On November 09 2013 21:19 Grumbels wrote: how can you compare a 48 game karpov kasparov match to a 1 game so far anand carlsen series?
show me one single game in that series, despite it having 40 draws in it, that has such an obvious lack of fighting spirit.
All your posts are incredibly irritating, and you're not a fan of chess like I'm a fan of chess. And this post finally showed me you know nothing. If you followed the match you are referring to, there were plenty of games drawn quickly and trivially.
Gaining a comfortable draw as black is a great start for Anand, and criticising him for Nd5 is completely ridiculous.
On November 09 2013 21:19 Grumbels wrote: how can you compare a 48 game karpov kasparov match to a 1 game so far anand carlsen series?
show me one single game in that series, despite it having 40 draws in it, that has such an obvious lack of fighting spirit.
Holy armchair critic batman. Neither of them needed to start taking risks at this point. They were simply not in a position where it was worth it - believe me that they'll start taking risks when their scores warrant it. Waiting for the right time to play boldly in duel that will be decided over only twelve games is not being a "pussy", it's called playing intelligently.
On November 10 2013 02:04 Confuse wrote: I really dont like how the prize pool is set up. 60:40? If it was 80:20 maybe they would take more risks, haha.
In any case I think Anand's got this one. Don't trust the ratings difference of 100~ to be a big deal.
well you gotta remember that the winner is guaranteed another match(which guarantees a lot more money) while the loser has to go through extremly tough opposition to get another shot at a match. And the prestige is huge.
On November 09 2013 22:33 vndestiny wrote: What lack of fighting spirit ? My gosh you think their main goal is play for your entertainment ? Of course they want to win, badly, with everything on the line like the World Championship. It also means that they do whatever it takes to avoid a lost. Carlsen did that because he did not want to lose, his position was bad. Anand took it because he do not want to throw away his advantage position, and with Carlsen superior midgame play he would be more likely to lose. Thus they did what they did.
You think they lack the fighting spirit, that they are boring ? They did what they had to do, what they thought was best for them. They are not playing for your entertainment ffs.
WRONG
they both had other options, especially Anand. I'll give you one example for each player.
Anand: Ne4 instea of Nd5 - it keeps the advantage for black - Nd5 allows white to either force a draw or worsen his position (at this point of course white will try to force the draw)
Carlsen: Qb3 instead of c5 this isn't critical though, but might have left more options open for white
Maybe Carlsen was just too nervous, it's his first WC match after all and Anand is a legend and one of his "role models" so to speak, he definitely looks up to him. But he has to do better with white if he wants to win. As for Anand, he played brilliantly, created a fantastic initiative (with black!), there's just no reason to strive for a draw in such a situation, unless he is pussy and affraid of Carlsen outplaying him from a worse position. So no, they didn't do what they were supposed to do: fight till the very last breath and prove who is better.
btw of course they are playing for the entertainment of the viewer as well as the integrity of the sport. they could settle it in a closed room you know without anyone knowing... these kind of events exist because of, and at the end payed for by the fanbase.
P.S.: please back up your word about the game with actual moves or even better some analysis, thank you
Your alternatives - were they thought up on the spot, or with the aid of a computer? The players have to play without a computer and that makes a huge difference. Qb3 was probably rejected after Be6 and he didn't really want to go into those types of complications even if a computer will play it out to approximate equality. Similarly, do you really look at that position and trust your calculations in the FIRST game of a match that your Nc4 won't become trapped in some lines after Ne4?
There is such a huge difference between playing on the spot and sitting at home without any tension while looking at engine evaluations and lines.
VOD link for the first game with live analysis. Press conference after the game at around the 1h56 mark:
On November 09 2013 22:33 vndestiny wrote: What lack of fighting spirit ? My gosh you think their main goal is play for your entertainment ? Of course they want to win, badly, with everything on the line like the World Championship. It also means that they do whatever it takes to avoid a lost. Carlsen did that because he did not want to lose, his position was bad. Anand took it because he do not want to throw away his advantage position, and with Carlsen superior midgame play he would be more likely to lose. Thus they did what they did.
You think they lack the fighting spirit, that they are boring ? They did what they had to do, what they thought was best for them. They are not playing for your entertainment ffs.
WRONG
they both had other options, especially Anand. I'll give you one example for each player.
Anand: Ne4 instea of Nd5 - it keeps the advantage for black - Nd5 allows white to either force a draw or worsen his position (at this point of course white will try to force the draw)
Carlsen: Qb3 instead of c5 this isn't critical though, but might have left more options open for white
Maybe Carlsen was just too nervous, it's his first WC match after all and Anand is a legend and one of his "role models" so to speak, he definitely looks up to him. But he has to do better with white if he wants to win. As for Anand, he played brilliantly, created a fantastic initiative (with black!), there's just no reason to strive for a draw in such a situation, unless he is pussy and affraid of Carlsen outplaying him from a worse position. So no, they didn't do what they were supposed to do: fight till the very last breath and prove who is better.
btw of course they are playing for the entertainment of the viewer as well as the integrity of the sport. they could settle it in a closed room you know without anyone knowing... these kind of events exist because of, and at the end payed for by the fanbase.
P.S.: please back up your word about the game with actual moves or even better some analysis, thank you
Your alternatives - were they thought up on the spot, or with the aid of a computer? The players have to play without a computer and that makes a huge difference. Qb3 was probably rejected after Be6 and he didn't really want to go into those types of complications even if a computer will play it out to approximate equality. Similarly, do you really look at that position and trust your calculations in the FIRST game of a match that your Nc4 won't become trapped in some lines after Ne4?
There is such a huge difference between playing on the spot and sitting at home without any tension while looking at engine evaluations and lines.
VOD link for the first game with live analysis. Press conference after the game at around the 1h56 mark:
On November 09 2013 22:33 vndestiny wrote: What lack of fighting spirit ? My gosh you think their main goal is play for your entertainment ? Of course they want to win, badly, with everything on the line like the World Championship. It also means that they do whatever it takes to avoid a lost. Carlsen did that because he did not want to lose, his position was bad. Anand took it because he do not want to throw away his advantage position, and with Carlsen superior midgame play he would be more likely to lose. Thus they did what they did.
You think they lack the fighting spirit, that they are boring ? They did what they had to do, what they thought was best for them. They are not playing for your entertainment ffs.
WRONG
they both had other options, especially Anand. I'll give you one example for each player.
Anand: Ne4 instea of Nd5 - it keeps the advantage for black - Nd5 allows white to either force a draw or worsen his position (at this point of course white will try to force the draw)
Carlsen: Qb3 instead of c5 this isn't critical though, but might have left more options open for white
Maybe Carlsen was just too nervous, it's his first WC match after all and Anand is a legend and one of his "role models" so to speak, he definitely looks up to him. But he has to do better with white if he wants to win. As for Anand, he played brilliantly, created a fantastic initiative (with black!), there's just no reason to strive for a draw in such a situation, unless he is pussy and affraid of Carlsen outplaying him from a worse position. So no, they didn't do what they were supposed to do: fight till the very last breath and prove who is better.
btw of course they are playing for the entertainment of the viewer as well as the integrity of the sport. they could settle it in a closed room you know without anyone knowing... these kind of events exist because of, and at the end payed for by the fanbase.
P.S.: please back up your word about the game with actual moves or even better some analysis, thank you
Your alternatives - were they thought up on the spot, or with the aid of a computer? The players have to play without a computer and that makes a huge difference. Qb3 was probably rejected after Be6 and he didn't really want to go into those types of complications even if a computer will play it out to approximate equality. Similarly, do you really look at that position and trust your calculations in the FIRST game of a match that your Nc4 won't become trapped in some lines after Ne4?
There is such a huge difference between playing on the spot and sitting at home without any tension while looking at engine evaluations and lines.
VOD link for the first game with live analysis. Press conference after the game at around the 1h56 mark:
Well, guys, what's here to discuss? At the move 16 both players correctly concluded that breaking the repetition by either side would be a small positional concession by the player who does that. So considering that Magnus had worse position and Vishy was Black, it's no wonder they split the point. The fact that Carlsen used weird opening and pushed 11. c5 is another story.
Okay, okay, you got me, I was trolling, guess it wasn't funny. I apologize if it was offending/annoying.
serious talk: - Short games (like the one we saw today) are a real problem for chess as a spectator sport, hence Sophia rules, Bilbao scoring system. (I personally dislike both of these, but don't know of a better alternative yet.) In tournaments, they can also question the integrity of the system. - Securing a draw in a match (or tournament) at the right time is of course fine, it's part of the tradition, the overarching strategy, it's one of the reasons chess is unique and beautiful. -Securing said draw without playing the game to it's logical conclusion is problematic though.
I don't think today's game hits the mark in this matter, there was plenty of chess left in it... And Carlsen himself agrees, calling today's game an "embarrassing draw".
On November 10 2013 03:18 mihajovics wrote: Okay, okay, you got me, I was trolling, guess it wasn't funny. I apologize if it was offending/annoying.
serious talk: - Short games (like the one we saw today) are a real problem for chess as a spectator sport, hence Sophia rules, Bilbao scoring system. (I personally dislike both of these, but don't know of a better alternative yet.) In tournaments, they can also question the integrity of the system. - Securing a draw in a match (or tournament) at the right time is of course fine, it's part of the tradition, the overarching strategy, it's one of the reasons chess is unique and beautiful. -Securing said draw without playing the game to it's logical conclusion is problematic though.
I don't think today's game hits the mark in this matter, there was plenty of chess left in it... And Carlsen himself agrees, calling today's game an "embarrassing draw".
Please have this conversation after the match is done, not during...
On November 10 2013 03:18 mihajovics wrote: I don't think today's game hits the mark in this matter, there was plenty of chess left in it... And Carlsen himself agrees, calling today's game an "embarrassing draw".
He's calling it embarassing in the sense that he got caught out of the opening. I'm fairly sure he's not embarassed at all to get a draw in such a position, but rather relieved.
According to the analyzers, if Carlsen would have played 9.Nd2 he could have avoided the upcoming complications. His move 9.Nc6 allowed for a quasi-forcing sequence starting with 9. ... dxc4.
On November 10 2013 04:03 urboss wrote: According to the analyzers, if Carlsen would have played 9.Nd2 he could have avoided the upcoming complications. His move 9.Nc6 allowed for a quasi-forcing sequence starting with 9. ... dxc4.
could you show the main line/idea (or link the analysis)?
On November 10 2013 04:03 urboss wrote: According to the analyzers, if Carlsen would have played 9.Nd2 he could have avoided the upcoming complications. His move 9.Nc6 allowed for a quasi-forcing sequence starting with 9. ... dxc4.
could you show the main line/idea (or link the analysis)?
9.Nd2 simply gives more support to the c pawn so that 9. ... dxc4 followed by 10. ... Nb6 is not possible. chessexplained mentions it 9 minutes into the video:
What's annoying about criticism like this is that it's easy to criticize the opening after it happened and failed. It may very well have been the case that Carlsen and his team studied Anand's usual responses to the opening moves he played and noticed possible weakness that may not have been exploited by previous opponents, and therefore decided to open with Nf3 in case Anand followed the said usual line(s). Anand, on his side, may have "fixed" that weakness in the course of his preparation. This may not precisely be the case, but still, Carlsen can at this point obviously not explain why he opened with that and there may have been very good reasons for it.
What's annoying about criticism like this is that it's easy to criticize the opening after it happened and failed. It may very well have been the case that Carlsen and his team studied Anand's usual responses to the opening moves he played and noticed possible weakness that may not have been exploited by previous opponents, and therefore decided to open with Nf3 in case Anand followed the said usual line(s). Anand, on his side, may have "fixed" that weakness in the course of his preparation. This may not precisely be the case, but still, Carlsen can at this point obviously not explain why he opened with that and there may have been very good reasons for it.
I dont know much about chess, but that also applies very much to sc2. Like a 6pool against a player you know will go CC first on the lowground 95% of the time. If he doesnt you look really stupid :D.
EPT![[image loading]](http://chessbase.com/Portals/4/files/news/2013/chennai/nakamuraquote01.jpg)
