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The EU isn't perfect and there are aspects of it I don't like. But I share values with a lot of European people, in fact despite speaking the same language, I feel I have more in common with German & French people than I do with American or Australians. As a continent we face similar challenges and I feel that showing solidarity in these times is more important than anything else.
The other thing for me is the people associated with the campaigns, For me personally I can't stand the idea of being associated with people like Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage , Gove or thousands of racist people in this country who's only reason for getting out of the EU is a dislike of foreign people. That isn't to say everyone voting leave is like that but overall it is a campaign that I don't want to be a part of.
Another thing that the UK has trouble accepting is that in a European Parliament consisting of democratically elected (!) MPs from over two dozens of different European nations they can no longer easily and unilaterally push through their own interests at the cost of everyone else's.
Please explain how the EU enforcing austerity on Greece has helped their economy.
As for that youtube video: leaving the EU will do nought for low-skilled workers because low-skilled labour in the West is just too expensive compared to East Asia (or Africa in about a decade or so). Newsflash: there is a reason why every economy in West Europe has slowly been evolving towards service economies instead of 1960s style manufacturing economies. I would also like to point out that the only reason that the EU didn't impose tariffs on Chinese steel was because of the UK government being against it. As that nice lady towards the end of the video pointed out: the UK is just about the only country with zero hour contracts. Blame your own politicians for the state your country is in, and stop voting for demagogues such as Farage or Cameron.
What does manufacturing have to do with it? We are talking about low paid service jobs here.Cleaners, bartenders, waitstaff, shop assistants.... You say that the UK can no longer push through it's own interests but then go on to say they didn't impose tariffs because of the UK.Make your mind up.
You can not pay the EU membership fees, and EU imposed taxes (VAT taxes), and support your own agriculture rather than the failing EU agriculture.
You can avoid joining in the failing EU economy with low growth and high youth employment.
You'll still have trade with the EU, but at your own therms.
Yes the market will have a downturn, but the remain side is lying to you when they are calling it a disaster.
The only way UK is going to trade with EU is if they get an agreement similar to Norway, which
1) Is highly unlikely. The deal is almost certainly going to be pretty terrible for the UK as the EU will want to emphasize that leaving is not beneficial and after all the UK needs access to the EU-market more than the other way around. 2) Means they have to live up to EU-regulations with zero influence over the policies implemented.
EDIT:
On June 17 2016 00:37 Maenander wrote: A rise of hooliganism, assassination attempts, right-wing terrorism. This is what all the fear-mongering in Europe has brought us to. It seems like rational discourse is a thing of the past.
Let's not pretend that left-wingers are innocent in this.
The UK is Germany's biggest export market, it's definitely in their interest to come to an agreement, getting a Norway style deal is pretty much the worst case scenario and it's basically the same as what we have now.
Edit: ok it's not the worst case scenario but it's the most likely worst case scenario
It's not basically the same as what you have now. It's the same regulations as you have now without any of the influence you currently hold. It's a pretty damn bad scenario, and it is much more likely you get a worse deal as EU is largely tired of the Swiss/Norwegian deals.
Difference is that those regulations would now only apply to businesses dealing directly with EU countries instead of to all businesses, and it's not like we have much influence over said regulations at the moment anyway
If the UK decides to create its own regulations akin to the EU directives then it's basically imposing an added cost of compliance for UK businesses, making it costlier to export. It'll also be a cost on EU businesses exporting to the UK, and that will surely be reflected on higher prices. Not to mention the cost of drawing up your own regulation. For that reason it'll make the most economic sense for the UK to continue to follow the EU directives.
People need to talk more about regulations rather than the rubbish flying around (i mean on the media here). Since i am involved in the regulatory field, i don't even want to start to think about how much it will cost if we left EU.
The simplest example i just told my housemate is that, imagine X product that you use daily that we imported from certain EU country, and regulation says ok you cant raise the price of X product for more than 0.001-0.005% per year. If we left EU that regulation will not apply to us and then troubles happen, prices raise price drop, competitions come and go, small medium companies will get crushed so hard (they will not be able to see that coming at all), and ultimately common folks (like me) will get affected big time. And the rich? they would have prepared better and even if they had 0 backup plan, everything will be fine for them anyway - at worst, one less holiday beach house this year. And whats the worst thing, we have literally 0 export that any other countries want.
In the past decade you hear people blame everything on immigrants. We don't want to work at McDonald's, we blame foreigners who are willing to take those jobs as 'they come here to take our jobs' (and usually comes with 'and our women', and i won't go into that). so if we actually leave EU (it won't), i would like to see how would people react when £ crash like mad, and maybe then they will stfu about blaming foreigners etc. I am saying this because this is a country where when people see a black man drives a Mercedes they will bat an eye on, up north will be fine with this, but try south england (bar london) you see this so evidently. British need to see that the problems lie deep down in the system but stop blaming foreigners/EU, changes are needed to improve alot of issues in this country - not saying that EU has no issues or influence to this mess, EU will definitely need some changes (to work better with UK and every other countries) after the referendum.
So the bottomline is, i never care about politics, as a common folk who works in the field where money comes from regulations themselves, no changes will affect my job/income anyway - except war and this goddamn UK leaving EU change. I mean, if you are poor/average, you have no reason to vote leave, because we will not suddenly get a pay raise 'oh because we left EU so we have more money to pay you :D), and if changes will hit us hard (and it will) and no matter what you say about 'oh it is just a temporary pain' i will not want to see all the goddamn prices raise in the next few years; if you are rich (i mean truly rich, like at least half a mil income per annual), i just dont see how/why would you want to vote no, same thing you will need to spend more here and there but that probably doesn't come out from your own pocket, and that money will probably be equal to hiring someone for 1 year, 1 job less, vote leave or stay literally mean 'meh' to the rich.
There are many thousands of reasons to leave.
You should not look to your own job as justification, either way. It's not a vote about your job. It's a vote about the EU; about the corrupt system that is eroding democracy in Europe.
EU constitution: French people vote NO. Dutch people vote NO. What does the EU do? It renames it to the Lisbon Treaty and doesn't give them another vote. The Irish vote NO to the Lisbon Treaty. So the EU makes them take the vote again, because the reality is that the EU will not let one nation stand in its way. Of course, if referendums had been held in other counties - especially the UK - they would have had to admit that it was not just Ireland who didn't want the Lisbon Treaty, but many other nations.
Everything the EU does relies on the people having no say.
In the words of Juncker, the head of the EU commission: there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.
Let's take a look at what else this pillar of western democracy has said:
--When it becomes serious, you have to lie.
--If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’
--We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.
--Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?
--In the very long run, we will need a European army. Because we have to be credible when it comes to foreign policy
--A common European army would convey a clear message to Russia that we are serious about defending our European values.
This is what you're voting for. Not your job. Not some notion of European fraternity. You're voting for a collection of unelected crackpots to continue playing at being big powerful politicians at the expense of the European peoples.
The only reason Great Britain wants out is because they have finally realised that their biggest historical project, preventing France and Germany from becoming the most powerful bloc on the continent, has failed. Despite having lost two world wars, Germany is now the most powerful European country. When Germany and France put both their shoulders under something, it usually gets through the EU parliament without much trouble. In the eastern bloc Poland and Hungary are also increasingly spreading their influence. Despite going through recessions, neither Portugal, Spain or Greece have any intention of leaving the EU.
Another thing that the UK has trouble accepting is that in a European Parliament consisting of democratically elected (!) MPs from over two dozens of different European nations they can no longer easily and unilaterally push through their own interests at the cost of everyone else's. This may of course lead to the illusion that leaving the EU will enable it to wield its former influence again, but the truth is that the UK is no longer an empire or world power, but an island nation that is increasingly divided from within: Scotland threatens do have another referendum on independence if the Leave camp wins, low-skilled workers increasingly experience difficulties in finding stable, secure jobs which heavily affects former industrial cities such as Manchester while people working in London's financial sector rake in millions.
So for now the UK can still blame the EU for all its woes (even though the harm is largely self-inflicted). I'm still curious who will be the scapegoat when it turns out that leaving the EU did not solve any of the problems at all (because it won't).
As for that youtube video: leaving the EU will do nought for low-skilled workers because low-skilled labour in the West is just too expensive compared to East Asia (or Africa in about a decade or so). Newsflash: there is a reason why every economy in West Europe has slowly been evolving towards service economies instead of 1960s style manufacturing economies. I would also like to point out that the only reason that the EU didn't impose tariffs on Chinese steel was because of the UK government being against it. As that nice lady towards the end of the video pointed out: the UK is just about the only country with zero hour contracts. Blame your own politicians for the state your country is in, and stop voting for demagogues such as Farage or Cameron.
Everything you say is illustrative of just how broken the pro-EU thought process is. You are celebrating the fact that your entire project benefits one country: Germany. You're celebrating the fact that the recoveries of Greece and Spain are stitched together by the health of the German economy. What an achievement, to have created a currency that benefits one nation and leaves the rest of the continent utterly reliant on it! You're celebrating the fact that two countries have essentially all the power. What could possibly go wrong? No country has any plan of leaving the EU despite their economic woes - oh, have you asked them? Have you asked the people of Greece, with over 70% unfavourable opinion of the EU, and 90% unfavourable opnion of EU economics, if they want to leave?
No, you haven't. Because democracy would undermine your entire project, wouldn't it?
As for the guy above who thought it was self evident that the EU would need an army - please reassess your entire outlook on the world. You do not put armed forces under the control of unelected idealogues who have demonstrated that they have no respect for democracy/the people.
On June 19 2016 17:24 KelsierSC wrote: From my perspective this is a vote of character.
The EU isn't perfect and there are aspects of it I don't like. But I share values with a lot of European people, in fact despite speaking the same language, I feel I have more in common with German & French people than I do with American or Australians. As a continent we face similar challenges and I feel that showing solidarity in these times is more important than anything else.
The other thing for me is the people associated with the campaigns, For me personally I can't stand the idea of being associated with people like Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage , Gove or thousands of racist people in this country who's only reason for getting out of the EU is a dislike of foreign people. That isn't to say everyone voting leave is like that but overall it is a campaign that I don't want to be a part of.
Your first point doesn't add up because the peoples of Europe are roughly split on the EU. About half of them have unfavourable opinions of the EU, even in Germany. More than half, in France.
Your second point just shows complacency. Vote on issues, not personalities.
On June 19 2016 23:13 Jockmcplop wrote: I love that graphic none of it surprises me in the least.
Shows a huge gap between traditional core labour voters and their policy.The Midlands, C2, DE, lower education.This is Labours core.Some other forums are suggesting we could see a collapse in the labour vote similar to what happened in Scotland in many areas.
On June 19 2016 23:13 Jockmcplop wrote: I love that graphic none of it surprises me in the least.
Shows a huge gap between traditional core labour voters and their policy.The Midlands, C2, DE, lower education.This is Labours core.Some other forums are suggesting we could see a collapse in the labour vote similar to what happened in Scotland in many areas.
What are you on about? The labour core is in cities, the midlands is traditional tory country. This is common knowledge. The East Midlands and East Anglia (where I was born and grew up) is where the Daily Mail rules the roost and anything but white people are very hard to find. It makes some decent points, but the geographical demographic it refers to applied in the 70s, and hasn't done since. This discussion also seems to be pretending that we are still an industrial economy. Bizarre The graphic also shows that well educated people want to stay. People with no education want to leave. Its almost as if they are easily manipulated by fears of immigration etc.
Anyway the gap isn't huge. Labour have been reasonably tentative about the remain campaign compared to the Tories.
Just as a quick bit of evidence i'll refer you to this voting map from 2015, which shows how people in the East Midlands and East Anglia voted (ie pretty much 100% tory) http://www.tallyroom.com.au/tag/united-kingdom/page/2
The low education low skill worker fears immigration because he is the one most affected by it..More competition for work, lower wages.These are Labours core. Both Labour and the Conservatives will have an identity crisis whatever happens with the poll.
On June 19 2016 23:44 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The low education low skill worker fears immigration because he is the one most affected by it..More competition for work, lower wages.These are Labours core.
All of this could be solved by building more houses, like governments are supposed to, and regulating huge companies so they pay decent wages, like governments are supposed to! Its much easier just blame foreigners though.
Both Labour and the Conservatives will have an identity crisis whatever happens with the poll.
This I agree with. Labour have been having an identity crisis for a long time now, split between centrist and leftist MPs, neither of whom seem to be able to properly get their message across to the people who want to hear it. The Tories are having internal problems which I don't think will really affect their voting base.
On June 19 2016 21:56 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah he's principled etc. and I love him for that but I don't know if I've ever seen someone so drastically misjudge the public mood.
What do you mean by this? He's always been a eurosceptic, and he's doing a very half arsed job of defending it while doing a much more emphatic job of flaming the tories. It's the ideal play for him. Cameron and Osborne have completely alienated their own party and popular support. They have no future after this. If anything Corbyn is winning support for his moderate stance.
I was talking about his comments on immigration specifically. The rest of his Labour colleagues (McDonnell, Watson etc.) are talking about the need to look at immigration within the EU and see what can be done to tackle it while Corbyn just says nope, sorry we like it.
On June 19 2016 23:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: North east, north west not mentioned but i'd assume slight leave lead due to results in other english regions.
What is C1, C2 and DE social class ? C1 = richest right ? The "left" on the wrong side of history imo. Marxism built itself on materialism, it's about facing actual problems and giving reasonable solution, not advocating for tolerance, values and all that shit outside of any kind of infrastructures. I don't understand how, in this day and age, people can still argue that it's better to change europe from inside and all that : politics have been saying that for more than thirty years ... Just like this Corbyn interview, his reasonning is basically to find a solution to help poor people in their countries... like it's reasonnable to believe you will be able to help another country, when you're incapable to actually help your own.
lol at that graph, i mean, it looks a satire graph there really.
On June 19 2016 23:44 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The low education low skill worker fears immigration because he is the one most affected by it..More competition for work, lower wages.These are Labours core. Both Labour and the Conservatives will have an identity crisis whatever happens with the poll.
I don't even know how to explain that in words, you need to live and see for yourself here i guess because the low education low skill workers do not want those low skilled jobs and they don't want to get higher education for better jobs either. And you can imagine the work attitude of those people. It comes to the point that some employers (english) prefer to hire foreigners because they work harder in that kind of labour works (obviously this is region dependent, some places the regulars will leave the establishment if they see for example a chinese dude pouring the drinks for them).
And then like everyone said already there is not much of development (since like 20-30 years ago). But there are still labour works need to be done - and the foreigners are willing to do that, and then 'they come here to take our jobs' happens. And that attitude is exactly how most parts of england went for Conservatives, and then labour is doing a shitty job of actually providing any solution to anything; and both parties never want to admit 'we have huge issues we need to start to tackle them from within'.
The more i talk about it, the more i feel like, ya, might as well get out of EU, when the country turns to worse and worse, maybe then people will start to think to improve this country (probably will still blame on something else then i bet).
On June 19 2016 23:44 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The low education low skill worker fears immigration because he is the one most affected by it..More competition for work, lower wages.These are Labours core. Both Labour and the Conservatives will have an identity crisis whatever happens with the poll.
I don't even know how to explain that in words, you need to live and see for yourself here i guess because the low education low skill workers do not want those low skilled jobs and they don't want to get higher education for better jobs either. And you can imagine the work attitude of those people. It comes to the point that some employers (english) prefer to hire foreigners because they work harder in that kind of labour works (obviously this is region dependent, some places the regulars will leave the establishment if they see for example a chinese dude pouring the drinks for them).
And then like everyone said already there is not much of development (since like 20-30 years ago). But there are still labour works need to be done - and the foreigners are willing to do that, and then 'they come here to take our jobs' happens. And that attitude is exactly how most parts of england went for Conservatives, and then labour is doing a shitty job of actually providing any solution to anything; and both parties never want to admit 'we have huge issues we need to start to tackle them from within'.
The more i talk about it, the more i feel like, ya, might as well get out of EU, when the country turns to worse and worse, maybe then people will start to think to improve this country (probably will still blame on something else then i bet).
That is exactly the point. British workers are not willing to work for slave wages at ridiculous hours in terrible conditions. Other workers from poorer countries are, so employers have absolutely no incentive to follow regulations or to improve conditions for their workers.
The solution is NOT for British people to accept worse conditions. We do not want MORE inequality.
On June 18 2016 06:56 Shield wrote: This video reminds me of that one: You may say it affects Western Europe in general, including the UK. What's your view on it?
It's funny because it's direct quotes from this woman:
I believe that some people genuinely want to follow this through to its conclusion but I don't believe there's some mass conspiracy or that it will actually happen. Having said that, if the current demographic and immigration trends continue then Europe could end up as an extension of the middle east faster than you might imagine, with all that that would entail, I'm not massively confident in their willingness to assimilate if they're here in larger and larger numbers.
London, not Brussels, is the capitalist heart of Europe. It's ridiculous that people in Britain would blame Poles and Romanians for taking their jobs, when their country and especially the pampered financial industry in London is more than rich enough to give everyone a job, and more importantly, to make education more affordable to let everyone in on the wealth. Yet people in power are more busy protecting British tax havens.
The polish workers here in Germany are definitely a boon for the German economy. They work hard, often have skills in professions that are in demand and are easily integrated. I doubt it's that different in the UK.
EPT![[image loading]](https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-voices/media/brexit-shorthand---charts-1_1.png)
