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On October 02 2013 15:23 Jibba wrote:
No, Reid really shouldn't concede on anything. Now is the time they should finally ram it down their throats. Compromise happened in 2009 and 2010, and we ended up with a terrible bill modeled after the Heritage Foundation's own 1989 ideas. But it's the law we have and they already agreed to delay it prior. Obamacare is not the law anyone on the left wanted, but we're stuck with it because of the past compromises and giving further would no longer be a compromise - it would simply be a concession.
Yes, the end goal for Obamacare is more overarching than the current law and Reid should rake them with it. The GOP doesn't have the strategy, structure or capital for a long term fight right now. Even the businesses that hate Obamacare are 1) already prepared for it and 2) hate it less than the uncertainty.
Boehner will have no choice but to part from the Tea Party if they refuse to raise the debt ceiling unless the PPACA is either delayed or de-funded. Every moneyed interest in the world will be putting pressure to prevent such a catastrophe.
The world economy is dependent on the reliability of US debt. If anyone actually thinks the US won't make it's payments it will send the entire global economy into a death spiral. No matter how bad the PPACA gets in time for the next presidential election there's no way it could be worse than defaulting on our debt. So to risk our credit to prevent the PPACA is asinine.
The irony is all the uncertainty republicans cried on and on about when this argument was rightfully had, is squarely on their shoulders at the moment. If they passed the CR and a budget there would be no undue uncertainty. Businesses could move forward and adjust. But with economic doom looming on the horizon SPECIFICALLY because of Republicans/Tea Party They don't know whether to invest in their businesses or buy fallout bunkers.
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On October 02 2013 16:17 Phenny wrote:
I think this is pretty great, people will pretty soon realise how little government actually matters when nothing remotely apocalyptic occurs as a result.
Says someone who obviously isn't counting on their paycheck to pay their bills and feed their children, that won't arrive as long as the Federal Government is closed....
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On October 02 2013 17:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 16:17 Phenny wrote:
I think this is pretty great, people will pretty soon realise how little government actually matters when nothing remotely apocalyptic occurs as a result. Says someone who obviously isn't counting on their paycheck to pay their bills and feed their children, that won't arrive as long as the Federal Government is closed....
psssssssssssssssssst, that sounds like it would only occur to p o o r people
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I came into this thread to see if there are any new developments on this issue, and found Jibba and Clutz having a bickering contest. Is there any hope for this thread or should I abandon it?
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Standard republican selfish rich serving mentality. Only rich get paid during shutdown. Way to go John Boenher, Mark meadows, the wanna pastor sunday school teacher made senator, and Eric Cantor.
Why would anyone vote for republicans after this... its like the kid who plays starcraft and pauses the game to troll the guy who beats him. It doesn't change the fact republicans are being dumb and ruining our foreign relations. Republicans so mad that they cannot get their war with Iran right now. Republicans so mad that sick/disabled people have to be helped. So mad that kids want to get educated. Republicans not looking out for average american.
Shut down by Republicans to deny affordable health insurance. Eric Cantor U mad bro?!!
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On October 02 2013 17:09 Cillas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 17:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 02 2013 16:17 Phenny wrote:
I think this is pretty great, people will pretty soon realise how little government actually matters when nothing remotely apocalyptic occurs as a result. Says someone who obviously isn't counting on their paycheck to pay their bills and feed their children, that won't arrive as long as the Federal Government is closed.... psssssssssssssssssst, that sounds like it would only occur to p o o r people
Or you know, anyone employed at NASA, rail road operations, high-way operations, park rangers, government employed researchers, or anyone that is in any way funded by the governemnt.
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Well hopefully it doesn't last long and the people who cant work get back pay like the last couple times there was a shut down. I don't think congress HAS to pay the people though, and judging by the current group of wonderful people there I wouldn't be shocked if that doesnt happen...
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On October 02 2013 17:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 16:17 Phenny wrote:
I think this is pretty great, people will pretty soon realise how little government actually matters when nothing remotely apocalyptic occurs as a result. Says someone who obviously isn't counting on their paycheck to pay their bills and feed their children, that won't arrive as long as the Federal Government is closed....
But all the people who will lose their jobs or have their hours cut, or have their insurance premiums tripled because of Obamacare can just go suck it, right?
Hey, at least they can rest comfortably knowing that it's all in the pursuit of the greater good that is single-payer.
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how can this even happen, man...how can a party hold something like this hostage....
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You do remember this part though right?
"Sixty-four percent opposed Gingrich’s re-election as speaker in January 1997. And when he announced in November 1998 that he was stepping down, 70 percent approved."
All after what he accomplished and the weariness at the spin directed his way. Also, if you're going to use quotes floating there, as if from a direct quote, give the rest of us the courtesy of attributing the quote. It's either knowledge you picked up along the way, in which case the poll would be helpful, or it's a secondary source on the poll, where you are in effect plagiarizing.
Whether or not it's a disaster in the end for your country as a whole, I think everyone should be showing some sympathy for the almost 1 million people that aren't being paid for their jobs while the shutdown happens, it's quite a huge number of people.... Even if what some people in this thread say is true and they get paid back for any missed pay in the future, it can very badly affect somebody's life to even miss a single one.
I too wish Harry Reid, Obama, and the rest of the Democrats had taken steps towards compromise here. It's sad to bring runaway spending and costly laws under control with such tactics, but the other ways of trying to get the rest of Congress to listen have hitherto failed. The millions that will be or have been negatively impacted by Obamacare in the health care quality received or the premium costs increasing are crying out too. Is Washington listening?
You really are quite daft.
The Republicans grew spines? Did you not pay attention to how this country was governed for the past 13 years? Republicans have been ruthlessly effective and hard willed, and Democrats haven't stood up to them.
And this time the Republicans lost. They lost on the bill, which became a law. They lost on the election, where your "idealogue" was re-elected handily, and seats were gained. They lost in the Supreme Court, where the law they call unconstitutional was quite literally held to be constitutional. There is no fucking debate anymore.
Boehner can't reel in the party because he doesn't have control of it anymore. Now it's just a bunch of brash spotlight seekers making a name for themselves, without any party strategy to back it up. They're completely fucked on this one, and the 1995 stoppage is a terrible analogy if you've actually paid attention to what went on then and what's going on now.
Boehner caved on every debt limit fight. Boehner didn't seek answers on our lost men in the Benghazi attack. Boehner, for the past year, has spent more of his time bashing the conservative wing of his party than the opposition. He has sent his staff to do the same thing. He has surrendered leadership on the immigration issue, remaining silent or in quiet support of amnesty. He has caved when he voiced support for tax increases on the rich.
I know, Jibba, that it's rather hard to see from the other side of the aisle. The same would exist if Reid was ignoring his Democratic constituency--I wouldn't be intimate with all the promises he made his supporters upon becoming Senate majority leader. This is basically the first time he hasn't turned against his party's conservative wing. The 2010 wave that swept him into power became disillusioned with his performance pretty quickly. He has been a follower with a leader title for quite some time, far from a modern Gingrich or a Republican version of Tip O'Neill.
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On October 02 2013 16:17 Phenny wrote:
I think this is pretty great, people will pretty soon realise how little government actually matters when nothing remotely apocalyptic occurs as a result.
Very clever.
No, seriously you are right. Courthouses, police, justice, tax office, army, road and infrastructure, public hospitals and schools, all those things don't matter one little bit. US are lucky to have two layers of governments, meaning those lunatic extremists that control the Senate can't fuck up absolutely everything. They wouldn't hesitate in their glorious crusade to provide american the Freedom and Liberty of not being covered by a healthcare if they don't have sufficient means.
The only good thing of having the GOP held in hostage by the tea party nutcases is that they aren't going to win a single election while this goes on.
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On October 02 2013 17:20 tokinho wrote:
Standard republican selfish rich serving mentality.
Republicans so mad that sick/disabled people have to be helped. So mad that kids want to get educated.
Yeah, it's this kind of rhetoric that makes us just desperate to work with you...
Especially when "working with you" actually means green-lighting every nonsensical "save-the-world" idea that runs through a Democrat's head and then still getting blamed for the fallout because every good oligarchy needs a scapegoat. I'm shocked that we Republicans haven't jumped at the chance to be Democrat whipping boys.
And oh yeah, that's the way to win elections. Be spineless do-nothings who pray that the American people just happen to decide to mark the R instead of the D even though the Republicans haven't accomplished a goddamn thing because they are more worried about what the Democrats think about them than what their own fucking base wants...
For all this bitching about "democracy" I notice there is a severe lack of asking for a referendum on Obamacare. For all this whining about the way the "system" is supposed to work, I notice there is a severe lack of complaining about how Obamacare was passed (and has been implemented), which was much more an unprecedented mockery than the way Republicans are dealing with it.
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On October 02 2013 17:40 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +You do remember this part though right?
"Sixty-four percent opposed Gingrich’s re-election as speaker in January 1997. And when he announced in November 1998 that he was stepping down, 70 percent approved." All after what he accomplished and the weariness at the spin directed his way. Also, if you're going to use quotes floating there, as if from a direct quote, give the rest of us the courtesy of attributing the quote. It's either knowledge you picked up along the way, in which case the poll would be helpful, or it's a secondary source on the poll, where you are in effect plagiarizing. Show nested quote +
Whether or not it's a disaster in the end for your country as a whole, I think everyone should be showing some sympathy for the almost 1 million people that aren't being paid for their jobs while the shutdown happens, it's quite a huge number of people.... Even if what some people in this thread say is true and they get paid back for any missed pay in the future, it can very badly affect somebody's life to even miss a single one.
I too wish Harry Reid, Obama, and the rest of the Democrats had taken steps towards compromise here. It's sad to bring runaway spending and costly laws under control with such tactics, but the other ways of trying to get the rest of Congress to listen have hitherto failed. The millions that will be or have been negatively impacted by Obamacare in the health care quality received or the premium costs increasing are crying out too. Is Washington listening? Show nested quote +
You really are quite daft.
The Republicans grew spines? Did you not pay attention to how this country was governed for the past 13 years? Republicans have been ruthlessly effective and hard willed, and Democrats haven't stood up to them.
And this time the Republicans lost. They lost on the bill, which became a law. They lost on the election, where your "idealogue" was re-elected handily, and seats were gained. They lost in the Supreme Court, where the law they call unconstitutional was quite literally held to be constitutional. There is no fucking debate anymore.
Boehner can't reel in the party because he doesn't have control of it anymore. Now it's just a bunch of brash spotlight seekers making a name for themselves, without any party strategy to back it up. They're completely fucked on this one, and the 1995 stoppage is a terrible analogy if you've actually paid attention to what went on then and what's going on now.
Boehner caved on every debt limit fight. Boehner didn't seek answers on our lost men in the Benghazi attack. Boehner, for the past year, has spent more of his time bashing the conservative wing of his party than the opposition. He has sent his staff to do the same thing. He has surrendered leadership on the immigration issue, remaining silent or in quiet support of amnesty. He has caved when he voiced support for tax increases on the rich. I know, Jibba, that it's rather hard to see from the other side of the aisle. The same would exist if Reid was ignoring his Democratic constituency--I wouldn't be intimate with all the promises he made his supporters upon becoming Senate majority leader. This is basically the first time he hasn't turned against his party's conservative wing. The 2010 wave that swept him into power became disillusioned with his performance pretty quickly. He has been a follower with a leader title for quite some time, far from a modern Gingrich or a Republican version of Tip O'Neill.
Really...? Would've taken you less time to just copy, paste, and google the quote than to write that if you cared where it was from but based on your response to what actually happened to Gingrich I can see you didn't.
Just curious though. Provided the tea party fails at stopping Obamacare like every non-Republican (and several Republicans) know they will, will you still be supporting those who would use the budget and the debt ceiling to try to destroy the PPACA no matter how many presidential elections Republicans lose as a result? OR.... If the next Republican Nominee loses AGAIN running on repealing Obamacare will you finally admit defeat? Guess thats an open question to Tea party/repeal advocates.
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On October 02 2013 17:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 17:40 Danglars wrote:You do remember this part though right?
"Sixty-four percent opposed Gingrich’s re-election as speaker in January 1997. And when he announced in November 1998 that he was stepping down, 70 percent approved." All after what he accomplished and the weariness at the spin directed his way. Also, if you're going to use quotes floating there, as if from a direct quote, give the rest of us the courtesy of attributing the quote. It's either knowledge you picked up along the way, in which case the poll would be helpful, or it's a secondary source on the poll, where you are in effect plagiarizing.
Whether or not it's a disaster in the end for your country as a whole, I think everyone should be showing some sympathy for the almost 1 million people that aren't being paid for their jobs while the shutdown happens, it's quite a huge number of people.... Even if what some people in this thread say is true and they get paid back for any missed pay in the future, it can very badly affect somebody's life to even miss a single one.
I too wish Harry Reid, Obama, and the rest of the Democrats had taken steps towards compromise here. It's sad to bring runaway spending and costly laws under control with such tactics, but the other ways of trying to get the rest of Congress to listen have hitherto failed. The millions that will be or have been negatively impacted by Obamacare in the health care quality received or the premium costs increasing are crying out too. Is Washington listening?
You really are quite daft.
The Republicans grew spines? Did you not pay attention to how this country was governed for the past 13 years? Republicans have been ruthlessly effective and hard willed, and Democrats haven't stood up to them.
And this time the Republicans lost. They lost on the bill, which became a law. They lost on the election, where your "idealogue" was re-elected handily, and seats were gained. They lost in the Supreme Court, where the law they call unconstitutional was quite literally held to be constitutional. There is no fucking debate anymore.
Boehner can't reel in the party because he doesn't have control of it anymore. Now it's just a bunch of brash spotlight seekers making a name for themselves, without any party strategy to back it up. They're completely fucked on this one, and the 1995 stoppage is a terrible analogy if you've actually paid attention to what went on then and what's going on now.
Boehner caved on every debt limit fight. Boehner didn't seek answers on our lost men in the Benghazi attack. Boehner, for the past year, has spent more of his time bashing the conservative wing of his party than the opposition. He has sent his staff to do the same thing. He has surrendered leadership on the immigration issue, remaining silent or in quiet support of amnesty. He has caved when he voiced support for tax increases on the rich. I know, Jibba, that it's rather hard to see from the other side of the aisle. The same would exist if Reid was ignoring his Democratic constituency--I wouldn't be intimate with all the promises he made his supporters upon becoming Senate majority leader. This is basically the first time he hasn't turned against his party's conservative wing. The 2010 wave that swept him into power became disillusioned with his performance pretty quickly. He has been a follower with a leader title for quite some time, far from a modern Gingrich or a Republican version of Tip O'Neill. Just curious though. Provided the tea party fails at stopping Obamacare like every non-Republican (and several Republicans) know they will, will you still be supporting those who would use the budget and the debt ceiling to try to destroy the PPACA no matter how many presidential elections Republicans lose as a result? OR.... If the next Republican Nominee loses AGAIN running on repealing Obamacare will you finally admit defeat? Guess thats an open question to Tea party/repeal advocates.
I would support them, sure. The point of this isn't necessarily to stop Obamacare in it's tracks. It is much deeper than that. I don't subscribe to the notion that Republicans will lose any Presidential elections because of Obamacare (keep in mind that Obamacare is opposed by a wide majority of Americans). And if they lose because of defunding the government for a few weeks, well... we'll have to see when and if that happens.
Will I ever admit defeat? That's a tough question. Will I admit that Republicans were defeated in 2012? Of course they were. I was on this very site not ten minutes after the race was called to admit that I was wrong and to congratulate the Democrats on their win. Will I ever think that Republicans should stop fighting for what I believe in? Of course not. Loss and defeat do not affect what I believe in. What is right is right, regardless of whether it is popular or not.
Will I ever admit that the strategy is bad? Well, sure, if the strategy fails than it is probably a bad strategy. Whether it fails or not is much more complicated than: Did we win the next election or not? But if it is absolutely unsuccessful than we would need to switch strategies. I'm not married to the hard-line stance. I'm disillusioned with deal-cutting and election-waiting... and it feels good to have my representatives actually doing something for once... but I can put aside such feelings if the strategy is poisoned. If deal-cutting and waiting on the next election is the way to go, than we should go that way.
The problem here is not that you are stupid, or that we are stupid. The problem here is that you haven't the slightest clue what it's felt like to be a Republican for the last two decades. Obviously you can't understand the Republican frustration, and this obviously means that to you, it looks foreign. That's why you get the obviously wrong impression of it.
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On October 02 2013 17:50 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 17:20 tokinho wrote:
Standard republican selfish rich serving mentality.
Republicans so mad that sick/disabled people have to be helped. So mad that kids want to get educated. For all this bitching about "democracy" I notice there is a severe lack of asking for a referendum on Obamacare. For all this whining about the way the "system" is supposed to work, I notice there is a severe lack of complaining about how Obamacare was passed (and has been implemented), which was much more an unprecedented mockery than the way Republicans are dealing with it.
Democracy as we know it is a representative, parliamentary system. You vote for people who vote for laws. People voted for Obama, Obama implemented his healthcare system he was elected to implement. Why would you make a Referendum.
Now you will tell me, oh but it's no real Democracy then because people right now are against Obamacare. But the reason representative system is so much better than doing stuff by Referendum is that public opinion is incredibly easy to manipulate, and people extremely easy to scare. Obamacare is a textbook example of why we DON'T do things by referendum. It's actually fairly easy with a hysterical campaign and powerful medias to convince poor or middle class people that having a free universal healthcare is the worst thing that can happen to them. Especially when your mate that share your ultrarich, white people interests, owns Fox News (and any other far right propaganda media).
You will tell me Swiss system works with Referendums and it's quite efficient. But Swiss is tiny, the average level and intellectual quality of their citizen is about a zillion time better than in most places in the States (no offense, it's no generalization, just a consequence of their very good public education system...) and even then, you get completely ridiculous bills being voted than no parliament would ever adopt because of how dumb they are, such as the interdiction of minaret when there are virtually no Muslims and certainly not the slightest problem with Islam in Switzerland.
For a the other side of the argument, France voted the abolition of death penalty when a large majority of people still supported it. Thanks god we don't guillotine people anymore. That make us one step further from barbary, and thirty years after, almost nobody support it anymore.
TL;DR: It's precisely because people are against it that Obamacare shouldn't be the subject to a Referendum. That's this paradox that makes democracy actually work.
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On October 02 2013 18:16 Jumperer wrote:
We all should thank the house republicans from preventing this country from getting destroyed by obama.
What are you talking about?
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I feel bad for the people who dont get their paychecks and need them.
Politicians that do things like this to their own people, just to prove their view is better than the others, are a shame, and joke. They shouldnt be politicians. Its really just stubborn kindergarten behaviour.
This is great great comedy again for the rest of the world, with a sad by-taste. I feel bad for every U.S. citizen who is being represented by such people. Then again a lot voted for them, guess i should only feel bad for the poeple who dont support such tards.
On October 02 2013 18:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 18:16 Jumperer wrote:
We all should thank the house republicans from preventing this country from getting destroyed by obama. What are you talking about?
thats most likely irony
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On October 02 2013 18:26 freewareplayer wrote:I feel bad for the people who dont get their paychecks and need them. Politicians that do things like this to their own people, just to prove their view is better than the others, are a shame, and joke. They shouldnt be politicians. Its really just stubborn kindergarten behaviour. This is great great comedy again for the rest of the world, with a sad by-taste. I feel bad for every U.S. citizen who is being represented by such people. Then again a lot voted for them, guess i should only feel bad for the poeple who dont support such tards. Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 18:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 02 2013 18:16 Jumperer wrote:
We all should thank the house republicans from preventing this country from getting destroyed by obama. What are you talking about? thats most likely irony
Hopefully...
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On October 02 2013 17:23 red_hq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 17:09 Cillas wrote:On October 02 2013 17:04 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 02 2013 16:17 Phenny wrote:
I think this is pretty great, people will pretty soon realise how little government actually matters when nothing remotely apocalyptic occurs as a result. Says someone who obviously isn't counting on their paycheck to pay their bills and feed their children, that won't arrive as long as the Federal Government is closed.... psssssssssssssssssst, that sounds like it would only occur to p o o r people Or you know, anyone employed at NASA, rail road operations, high-way operations, park rangers, government employed researchers, or anyone that is in any way funded by the governemnt.
Anyone on a good wage should have enough saved to last 6-12 months in my opinion. Bad things happen and unless you're living hand to mouth you should plan for a sudden stop in your income, so it's a fair assertion to say that only the poor would should be affected dramatically by a delayed / absent paycheck.
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EPT
