't do anything that would jeopardize it.
Like if someone hated a group but their life was generally good and worth living, why would they do anything to jeopardize what they have?
In most places, there are penalties for murder, so to those groups, the cost (the penalty for murder) isn't worth their hate for a certain group.
However, in this case, this person's dislike for a certain group seemed to outweigh the costs (his life or jail time) for doing something to that group (murder the people in the group).
Again, we don't know if he completely knew the costs of what he wanted to do and whether what he wanted to do was worth it but it is an option.
Anyway the point is, I disagree with people saying that he was simply mental unstable.
That could be the reason. But another reason is his view on others and life was a certain way.
He hated people and also hated a certain group. He felt like he wanted to do something bad to those people and he felt like the costs (his life or jail time) was worth what he wanted to do (murder).
Overall, I'm just saying that it isn't always "the person who went on a killing spree was simply mental unstable".
Plus he even wrote blogs and even made videos and talking about what's going on his life.
Apparently, people either did not take him seriously or did not care (which may have made his view on others worse) then he did what he thought was worth it (murder) for what he thought was little cost (his life which he felt was little cost for what he wanted to do).
Of course that is if you say "mentally unstable" as in he didn't know what he was doing and that he didn't know the costs (if you mean something else, then I apologize). In this case, I am just arguing that he may have known what he was doing (including the costs of what he wanted to do).
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On May 31 2014 10:20 [X]Ken_D wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 09:48 Clbull wrote:On May 31 2014 09:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 31 2014 09:22 Clbull wrote:I literally spent 40 minutes rewriting this post because I'm worried I'm going to say something ban-worthy. I was alerted to this case after reading a Facebook post pretty much blaming 'rape culture' and the idea that men feel entitled to sex simply because of one mentally ill 22 year old virgin's behaviour. I hate the MRA and Feminist responses to Elliot Rodger's crimes. With the scaremongering coming from both groups in regards to their skewed gender stereotypes (i.e. 'women are sluts', 'men will rape you'), the only thing they've accomplished is make each gender distrust each other even more. This quote from Rodger (page 84 of his 140 page 'autobiography') is one of the main things that fuelled this argument. Females truly have something mentally wrong with them. Their minds are flawed, and at this point in my life I was beginning to see it. The more I explored my college town of Isla Vista, the more ridiculousness I witnessed. All of the hot, beautiful girls walked around with obnoxious, tough jock-type men who partied all the time and acted crazy. They should be going for intelligent gentlemen such as myself. Women are sexually attracted to the wrong type of man. This is a major flaw in the very foundation of humanity. It is completely and utterly wrong, in every sense of the word. As these truths fully dawned on me, I became deeply disturbed by them. Deeply disturbed, offended, and traumatized. As a guy in a similar situation to him (22 years old, unsuccessful with ladies, still a virgin,) this quote disgusts me. There is one thing I will say though; society has taught us that friendliness, respect, placing somebody on a pedestal and showering them with material gifts is the key to winning a person's heart.But back to what I think of this incident? After reading quite a bit of his autobiography to see what made him tick, I'm under the conclusion that it could have been a parenting or schooling issue. He was bullied by both boys and girls rather harshly while at school and even summer camp since the age of 12. From the sound of it, it also seemed like his family was more concerned with his MMORPG gaming habits rather than his situation at school and it seemed like teaching staff didn't help him. When does a person deserves unconditional respect, friendliness, being placed on pedestal and free gifts anyways? If you want these things, you better be some god of a religion, my parents, a very close friends of mine that we've being through thick and thin. If you are ANYWAYS else, its all fair game. So only give someone the appropriate amount of respect that they deserve. Every woman I have asked for relationship advice has said the same thing. Get to know her first, become very good friends with her then see where it goes from there. Then you build up affection for them and it becomes one big mess of oneitis because if she rejects you, it's going to hurt. Romantic stories in literature, films, television, music and whatnot seem to follow similar tropes. Boy meets girl, boy and girl become close, boy gains affection for girl, either she returns it or doesn't, then something really complicated happens but in the end they always end up together. I'll give you an example of a lesson I learned the hard way a couple of years ago. If a girl rejects you, don't continue to pursue her. It led to me being labelled a creep at school and being picked on by other girls. As for the 'showering with gifts' part. If that's not true, why are we pretty much expected to partake in holidays like Valentines Day if we have a girlfriend? A man asking women for relationship advice is like a mouse asking a cat for a kiss. Your female friends don't have the empathy to understand how hard you try (even if they are misguided steps). Films on relationships are utter crap. Avoid them! They create unrealistic expectation. With Valentines Day, it goes back to the role of men and women since the beginning of time where men were the provider. Think about the reverse, what if it was the women always providing for the male? It just doesn't really happen. There can never be perfect equality between the sexes. Just accept that the sexes are equal but in different ways. One being the provider and the other the care taker. Unless one day men can have babies lol.
Absolutely none of this post makes sense.
+ Show Spoiler + Women are perfectly appropriate people to ask for constructive relationship advice, from junior high up to the present. I've gotten loads of good advice from female colleagues and friends about my personal relationships. If you're not getting good advice, the problem is with the individual you're asking, not with the fact that they're a woman.
And the Valentine's day thing just makes no sense. It is definitely marketing, as many people pointed out it's different in other cultures. Women are perfectly capable of being the provider now. It's possible that the perceived one-sidedness of Valentine's day may be rooted in sexism and those old perceptions, but iunno, I get chocolates and candy on Valentine's day from my wife....
I legitimately feel like the perceptions of people around dating can be a lot like dota. Instead of actually thinking about what it is that people are doing wrong themselves, it's just easier to be like "the real problem is with others/women/society/Peruvians....", and assign blame elsewhere because acknowledging personal deficits is difficult and painful.
And for the record, if the following attitude came out in a conversation with 99% of the women I know, it would be an attraction killer:
"With Valentines Day, it goes back to the role of men and women since the beginning of time where men were the provider. Think about the reverse, what if it was the women always providing for the male? It just doesn't really happen. There can never be perfect equality between the sexes. Just accept that the sexes are equal but in different ways. One being the provider and the other the care taker. Unless one day men can have babies lol"
You would be permanently removed from their list of eligible suitors. And people talk (note that I'm not saying "women talk", because everyone fucking gossips, men too). So if you say sexist shit like this, it gets around. And that's gonna hurt your chances if you're trying to date someone not from the 60s.
And to the poster before him, yes, if a woman rejects you, that's it. It sucks you had to learn the hard way, but don't try to pursue her. Although it could be painful, just try to empathize with her. If a woman who you were not attracted to was sexually aggressive towards you after your clear rejection, then it would probably be annoying to you, and if it persisted for a long time, it would become creepy. No does mean no.
But there's another good piece of advice buried in that, too. The worst that someone can say if you ask them out is no. If they say no, be respectful, move on, and try someone else. Nothing else is gonna happen. It took me a long time to figure that out. I definitely was the type to get anxious about that sort of thing at first.
And if something worse does happen (i.e. you get made fun of) then the problem isn't you, it's with them, and as long as you were respectful you don't need to internalize that. Also, if you do get made fun of for asking someone out, I would question who you're targeting as suitable potential life-partners. Why would you want to be with someone who would respond like that, anyways?
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Migrate to dating thread?
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fair enuff, my bad. I'll spoiler it.
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On May 31 2014 10:20 [X]Ken_D wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 09:48 Clbull wrote:On May 31 2014 09:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 31 2014 09:22 Clbull wrote:I literally spent 40 minutes rewriting this post because I'm worried I'm going to say something ban-worthy. I was alerted to this case after reading a Facebook post pretty much blaming 'rape culture' and the idea that men feel entitled to sex simply because of one mentally ill 22 year old virgin's behaviour. I hate the MRA and Feminist responses to Elliot Rodger's crimes. With the scaremongering coming from both groups in regards to their skewed gender stereotypes (i.e. 'women are sluts', 'men will rape you'), the only thing they've accomplished is make each gender distrust each other even more. This quote from Rodger (page 84 of his 140 page 'autobiography') is one of the main things that fuelled this argument. Females truly have something mentally wrong with them. Their minds are flawed, and at this point in my life I was beginning to see it. The more I explored my college town of Isla Vista, the more ridiculousness I witnessed. All of the hot, beautiful girls walked around with obnoxious, tough jock-type men who partied all the time and acted crazy. They should be going for intelligent gentlemen such as myself. Women are sexually attracted to the wrong type of man. This is a major flaw in the very foundation of humanity. It is completely and utterly wrong, in every sense of the word. As these truths fully dawned on me, I became deeply disturbed by them. Deeply disturbed, offended, and traumatized. As a guy in a similar situation to him (22 years old, unsuccessful with ladies, still a virgin,) this quote disgusts me. There is one thing I will say though; society has taught us that friendliness, respect, placing somebody on a pedestal and showering them with material gifts is the key to winning a person's heart.But back to what I think of this incident? After reading quite a bit of his autobiography to see what made him tick, I'm under the conclusion that it could have been a parenting or schooling issue. He was bullied by both boys and girls rather harshly while at school and even summer camp since the age of 12. From the sound of it, it also seemed like his family was more concerned with his MMORPG gaming habits rather than his situation at school and it seemed like teaching staff didn't help him. When does a person deserves unconditional respect, friendliness, being placed on pedestal and free gifts anyways? If you want these things, you better be some god of a religion, my parents, a very close friends of mine that we've being through thick and thin. If you are ANYWAYS else, its all fair game. So only give someone the appropriate amount of respect that they deserve. Every woman I have asked for relationship advice has said the same thing. Get to know her first, become very good friends with her then see where it goes from there. Then you build up affection for them and it becomes one big mess of oneitis because if she rejects you, it's going to hurt. Romantic stories in literature, films, television, music and whatnot seem to follow similar tropes. Boy meets girl, boy and girl become close, boy gains affection for girl, either she returns it or doesn't, then something really complicated happens but in the end they always end up together. I'll give you an example of a lesson I learned the hard way a couple of years ago. If a girl rejects you, don't continue to pursue her. It led to me being labelled a creep at school and being picked on by other girls. As for the 'showering with gifts' part. If that's not true, why are we pretty much expected to partake in holidays like Valentines Day if we have a girlfriend? A man asking women for relationship advice is like a mouse asking a cat for a kiss. Your female friends don't have the empathy to understand how hard you try (even if they are misguided steps). Films on relationships are utter crap. Avoid them! They create unrealistic expectation. With Valentines Day, it goes back to the role of men and women since the beginning of time where men were the provider. Think about the reverse, what if it was the women always providing for the male? It just doesn't really happen. There can never be perfect equality between the sexes. Just accept that the sexes are equal but in different ways. One being the provider and the other the care taker. Unless one day men can have babies lol.
God, what a horridly narrow-minded view point. My wife and I are currently expecting our first child, and I absolutely expect to participate in "care taking." And when she wants to return to work, then I will encourage and support that decision. I guess though, that because she will end up missing [at least] a few months of time in the office, that I'm the provider. Or maybe it's because I would clearly win in a fist fight, and we still need to define everything the same way cavemen did.
If you think one gender can't give another insight, I don't know what to tell you. Just because they don't understand every aspect doesn't mean they can't say something like "you might want to appreciate X Y and/or Z which your actions indicate you clearly don't think about" and provide food for thought. Advice is not fact - it won't always be good, it won't always be right - it is advice. Ugh, that statement is so bullheaded I would think it's straight trolling if I hadn't read so much else that was already posted here.
As far as this actual thread goes: all guns, PUA, and gender defining discussions aside, parenting in this culture sucks. I would actually venture further and say with divorce rates, the amount of impersonal interactions the internet has fostered, etc, that "family life" in this culture sucks...but it can start at a much simpler definition of parenting. It's beyond tragic that the lack of anyone who seems to care about a person leads to shit like this.
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On May 31 2014 10:20 [X]Ken_D wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 09:48 Clbull wrote:On May 31 2014 09:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 31 2014 09:22 Clbull wrote:I literally spent 40 minutes rewriting this post because I'm worried I'm going to say something ban-worthy. I was alerted to this case after reading a Facebook post pretty much blaming 'rape culture' and the idea that men feel entitled to sex simply because of one mentally ill 22 year old virgin's behaviour. I hate the MRA and Feminist responses to Elliot Rodger's crimes. With the scaremongering coming from both groups in regards to their skewed gender stereotypes (i.e. 'women are sluts', 'men will rape you'), the only thing they've accomplished is make each gender distrust each other even more. This quote from Rodger (page 84 of his 140 page 'autobiography') is one of the main things that fuelled this argument. Females truly have something mentally wrong with them. Their minds are flawed, and at this point in my life I was beginning to see it. The more I explored my college town of Isla Vista, the more ridiculousness I witnessed. All of the hot, beautiful girls walked around with obnoxious, tough jock-type men who partied all the time and acted crazy. They should be going for intelligent gentlemen such as myself. Women are sexually attracted to the wrong type of man. This is a major flaw in the very foundation of humanity. It is completely and utterly wrong, in every sense of the word. As these truths fully dawned on me, I became deeply disturbed by them. Deeply disturbed, offended, and traumatized. As a guy in a similar situation to him (22 years old, unsuccessful with ladies, still a virgin,) this quote disgusts me. There is one thing I will say though; society has taught us that friendliness, respect, placing somebody on a pedestal and showering them with material gifts is the key to winning a person's heart.But back to what I think of this incident? After reading quite a bit of his autobiography to see what made him tick, I'm under the conclusion that it could have been a parenting or schooling issue. He was bullied by both boys and girls rather harshly while at school and even summer camp since the age of 12. From the sound of it, it also seemed like his family was more concerned with his MMORPG gaming habits rather than his situation at school and it seemed like teaching staff didn't help him. When does a person deserves unconditional respect, friendliness, being placed on pedestal and free gifts anyways? If you want these things, you better be some god of a religion, my parents, a very close friends of mine that we've being through thick and thin. If you are ANYWAYS else, its all fair game. So only give someone the appropriate amount of respect that they deserve. Every woman I have asked for relationship advice has said the same thing. Get to know her first, become very good friends with her then see where it goes from there. Then you build up affection for them and it becomes one big mess of oneitis because if she rejects you, it's going to hurt. Romantic stories in literature, films, television, music and whatnot seem to follow similar tropes. Boy meets girl, boy and girl become close, boy gains affection for girl, either she returns it or doesn't, then something really complicated happens but in the end they always end up together. I'll give you an example of a lesson I learned the hard way a couple of years ago. If a girl rejects you, don't continue to pursue her. It led to me being labelled a creep at school and being picked on by other girls. As for the 'showering with gifts' part. If that's not true, why are we pretty much expected to partake in holidays like Valentines Day if we have a girlfriend? A man asking women for relationship advice is like a mouse asking a cat for a kiss. Your female friends don't have the empathy to understand how hard you try (even if they are misguided steps). Films on relationships are utter crap. Avoid them! They create unrealistic expectation. With Valentines Day, it goes back to the role of men and women since the beginning of time where men were the provider. Think about the reverse, what if it was the women always providing for the male? It just doesn't really happen. There can never be perfect equality between the sexes. Just accept that the sexes are equal but in different ways. One being the provider and the other the care taker. Unless one day men can have babies lol.
Yo bro its 2014, just in case you haven't checked in awhile. One has to be the provider, the other the caretaker?? You're a comedian.
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On June 01 2014 20:19 BallinWitStalin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 10:20 [X]Ken_D wrote:On May 31 2014 09:48 Clbull wrote:On May 31 2014 09:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 31 2014 09:22 Clbull wrote:I literally spent 40 minutes rewriting this post because I'm worried I'm going to say something ban-worthy. I was alerted to this case after reading a Facebook post pretty much blaming 'rape culture' and the idea that men feel entitled to sex simply because of one mentally ill 22 year old virgin's behaviour. I hate the MRA and Feminist responses to Elliot Rodger's crimes. With the scaremongering coming from both groups in regards to their skewed gender stereotypes (i.e. 'women are sluts', 'men will rape you'), the only thing they've accomplished is make each gender distrust each other even more. This quote from Rodger (page 84 of his 140 page 'autobiography') is one of the main things that fuelled this argument. Females truly have something mentally wrong with them. Their minds are flawed, and at this point in my life I was beginning to see it. The more I explored my college town of Isla Vista, the more ridiculousness I witnessed. All of the hot, beautiful girls walked around with obnoxious, tough jock-type men who partied all the time and acted crazy. They should be going for intelligent gentlemen such as myself. Women are sexually attracted to the wrong type of man. This is a major flaw in the very foundation of humanity. It is completely and utterly wrong, in every sense of the word. As these truths fully dawned on me, I became deeply disturbed by them. Deeply disturbed, offended, and traumatized. As a guy in a similar situation to him (22 years old, unsuccessful with ladies, still a virgin,) this quote disgusts me. There is one thing I will say though; society has taught us that friendliness, respect, placing somebody on a pedestal and showering them with material gifts is the key to winning a person's heart.But back to what I think of this incident? After reading quite a bit of his autobiography to see what made him tick, I'm under the conclusion that it could have been a parenting or schooling issue. He was bullied by both boys and girls rather harshly while at school and even summer camp since the age of 12. From the sound of it, it also seemed like his family was more concerned with his MMORPG gaming habits rather than his situation at school and it seemed like teaching staff didn't help him. When does a person deserves unconditional respect, friendliness, being placed on pedestal and free gifts anyways? If you want these things, you better be some god of a religion, my parents, a very close friends of mine that we've being through thick and thin. If you are ANYWAYS else, its all fair game. So only give someone the appropriate amount of respect that they deserve. Every woman I have asked for relationship advice has said the same thing. Get to know her first, become very good friends with her then see where it goes from there. Then you build up affection for them and it becomes one big mess of oneitis because if she rejects you, it's going to hurt. Romantic stories in literature, films, television, music and whatnot seem to follow similar tropes. Boy meets girl, boy and girl become close, boy gains affection for girl, either she returns it or doesn't, then something really complicated happens but in the end they always end up together. I'll give you an example of a lesson I learned the hard way a couple of years ago. If a girl rejects you, don't continue to pursue her. It led to me being labelled a creep at school and being picked on by other girls. As for the 'showering with gifts' part. If that's not true, why are we pretty much expected to partake in holidays like Valentines Day if we have a girlfriend? A man asking women for relationship advice is like a mouse asking a cat for a kiss. Your female friends don't have the empathy to understand how hard you try (even if they are misguided steps). Films on relationships are utter crap. Avoid them! They create unrealistic expectation. With Valentines Day, it goes back to the role of men and women since the beginning of time where men were the provider. Think about the reverse, what if it was the women always providing for the male? It just doesn't really happen. There can never be perfect equality between the sexes. Just accept that the sexes are equal but in different ways. One being the provider and the other the care taker. Unless one day men can have babies lol. Absolutely none of this post makes sense. + Show Spoiler + Women are perfectly appropriate people to ask for constructive relationship advice, from junior high up to the present. I've gotten loads of good advice from female colleagues and friends about my personal relationships. If you're not getting good advice, the problem is with the individual you're asking, not with the fact that they're a woman.
And the Valentine's day thing just makes no sense. It is definitely marketing, as many people pointed out it's different in other cultures. Women are perfectly capable of being the provider now. It's possible that the perceived one-sidedness of Valentine's day may be rooted in sexism and those old perceptions, but iunno, I get chocolates and candy on Valentine's day from my wife....
I legitimately feel like the perceptions of people around dating can be a lot like dota. Instead of actually thinking about what it is that people are doing wrong themselves, it's just easier to be like "the real problem is with others/women/society/Peruvians....", and assign blame elsewhere because acknowledging personal deficits is difficult and painful.
And for the record, if the following attitude came out in a conversation with 99% of the women I know, it would be an attraction killer:
"With Valentines Day, it goes back to the role of men and women since the beginning of time where men were the provider. Think about the reverse, what if it was the women always providing for the male? It just doesn't really happen. There can never be perfect equality between the sexes. Just accept that the sexes are equal but in different ways. One being the provider and the other the care taker. Unless one day men can have babies lol"
You would be permanently removed from their list of eligible suitors. And people talk (note that I'm not saying "women talk", because everyone fucking gossips, men too). So if you say sexist shit like this, it gets around. And that's gonna hurt your chances if you're trying to date someone not from the 60s.
And to the poster before him, yes, if a woman rejects you, that's it. It sucks you had to learn the hard way, but don't try to pursue her. Although it could be painful, just try to empathize with her. If a woman who you were not attracted to was sexually aggressive towards you after your clear rejection, then it would probably be annoying to you, and if it persisted for a long time, it would become creepy. No does mean no.
But there's another good piece of advice buried in that, too. The worst that someone can say if you ask them out is no. If they say no, be respectful, move on, and try someone else. Nothing else is gonna happen. It took me a long time to figure that out. I definitely was the type to get anxious about that sort of thing at first.
And if something worse does happen (i.e. you get made fun of) then the problem isn't you, it's with them, and as long as you were respectful you don't need to internalize that. Also, if you do get made fun of for asking someone out, I would question who you're targeting as suitable potential life-partners. Why would you want to be with someone who would respond like that, anyways?
Calm down there, 'BallinWitStalin'. He's simply recognizing the fact that the human species evolved under such conditions where the female was dependent on a male provider during pregnancy.
Recognizing there are key psychological differences between the two sexes does not amount to sexism. Ignoring them, however, does.
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On June 02 2014 07:49 Emerson_H wrote:
Calm down there, 'BallinWitStalin'. He's simply recognizing the fact that the human species evolved under such conditions where the female was dependent on a male provider during pregnancy.
Recognizing there are key psychological differences between the two sexes does not amount to sexism. Ignoring them, however, does.
You use the word fact a little too easily. It could also well be that human species evolved under conditions where a pregnant woman was taken care of by the entire community.One thing I hate about guys who are into PUA stuff (not that you necessarily are, I haven't read the entire conversation) is that they seem to be eager to attribute any differences in behaviour to evolution and genes, when a huge part of how we act comes from the environment and culture. I'm not denying that there are differences between men and women, I'm just saying that people seem to be way too quick to say that they are something we're born with. Some probably are, but not necessarily nearly all.
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On June 02 2014 07:49 Emerson_H wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 20:19 BallinWitStalin wrote:On May 31 2014 10:20 [X]Ken_D wrote:On May 31 2014 09:48 Clbull wrote:On May 31 2014 09:31 Xiphos wrote:On May 31 2014 09:22 Clbull wrote:I literally spent 40 minutes rewriting this post because I'm worried I'm going to say something ban-worthy. I was alerted to this case after reading a Facebook post pretty much blaming 'rape culture' and the idea that men feel entitled to sex simply because of one mentally ill 22 year old virgin's behaviour. I hate the MRA and Feminist responses to Elliot Rodger's crimes. With the scaremongering coming from both groups in regards to their skewed gender stereotypes (i.e. 'women are sluts', 'men will rape you'), the only thing they've accomplished is make each gender distrust each other even more. This quote from Rodger (page 84 of his 140 page 'autobiography') is one of the main things that fuelled this argument. Females truly have something mentally wrong with them. Their minds are flawed, and at this point in my life I was beginning to see it. The more I explored my college town of Isla Vista, the more ridiculousness I witnessed. All of the hot, beautiful girls walked around with obnoxious, tough jock-type men who partied all the time and acted crazy. They should be going for intelligent gentlemen such as myself. Women are sexually attracted to the wrong type of man. This is a major flaw in the very foundation of humanity. It is completely and utterly wrong, in every sense of the word. As these truths fully dawned on me, I became deeply disturbed by them. Deeply disturbed, offended, and traumatized. As a guy in a similar situation to him (22 years old, unsuccessful with ladies, still a virgin,) this quote disgusts me. There is one thing I will say though; society has taught us that friendliness, respect, placing somebody on a pedestal and showering them with material gifts is the key to winning a person's heart.But back to what I think of this incident? After reading quite a bit of his autobiography to see what made him tick, I'm under the conclusion that it could have been a parenting or schooling issue. He was bullied by both boys and girls rather harshly while at school and even summer camp since the age of 12. From the sound of it, it also seemed like his family was more concerned with his MMORPG gaming habits rather than his situation at school and it seemed like teaching staff didn't help him. When does a person deserves unconditional respect, friendliness, being placed on pedestal and free gifts anyways? If you want these things, you better be some god of a religion, my parents, a very close friends of mine that we've being through thick and thin. If you are ANYWAYS else, its all fair game. So only give someone the appropriate amount of respect that they deserve. Every woman I have asked for relationship advice has said the same thing. Get to know her first, become very good friends with her then see where it goes from there. Then you build up affection for them and it becomes one big mess of oneitis because if she rejects you, it's going to hurt. Romantic stories in literature, films, television, music and whatnot seem to follow similar tropes. Boy meets girl, boy and girl become close, boy gains affection for girl, either she returns it or doesn't, then something really complicated happens but in the end they always end up together. I'll give you an example of a lesson I learned the hard way a couple of years ago. If a girl rejects you, don't continue to pursue her. It led to me being labelled a creep at school and being picked on by other girls. As for the 'showering with gifts' part. If that's not true, why are we pretty much expected to partake in holidays like Valentines Day if we have a girlfriend? A man asking women for relationship advice is like a mouse asking a cat for a kiss. Your female friends don't have the empathy to understand how hard you try (even if they are misguided steps). Films on relationships are utter crap. Avoid them! They create unrealistic expectation. With Valentines Day, it goes back to the role of men and women since the beginning of time where men were the provider. Think about the reverse, what if it was the women always providing for the male? It just doesn't really happen. There can never be perfect equality between the sexes. Just accept that the sexes are equal but in different ways. One being the provider and the other the care taker. Unless one day men can have babies lol. Absolutely none of this post makes sense. + Show Spoiler + Women are perfectly appropriate people to ask for constructive relationship advice, from junior high up to the present. I've gotten loads of good advice from female colleagues and friends about my personal relationships. If you're not getting good advice, the problem is with the individual you're asking, not with the fact that they're a woman.
And the Valentine's day thing just makes no sense. It is definitely marketing, as many people pointed out it's different in other cultures. Women are perfectly capable of being the provider now. It's possible that the perceived one-sidedness of Valentine's day may be rooted in sexism and those old perceptions, but iunno, I get chocolates and candy on Valentine's day from my wife....
I legitimately feel like the perceptions of people around dating can be a lot like dota. Instead of actually thinking about what it is that people are doing wrong themselves, it's just easier to be like "the real problem is with others/women/society/Peruvians....", and assign blame elsewhere because acknowledging personal deficits is difficult and painful.
And for the record, if the following attitude came out in a conversation with 99% of the women I know, it would be an attraction killer:
"With Valentines Day, it goes back to the role of men and women since the beginning of time where men were the provider. Think about the reverse, what if it was the women always providing for the male? It just doesn't really happen. There can never be perfect equality between the sexes. Just accept that the sexes are equal but in different ways. One being the provider and the other the care taker. Unless one day men can have babies lol"
You would be permanently removed from their list of eligible suitors. And people talk (note that I'm not saying "women talk", because everyone fucking gossips, men too). So if you say sexist shit like this, it gets around. And that's gonna hurt your chances if you're trying to date someone not from the 60s.
And to the poster before him, yes, if a woman rejects you, that's it. It sucks you had to learn the hard way, but don't try to pursue her. Although it could be painful, just try to empathize with her. If a woman who you were not attracted to was sexually aggressive towards you after your clear rejection, then it would probably be annoying to you, and if it persisted for a long time, it would become creepy. No does mean no.
But there's another good piece of advice buried in that, too. The worst that someone can say if you ask them out is no. If they say no, be respectful, move on, and try someone else. Nothing else is gonna happen. It took me a long time to figure that out. I definitely was the type to get anxious about that sort of thing at first.
And if something worse does happen (i.e. you get made fun of) then the problem isn't you, it's with them, and as long as you were respectful you don't need to internalize that. Also, if you do get made fun of for asking someone out, I would question who you're targeting as suitable potential life-partners. Why would you want to be with someone who would respond like that, anyways? Calm down there, 'BallinWitStalin'. He's simply recognizing the fact that the human species evolved under such conditions where the female was dependent on a male provider during pregnancy. .
That's actually a misconception. For the largest part of human history. Men and women lived hunter&gatherer nomadic lifestyles in groups of 40-80 people. Where women did a lot of gathering tasks while often the group took care of children. It resembled a hippie community way more than it does a traditional family, which only became the go-to model after humans settled down and started agriculture and domestication.
The 'traditional family' is largely is a product of our more recent history and far from being the single or 'most natural' social institution that humans have formed.
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I know y'all are having a fascinating argument, let me interject to say I read My Twisted World, and here are some things I noticed, and some fun facts:
- It is over 100,000 words, which is more than the first three individual Harry Potter books:
Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - 76,944 words
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - 85,141 words
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban - 107,253 words
and
My Immortal - 86,000 (approximately)
- Cho Seung-Hui's manifesto was only 23 pages long, compared to the 141 pages written by Rodger.
- Rodger's "Day of Retribution" wasn't nearly as successful as he hoped it would be a longshot, and also, incidentally, when he went to the sorority house and knocked on the door, they didn't answer, a final act of 'female rejection' which probably saved a ton of lives. Moral of the story: it's okay to snub people sometimes because they could be a crazed gunman.
- Rodger's second WoW character was a Blood Elf. Why does everyone pick Blood Elf?
- Rodger often says "This was the end of my social life" throughout the story, but continues to interact with friends and family.
- Before the shooting, Rodger's favorite weapon of choice was to splash his beverage onto the person of ire. He mentions using orange juice on at least two occasions, coffee in another, and wanting to pour his soda on rowdy movie audiences that sat in front of him.
- Some interesting words that appear multiple times in the story:
Magnificent, 16 times
Pokemon, 20 times
Lottery, 32 times
Blonde, 60 times
WoW, World of Warcraft, 108 times
beautiful, 130 times
Mother, 397 times
- Rodger put great effort into elaborating on irrelevant details, such as how he wasn't a fan of the Lord of The Rings series, but he enjoyed the movies.
- Rodger's favorite drinks seem to be coffee, and wine, which he posted many pictures of himself drinking, and cites over-drinking wine throughout the latter part of his story.
- Peter Rodger's film Oh My God (2009) debuted very close to Roger Nygard's The Nature of Existence (2010)
- Elliot Rodger tried to win the Hunger Games irl, but the odds were not ever in his favor (especially with women)
All in all, Elliot Rodger looks like a pretty handsome guy. His voice is eerily soft-spoken though. When I first heard about Elliot Rodger, it wasn't from the news. Someone referred to him as "the isla vista guy" and said he was disgusted with his video. So I watched the video for the first time not knowing that Rodger was a mass murderer, and I was still kind of creeped out and also oddly enough, slightly amused, until I looked over at the recommended videos and saw "Isla Vista shooting" and was like "OH MY GOD" (no relation to the film of the same title)
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I'm a little curious to watch that Oh My God movie now actually...never heard of it before all of this.
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EDIT: thought this was the dating thread with all the gender discussion. nevermind, not important here
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What is PUA?
Is amazing that America think it is difficult problem, when it is only country to happen like this problem. They should look at what is wrong with society why this happen.
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On June 02 2014 14:31 - special tactics - wrote:
What is PUA?
Is amazing that America think it is difficult problem, when it is only country to happen like this problem. They should look at what is wrong with society why this happen.
That's easy to say, but every country has psychopaths. It's not an "American" problem so much as it is a society problem. Anyone is capable of doing very evil things, and I wonder why it surprises anyone when someone decides to go that route.
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On June 02 2014 15:11 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 14:31 - special tactics - wrote:
What is PUA?
Is amazing that America think it is difficult problem, when it is only country to happen like this problem. They should look at what is wrong with society why this happen. That's easy to say, but every country has psychopaths. It's not an "American" problem so much as it is a society problem. Anyone is capable of doing very evil things, and I wonder why it surprises anyone when someone decides to go that route.
I think he was referring to the combination of psychological problem and mass shootings, which is actually an American problem. Going with your points, it is true that this could happen to everyone, but the mere fact that this happens only in America makes this an American problem and thus reviewing this matter must look into the nature of American first and foremost.
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EPT
