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On July 08 2013 06:56 oneofthem wrote:
disembodied consciousness is quite a bit more ridiculous though, given what biology tells us. you have to fit that best possible neuroscience in somewhere. as vague as talk about degrees of ridiculous can be, we do know that there are no ghosts or souls.
We have no evidence of ghosts or souls. But that's the entire point of epiphenomena. Since they don't interact with the physical universe, there wouldn't be -- couldn't be, by definition -- evidence for them whether they exist or not.
And yet people will accept the concept that (even in principle) philosophical zombies could claim to experience qualia, and accurately describe the sensory experience of qualia, without actually experiencing said qualia. That any argument which could possibly be made by a conscious being in favor of consciousness requiring an additional specification on top of our deterministic laws, would also be made by a non-conscious being operating under the exact same deterministic laws.
To me, if that doesn't narrow down the choices to materialism or substance dualism (ie an extra-physical consciousness which does in some way affect the physical universe), then you might as well believe we are surrounded by disembodied non-interactive consciousnesses.
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On July 08 2013 07:00 Signet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 06:52 Shiori wrote:On July 08 2013 06:45 Signet wrote:
Satire. Although I will note that the idea of an epiphenomenal consciousness that lacks a body capable of expressing that consciousness isn't any more ridiculous than the idea of philosophical zombies writing books about their own consciousness that they are not actually experiencing. Philosophical zombies are thought experiments. Obviously they're ridiculous. That's the point. It's kinda like Schrodinger's Cat. Obviously the example itself is utterly silly, but that's the point of the example: to be silly and yet still obey the parameters of some stated system. Yeah I know  Look at the rock that doesn't show any evidence of consciousness but nonetheless experiences it epiphenomenally in the same way. If consciousness were truly epiphenomenal (which is an actual philosophical position), there's no reason it couldn't exist outside of a human brain.
Agreed.
I like the idea of epiphenomenalism, but I don't think the arguments for it are very compelling.
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On July 08 2013 06:52 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 06:45 Signet wrote:
Satire. Although I will note that the idea of an epiphenomenal consciousness that lacks a body capable of expressing that consciousness isn't any more ridiculous than the idea of philosophical zombies writing books about their own consciousness that they are not actually experiencing. Philosophical zombies are thought experiments. Obviously they're ridiculous. That's the point. It's kinda like Schrodinger's Cat. Obviously the example itself is utterly silly, but that's the point of the example: to be silly and yet still obey the parameters of some stated system.
Eh, I take the opposite view. It seems that given anything to work with, the "philosopher" will always do the dullest thing with it. Assuming the existence of Zombies opens the door for all kinds of possibilities. Yet we can't do anything better than saying that we can't prove that Zombies aren't just like humans. Philosophical zombies aren't ridiculous because they seem absurd. They're ridiculous because of how absurdly banal they are.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On July 08 2013 07:01 Signet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 06:56 oneofthem wrote:
disembodied consciousness is quite a bit more ridiculous though, given what biology tells us. you have to fit that best possible neuroscience in somewhere. as vague as talk about degrees of ridiculous can be, we do know that there are no ghosts or souls.
We have no evidence of ghosts or souls. But that's the entire point of epiphenomena. Since they don't interact with the physical universe, there wouldn't be -- couldn't be, by definition -- evidence for them whether they exist or not.
epiphenomenalism is a rather crude way of rejecting the causal physical efficacy of mental objects, without having to get rid of themm altogether ala eliminativism. its point is not to posit a new and queer metaphysical category. so in this way we don't even have to talk about whether souls are ridiculous to think that disembodied minds are ridiculous as understood in epiphenomenalism.
though, your philosophy of mind has to give all respect to positive explanations of the mind aka best possible neuroscience to be worth anything.
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Signet and shiori,
Please stick to the thread title.
Like your argument over the MWI. If you see the results over very few trials tending towards a solution you prefer to ask is the yard stick wrong or is what I'm measuring changing each time. This paradox was resolved later on with quantum field theories. (quantum field theories volumes 1,2,3 are good readings on the subject) Everyone knows that uncertainty goes away as the number of trials increases(pt 2 of heisenberg uncertainty principle, see bohm quantum theory). Thus, neurons don't exhibit mathematical behavior like quantum objects and the mind does not exhibit fractional behavior (I.e. You don't make both decisions, see common sense or any neurology textbook). The mind works more like a feedback system. You make one decision weigh it out, then make the other weight it out and whichever wins is the one decision you make.
Don't confuse the mathematical models. Probabilities in quantum theory are not markov models, which accurately describe the brain.
What you are talking about has nothing directly to do with the thread title.
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On July 08 2013 07:01 Signet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 06:56 oneofthem wrote:
disembodied consciousness is quite a bit more ridiculous though, given what biology tells us. you have to fit that best possible neuroscience in somewhere. as vague as talk about degrees of ridiculous can be, we do know that there are no ghosts or souls.
We have no evidence of ghosts or souls. But that's the entire point of epiphenomena. Since they don't interact with the physical universe, there wouldn't be -- couldn't be, by definition -- evidence for them whether they exist or not.
Despite our failure to present empirical evidence, its not like theres 0 evidence.
In rural Brazil a poor black woman who lived in a small community in the middle of nowhere started showing some serious symptoms of confusion and schizophreny, the weird part is that she started speaking in a language nobody knew.
At the hospital they called for someone from the university to go there with a recorder (this was over 40 years ago) and record what she was saying to be analysed by some sort of linguistic specialist at the university.
The woman became fine a day after she was recorded and couldnt remember what had happened
A few months of study later the lisguistic specialist finally managed to pin down what as being said by the woman, it was an ancient dialect of german usually spoken in switzerland in 1700's, saying things like
"Where am I, whats happening, where are my servants ? Who the hell are you and where the hell am I?"
This is all recorded in the federal university of rio records.
So yes, we cant prove anything, but there is indeed evidence of there being something else.
And obviously, afaik, she could barely speak portuguese, didnt knew any other languages before or after this incident, no one has been able to explain this without some "disembodied consciousness" ridiculousness
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On July 08 2013 07:14 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:01 Signet wrote:On July 08 2013 06:56 oneofthem wrote:
disembodied consciousness is quite a bit more ridiculous though, given what biology tells us. you have to fit that best possible neuroscience in somewhere. as vague as talk about degrees of ridiculous can be, we do know that there are no ghosts or souls.
We have no evidence of ghosts or souls. But that's the entire point of epiphenomena. Since they don't interact with the physical universe, there wouldn't be -- couldn't be, by definition -- evidence for them whether they exist or not. Despite our failure to present empirical evidence, its not like theres 0 evidence. In rural Brazil a poor black woman who lived in a small community in the middle of nowhere started showing some serious symptoms of confusion and schizophreny, the weird part is that she started speaking in a language nobody knew. At the hospital they called for someone from the university to go there with a recorder (this was over 40 years ago) and record what she was saying to be analysed by some sort of linguistic specialist at the university. The woman became fine a day after she was recorded and couldnt remember what had happened A few months of study later the lisguistic specialist finally managed to pin down what as being said by the woman, it was an ancient dialect of german usually spoken in switzerland in 1700's, saying things like "Where am I, whats happening, where are my servants ? Who the hell are you and where the hell am I?" This is all recorded in the federal university of rio records. So yes, we cant prove anything, but there is indeed evidence of there being something else. And obviously, afaik, she could barely speak portuguese, didnt knew any other languages before or after this incident, no one has been able to explain this without some "disembodied consciousness" ridiculousness
I can explain it pretty easily - this never actually happened.
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On July 08 2013 07:11 tokinho wrote:
Signet and shiori,
Please stick to the thread title.
Like your argument over the MWI. If you see the results over very few trials tending towards a solution you prefer to ask is the yard stick wrong or is what I'm measuring changing each time. This paradox was resolved later on with quantum field theories. (quantum field theories volumes 1,2,3 are good readings on the subject) Everyone knows that uncertainty goes away as the number of trials increases(pt 2 of heisenberg uncertainty principle, see bohm quantum theory). Thus, neurons don't exhibit mathematical behavior like quantum objects and the mind does not exhibit fractional behavior (I.e. You don't make both decisions, see common sense or any neurology textbook). The mind works more like a feedback system. You make one decision weigh it out, then make the other weight it out and whichever wins is the one decision you make.
Don't confuse the mathematical models. Probabilities in quantum theory are not markov models, which accurately describe the brain.
What you are talking about has nothing directly to do with the thread title.
MWI got off topic I don't see how discussing determinism vs epiphenomenalism is off topic. That seems to be exactly what the topic is supposed to be. (is consciousness "merely" chemicals and electricity, or is there something more)
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On July 08 2013 07:24 politik wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:14 D10 wrote:On July 08 2013 07:01 Signet wrote:On July 08 2013 06:56 oneofthem wrote:
disembodied consciousness is quite a bit more ridiculous though, given what biology tells us. you have to fit that best possible neuroscience in somewhere. as vague as talk about degrees of ridiculous can be, we do know that there are no ghosts or souls.
We have no evidence of ghosts or souls. But that's the entire point of epiphenomena. Since they don't interact with the physical universe, there wouldn't be -- couldn't be, by definition -- evidence for them whether they exist or not. Despite our failure to present empirical evidence, its not like theres 0 evidence. In rural Brazil a poor black woman who lived in a small community in the middle of nowhere started showing some serious symptoms of confusion and schizophreny, the weird part is that she started speaking in a language nobody knew. At the hospital they called for someone from the university to go there with a recorder (this was over 40 years ago) and record what she was saying to be analysed by some sort of linguistic specialist at the university. The woman became fine a day after she was recorded and couldnt remember what had happened A few months of study later the lisguistic specialist finally managed to pin down what as being said by the woman, it was an ancient dialect of german usually spoken in switzerland in 1700's, saying things like "Where am I, whats happening, where are my servants ? Who the hell are you and where the hell am I?" This is all recorded in the federal university of rio records. So yes, we cant prove anything, but there is indeed evidence of there being something else. And obviously, afaik, she could barely speak portuguese, didnt knew any other languages before or after this incident, no one has been able to explain this without some "disembodied consciousness" ridiculousness I can explain it pretty easily - this never actually happened.
=) You act like a barbarian that due to never having left his island doesnt believe there is a world beyond it.
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I was always perplexed as to why people put so much worth into self-awareness. Sorry, just because you think that makes you special doesn't make it so. You are a worthless arrangement of matter just like everything else.
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On July 08 2013 07:25 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:24 politik wrote:On July 08 2013 07:14 D10 wrote:On July 08 2013 07:01 Signet wrote:On July 08 2013 06:56 oneofthem wrote:
disembodied consciousness is quite a bit more ridiculous though, given what biology tells us. you have to fit that best possible neuroscience in somewhere. as vague as talk about degrees of ridiculous can be, we do know that there are no ghosts or souls.
We have no evidence of ghosts or souls. But that's the entire point of epiphenomena. Since they don't interact with the physical universe, there wouldn't be -- couldn't be, by definition -- evidence for them whether they exist or not. Despite our failure to present empirical evidence, its not like theres 0 evidence. In rural Brazil a poor black woman who lived in a small community in the middle of nowhere started showing some serious symptoms of confusion and schizophreny, the weird part is that she started speaking in a language nobody knew. At the hospital they called for someone from the university to go there with a recorder (this was over 40 years ago) and record what she was saying to be analysed by some sort of linguistic specialist at the university. The woman became fine a day after she was recorded and couldnt remember what had happened A few months of study later the lisguistic specialist finally managed to pin down what as being said by the woman, it was an ancient dialect of german usually spoken in switzerland in 1700's, saying things like "Where am I, whats happening, where are my servants ? Who the hell are you and where the hell am I?" This is all recorded in the federal university of rio records. So yes, we cant prove anything, but there is indeed evidence of there being something else. And obviously, afaik, she could barely speak portuguese, didnt knew any other languages before or after this incident, no one has been able to explain this without some "disembodied consciousness" ridiculousness I can explain it pretty easily - this never actually happened. =) You act like a barbarian that due to never having left his island doesnt believe there is a world beyond it.
I'm with him. Post a precise reliable source before saying stuff like this.
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On July 08 2013 07:25 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:24 politik wrote:On July 08 2013 07:14 D10 wrote:On July 08 2013 07:01 Signet wrote:On July 08 2013 06:56 oneofthem wrote:
disembodied consciousness is quite a bit more ridiculous though, given what biology tells us. you have to fit that best possible neuroscience in somewhere. as vague as talk about degrees of ridiculous can be, we do know that there are no ghosts or souls.
We have no evidence of ghosts or souls. But that's the entire point of epiphenomena. Since they don't interact with the physical universe, there wouldn't be -- couldn't be, by definition -- evidence for them whether they exist or not. Despite our failure to present empirical evidence, its not like theres 0 evidence. In rural Brazil a poor black woman who lived in a small community in the middle of nowhere started showing some serious symptoms of confusion and schizophreny, the weird part is that she started speaking in a language nobody knew. At the hospital they called for someone from the university to go there with a recorder (this was over 40 years ago) and record what she was saying to be analysed by some sort of linguistic specialist at the university. The woman became fine a day after she was recorded and couldnt remember what had happened A few months of study later the lisguistic specialist finally managed to pin down what as being said by the woman, it was an ancient dialect of german usually spoken in switzerland in 1700's, saying things like "Where am I, whats happening, where are my servants ? Who the hell are you and where the hell am I?" This is all recorded in the federal university of rio records. So yes, we cant prove anything, but there is indeed evidence of there being something else. And obviously, afaik, she could barely speak portuguese, didnt knew any other languages before or after this incident, no one has been able to explain this without some "disembodied consciousness" ridiculousness I can explain it pretty easily - this never actually happened. =) You act like a barbarian that due to never having left his island doesnt believe there is a world beyond it.
I'm sorry, but it reads more like you wrote it off the top of your head than from memory. And assuming you won't provide a source, there's no reason whatsoever to take it seriously.
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On July 08 2013 07:26 Rhaegal wrote:
I was always perplexed as to why people put so much worth into self-awareness. Sorry, just because you think that makes you special doesn't make it so. You are a worthless arrangement of matter just like everything else.
sorry until you can find my worthless arrangement of matter that is my subjective experience of the universe, I am a very special butterfly
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On July 08 2013 07:25 Signet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:11 tokinho wrote:
Signet and shiori,
Please stick to the thread title.
Like your argument over the MWI. If you see the results over very few trials tending towards a solution you prefer to ask is the yard stick wrong or is what I'm measuring changing each time. This paradox was resolved later on with quantum field theories. (quantum field theories volumes 1,2,3 are good readings on the subject) Everyone knows that uncertainty goes away as the number of trials increases(pt 2 of heisenberg uncertainty principle, see bohm quantum theory). Thus, neurons don't exhibit mathematical behavior like quantum objects and the mind does not exhibit fractional behavior (I.e. You don't make both decisions, see common sense or any neurology textbook). The mind works more like a feedback system. You make one decision weigh it out, then make the other weight it out and whichever wins is the one decision you make.
Don't confuse the mathematical models. Probabilities in quantum theory are not markov models, which accurately describe the brain.
What you are talking about has nothing directly to do with the thread title. MWI got off topic I don't see how discussing determinism vs epiphenomenalism is off topic. That seems to be exactly what the topic is supposed to be. (is consciousness "merely" chemicals and electricity, or is there something more)
<3
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On July 08 2013 07:26 Rhaegal wrote:
I was always perplexed as to why people put so much worth into self-awareness. Sorry, just because you think that makes you special doesn't make it so. You are a worthless arrangement of matter just like everything else.
This assumes there's some endless personality of the cosmos judging our value, and not us doing the judgement.
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I'm sure you appreciate the difference between speaking random gibberish and fluently speaking in a language they couldn't possibly know. I still fail to see any claims of the latter.
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I feel as though the better question is: "Why are you not comfortable with the possibility that the mind (for lack of a better word) is exclusively a function of physical phenomena (i.e., chemicals and electricity)?"
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On July 08 2013 07:14 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2013 07:01 Signet wrote:On July 08 2013 06:56 oneofthem wrote:
disembodied consciousness is quite a bit more ridiculous though, given what biology tells us. you have to fit that best possible neuroscience in somewhere. as vague as talk about degrees of ridiculous can be, we do know that there are no ghosts or souls.
We have no evidence of ghosts or souls. But that's the entire point of epiphenomena. Since they don't interact with the physical universe, there wouldn't be -- couldn't be, by definition -- evidence for them whether they exist or not. Despite our failure to present empirical evidence, its not like theres 0 evidence. In rural Brazil a poor black woman who lived in a small community in the middle of nowhere started showing some serious symptoms of confusion and schizophreny, the weird part is that she started speaking in a language nobody knew. At the hospital they called for someone from the university to go there with a recorder (this was over 40 years ago) and record what she was saying to be analysed by some sort of linguistic specialist at the university. The woman became fine a day after she was recorded and couldnt remember what had happened A few months of study later the lisguistic specialist finally managed to pin down what as being said by the woman, it was an ancient dialect of german usually spoken in switzerland in 1700's, saying things like "Where am I, whats happening, where are my servants ? Who the hell are you and where the hell am I?" This is all recorded in the federal university of rio records. So yes, we cant prove anything, but there is indeed evidence of there being something else. And obviously, afaik, she could barely speak portuguese, didnt knew any other languages before or after this incident, no one has been able to explain this without some "disembodied consciousness" ridiculousness
Ok, let's take this at face value and assume for the sake of argument it is true.
This would still not be an epiphenomenon. Granting this woman the ability to speak in a language she doesn't know is definitely an effect. So, in principle, this effect could be detected, and it could be determined that there is nothing in the chemistry and electricity of the brain that should allow you to spontaneously gain fluency in a foreign language you've never been exposed to. So this might be evidence in favor of the substance dualist position - that consciousness comes from the physical parts of the brain, plus extra-physical stuff that has an effect on the brain.
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EPT
