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You can not pay the EU membership fees, and EU imposed taxes (VAT taxes), and support your own agriculture rather than the failing EU agriculture.
You can avoid joining in the failing EU economy with low growth and high youth employment.
You'll still have trade with the EU, but at your own therms.
Yes the market will have a downturn, but the remain side is lying to you when they are calling it a disaster.
The only way UK is going to trade with EU is if they get an agreement similar to Norway, which
1) Is highly unlikely. The deal is almost certainly going to be pretty terrible for the UK as the EU will want to emphasize that leaving is not beneficial and after all the UK needs access to the EU-market more than the other way around. 2) Means they have to live up to EU-regulations with zero influence over the policies implemented.
EDIT:
On June 17 2016 00:37 Maenander wrote: A rise of hooliganism, assassination attempts, right-wing terrorism. This is what all the fear-mongering in Europe has brought us to. It seems like rational discourse is a thing of the past.
Let's not pretend that left-wingers are innocent in this.
The UK is Germany's biggest export market, it's definitely in their interest to come to an agreement, getting a Norway style deal is pretty much the worst case scenario and it's basically the same as what we have now.
Edit: ok it's not the worst case scenario but it's the most likely worst case scenario
It's not basically the same as what you have now. It's the same regulations as you have now without any of the influence you currently hold. It's a pretty damn bad scenario, and it is much more likely you get a worse deal as EU is largely tired of the Swiss/Norwegian deals.
Difference is that those regulations would now only apply to businesses dealing directly with EU countries instead of to all businesses, and it's not like we have much influence over said regulations at the moment anyway
If the UK decides to create its own regulations akin to the EU directives then it's basically imposing an added cost of compliance for UK businesses, making it costlier to export. It'll also be a cost on EU businesses exporting to the UK, and that will surely be reflected on higher prices. Not to mention the cost of drawing up your own regulation. For that reason it'll make the most economic sense for the UK to continue to follow the EU directives.
People need to talk more about regulations rather than the rubbish flying around (i mean on the media here). Since i am involved in the regulatory field, i don't even want to start to think about how much it will cost if we left EU.
The simplest example i just told my housemate is that, imagine X product that you use daily that we imported from certain EU country, and regulation says ok you cant raise the price of X product for more than 0.001-0.005% per year. If we left EU that regulation will not apply to us and then troubles happen, prices raise price drop, competitions come and go, small medium companies will get crushed so hard (they will not be able to see that coming at all), and ultimately common folks (like me) will get affected big time. And the rich? they would have prepared better and even if they had 0 backup plan, everything will be fine for them anyway - at worst, one less holiday beach house this year. And whats the worst thing, we have literally 0 export that any other countries want.
In the past decade you hear people blame everything on immigrants. We don't want to work at McDonald's, we blame foreigners who are willing to take those jobs as 'they come here to take our jobs' (and usually comes with 'and our women', and i won't go into that). so if we actually leave EU (it won't), i would like to see how would people react when £ crash like mad, and maybe then they will stfu about blaming foreigners etc. I am saying this because this is a country where when people see a black man drives a Mercedes they will bat an eye on, up north will be fine with this, but try south england (bar london) you see this so evidently. British need to see that the problems lie deep down in the system but stop blaming foreigners/EU, changes are needed to improve alot of issues in this country - not saying that EU has no issues or influence to this mess, EU will definitely need some changes (to work better with UK and every other countries) after the referendum.
So the bottomline is, i never care about politics, as a common folk who works in the field where money comes from regulations themselves, no changes will affect my job/income anyway - except war and this goddamn UK leaving EU change. I mean, if you are poor/average, you have no reason to vote leave, because we will not suddenly get a pay raise 'oh because we left EU so we have more money to pay you :D), and if changes will hit us hard (and it will) and no matter what you say about 'oh it is just a temporary pain' i will not want to see all the goddamn prices raise in the next few years; if you are rich (i mean truly rich, like at least half a mil income per annual), i just dont see how/why would you want to vote no, same thing you will need to spend more here and there but that probably doesn't come out from your own pocket, and that money will probably be equal to hiring someone for 1 year, 1 job less, vote leave or stay literally mean 'meh' to the rich.
There are many thousands of reasons to leave.
You should not look to your own job as justification, either way. It's not a vote about your job. It's a vote about the EU; about the corrupt system that is eroding democracy in Europe.
EU constitution: French people vote NO. Dutch people vote NO. What does the EU do? It renames it to the Lisbon Treaty and doesn't give them another vote. The Irish vote NO to the Lisbon Treaty. So the EU makes them take the vote again, because the reality is that the EU will not let one nation stand in its way. Of course, if referendums had been held in other counties - especially the UK - they would have had to admit that it was not just Ireland who didn't want the Lisbon Treaty, but many other nations.
Everything the EU does relies on the people having no say.
In the words of Juncker, the head of the EU commission: there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.
Let's take a look at what else this pillar of western democracy has said:
--When it becomes serious, you have to lie.
--If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’
--We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.
--Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?
--In the very long run, we will need a European army. Because we have to be credible when it comes to foreign policy
--A common European army would convey a clear message to Russia that we are serious about defending our European values.
This is what you're voting for. Not your job. Not some notion of European fraternity. You're voting for a collection of unelected crackpots to continue playing at being big powerful politicians at the expense of the European peoples.
The only reason Great Britain wants out is because they have finally realised that their biggest historical project, preventing France and Germany from becoming the most powerful bloc on the continent, has failed. Despite having lost two world wars, Germany is now the most powerful European country. When Germany and France put both their shoulders under something, it usually gets through the EU parliament without much trouble. In the eastern bloc Poland and Hungary are also increasingly spreading their influence. Despite going through recessions, neither Portugal, Spain or Greece have any intention of leaving the EU.
Another thing that the UK has trouble accepting is that in a European Parliament consisting of democratically elected (!) MPs from over two dozens of different European nations they can no longer easily and unilaterally push through their own interests at the cost of everyone else's. This may of course lead to the illusion that leaving the EU will enable it to wield its former influence again, but the truth is that the UK is no longer an empire or world power, but an island nation that is increasingly divided from within: Scotland threatens do have another referendum on independence if the Leave camp wins, low-skilled workers increasingly experience difficulties in finding stable, secure jobs which heavily affects former industrial cities such as Manchester while people working in London's financial sector rake in millions.
So for now the UK can still blame the EU for all its woes (even though the harm is largely self-inflicted). I'm still curious who will be the scapegoat when it turns out that leaving the EU did not solve any of the problems at all (because it won't).
As for that youtube video: leaving the EU will do nought for low-skilled workers because low-skilled labour in the West is just too expensive compared to East Asia (or Africa in about a decade or so). Newsflash: there is a reason why every economy in West Europe has slowly been evolving towards service economies instead of 1960s style manufacturing economies. I would also like to point out that the only reason that the EU didn't impose tariffs on Chinese steel was because of the UK government being against it. As that nice lady towards the end of the video pointed out: the UK is just about the only country with zero hour contracts. Blame your own politicians for the state your country is in, and stop voting for demagogues such as Farage or Cameron.
I don't think anyone is labouring under the delusion that leaving the EU will magically solve all our problems, it will however give us the means to try and address the problems instead of just saying "oh well everything's fucked so let's just keep things the way they are"
Also, the EU parliament may be democratically elected but it has very little power, it's essentially there just to rubber stamp the commission's policies.
Edit: Wow, Cameron getting savaged on Question Time right now
You can not pay the EU membership fees, and EU imposed taxes (VAT taxes), and support your own agriculture rather than the failing EU agriculture.
You can avoid joining in the failing EU economy with low growth and high youth employment.
You'll still have trade with the EU, but at your own therms.
Yes the market will have a downturn, but the remain side is lying to you when they are calling it a disaster.
The only way UK is going to trade with EU is if they get an agreement similar to Norway, which
1) Is highly unlikely. The deal is almost certainly going to be pretty terrible for the UK as the EU will want to emphasize that leaving is not beneficial and after all the UK needs access to the EU-market more than the other way around. 2) Means they have to live up to EU-regulations with zero influence over the policies implemented.
EDIT:
On June 17 2016 00:37 Maenander wrote: A rise of hooliganism, assassination attempts, right-wing terrorism. This is what all the fear-mongering in Europe has brought us to. It seems like rational discourse is a thing of the past.
Let's not pretend that left-wingers are innocent in this.
The UK is Germany's biggest export market, it's definitely in their interest to come to an agreement, getting a Norway style deal is pretty much the worst case scenario and it's basically the same as what we have now.
Edit: ok it's not the worst case scenario but it's the most likely worst case scenario
It's not basically the same as what you have now. It's the same regulations as you have now without any of the influence you currently hold. It's a pretty damn bad scenario, and it is much more likely you get a worse deal as EU is largely tired of the Swiss/Norwegian deals.
Difference is that those regulations would now only apply to businesses dealing directly with EU countries instead of to all businesses, and it's not like we have much influence over said regulations at the moment anyway
If the UK decides to create its own regulations akin to the EU directives then it's basically imposing an added cost of compliance for UK businesses, making it costlier to export. It'll also be a cost on EU businesses exporting to the UK, and that will surely be reflected on higher prices. Not to mention the cost of drawing up your own regulation. For that reason it'll make the most economic sense for the UK to continue to follow the EU directives.
People need to talk more about regulations rather than the rubbish flying around (i mean on the media here). Since i am involved in the regulatory field, i don't even want to start to think about how much it will cost if we left EU.
The simplest example i just told my housemate is that, imagine X product that you use daily that we imported from certain EU country, and regulation says ok you cant raise the price of X product for more than 0.001-0.005% per year. If we left EU that regulation will not apply to us and then troubles happen, prices raise price drop, competitions come and go, small medium companies will get crushed so hard (they will not be able to see that coming at all), and ultimately common folks (like me) will get affected big time. And the rich? they would have prepared better and even if they had 0 backup plan, everything will be fine for them anyway - at worst, one less holiday beach house this year. And whats the worst thing, we have literally 0 export that any other countries want.
In the past decade you hear people blame everything on immigrants. We don't want to work at McDonald's, we blame foreigners who are willing to take those jobs as 'they come here to take our jobs' (and usually comes with 'and our women', and i won't go into that). so if we actually leave EU (it won't), i would like to see how would people react when £ crash like mad, and maybe then they will stfu about blaming foreigners etc. I am saying this because this is a country where when people see a black man drives a Mercedes they will bat an eye on, up north will be fine with this, but try south england (bar london) you see this so evidently. British need to see that the problems lie deep down in the system but stop blaming foreigners/EU, changes are needed to improve alot of issues in this country - not saying that EU has no issues or influence to this mess, EU will definitely need some changes (to work better with UK and every other countries) after the referendum.
So the bottomline is, i never care about politics, as a common folk who works in the field where money comes from regulations themselves, no changes will affect my job/income anyway - except war and this goddamn UK leaving EU change. I mean, if you are poor/average, you have no reason to vote leave, because we will not suddenly get a pay raise 'oh because we left EU so we have more money to pay you :D), and if changes will hit us hard (and it will) and no matter what you say about 'oh it is just a temporary pain' i will not want to see all the goddamn prices raise in the next few years; if you are rich (i mean truly rich, like at least half a mil income per annual), i just dont see how/why would you want to vote no, same thing you will need to spend more here and there but that probably doesn't come out from your own pocket, and that money will probably be equal to hiring someone for 1 year, 1 job less, vote leave or stay literally mean 'meh' to the rich.
There are many thousands of reasons to leave.
You should not look to your own job as justification, either way. It's not a vote about your job. It's a vote about the EU; about the corrupt system that is eroding democracy in Europe.
EU constitution: French people vote NO. Dutch people vote NO. What does the EU do? It renames it to the Lisbon Treaty and doesn't give them another vote. The Irish vote NO to the Lisbon Treaty. So the EU makes them take the vote again, because the reality is that the EU will not let one nation stand in its way. Of course, if referendums had been held in other counties - especially the UK - they would have had to admit that it was not just Ireland who didn't want the Lisbon Treaty, but many other nations.
Everything the EU does relies on the people having no say.
In the words of Juncker, the head of the EU commission: there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.
Let's take a look at what else this pillar of western democracy has said:
--When it becomes serious, you have to lie.
--If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’
--We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.
--Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?
--In the very long run, we will need a European army. Because we have to be credible when it comes to foreign policy
--A common European army would convey a clear message to Russia that we are serious about defending our European values.
This is what you're voting for. Not your job. Not some notion of European fraternity. You're voting for a collection of unelected crackpots to continue playing at being big powerful politicians at the expense of the European peoples.
The only reason Great Britain wants out is because they have finally realised that their biggest historical project, preventing France and Germany from becoming the most powerful bloc on the continent, has failed. Despite having lost two world wars, Germany is now the most powerful European country. When Germany and France put both their shoulders under something, it usually gets through the EU parliament without much trouble. In the eastern bloc Poland and Hungary are also increasingly spreading their influence. Despite going through recessions, neither Portugal, Spain or Greece have any intention of leaving the EU.
Another thing that the UK has trouble accepting is that in a European Parliament consisting of democratically elected (!) MPs from over two dozens of different European nations they can no longer easily and unilaterally push through their own interests at the cost of everyone else's. This may of course lead to the illusion that leaving the EU will enable it to wield its former influence again, but the truth is that the UK is no longer an empire or world power, but an island nation that is increasingly divided from within: Scotland threatens do have another referendum on independence if the Leave camp wins, low-skilled workers increasingly experience difficulties in finding stable, secure jobs which heavily affects former industrial cities such as Manchester while people working in London's financial sector rake in millions.
So for now the UK can still blame the EU for all its woes (even though the harm is largely self-inflicted). I'm still curious who will be the scapegoat when it turns out that leaving the EU did not solve any of the problems at all (because it won't).
As for that youtube video: leaving the EU will do nought for low-skilled workers because low-skilled labour in the West is just too expensive compared to East Asia (or Africa in about a decade or so). Newsflash: there is a reason why every economy in West Europe has slowly been evolving towards service economies instead of 1960s style manufacturing economies. I would also like to point out that the only reason that the EU didn't impose tariffs on Chinese steel was because of the UK government being against it. As that nice lady towards the end of the video pointed out: the UK is just about the only country with zero hour contracts. Blame your own politicians for the state your country is in, and stop voting for demagogues such as Farage or Cameron.
Everything you say is illustrative of just how broken the pro-EU thought process is. You are celebrating the fact that your entire project benefits one country: Germany. You're celebrating the fact that the recoveries of Greece and Spain are stitched together by the health of the German economy. What an achievement, to have created a currency that benefits one nation and leaves the rest of the continent utterly reliant on it! You're celebrating the fact that two countries have essentially all the power. What could possibly go wrong? No country has any plan of leaving the EU despite their economic woes - oh, have you asked them? Have you asked the people of Greece, with over 70% unfavourable opinion of the EU, and 90% unfavourable opnion of EU economics, if they want to leave?
No, you haven't. Because democracy would undermine your entire project, wouldn't it?
As for the guy above who thought it was self evident that the EU would need an army - please reassess your entire outlook on the world. You do not put armed forces under the control of unelected idealogues who have demonstrated that they have no respect for democracy/the people.
On June 19 2016 17:24 KelsierSC wrote: From my perspective this is a vote of character.
The EU isn't perfect and there are aspects of it I don't like. But I share values with a lot of European people, in fact despite speaking the same language, I feel I have more in common with German & French people than I do with American or Australians. As a continent we face similar challenges and I feel that showing solidarity in these times is more important than anything else.
The other thing for me is the people associated with the campaigns, For me personally I can't stand the idea of being associated with people like Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage , Gove or thousands of racist people in this country who's only reason for getting out of the EU is a dislike of foreign people. That isn't to say everyone voting leave is like that but overall it is a campaign that I don't want to be a part of.
Your first point doesn't add up because the peoples of Europe are roughly split on the EU. About half of them have unfavourable opinions of the EU, even in Germany. More than half, in France.
Your second point just shows complacency. Vote on issues, not personalities.
On June 20 2016 03:03 Maenander wrote: London, not Brussels, is the capitalist heart of Europe. It's ridiculous that people in Britain would blame Poles and Romanians for taking their jobs, when their country and especially the pampered financial industry in London is more than rich enough to give everyone a job, and more importantly, to make education more affordable to let everyone in on the wealth. Yet people in power are more busy protecting British tax havens.
The polish workers here in Germany are definitely a boon for the German economy. They work hard, often have skills in professions that are in demand and are easily integrated. I doubt it's that different in the UK.
Understand this: NOBODY blames Poles or Romanians. EVERYBODY blames the EU for enforcing free movement. Our membership of the single market is beneficial to everybody in Europe. Why punish the entire continent because the UK does not want to be a part of your federalist ideology?
The solution is incredibly simple, of course. You let the UK into the single market without requiring free movement of people. But the EU won't allow this. Why not? Because if it does, the other wealthy countries in Europe will demand the same.
None of these countries truly want a federal Europe. They endure the EU because of the threat that they will be sanctioned if they don't. The two richest countries in Europe - that is to say, the two countries who can afford to be in the EU's bad books - don't want to join the EU. I wonder why?
Understand this: There are plenty of people who don't blame the presence of non english people for everything. Not EVERYBODY blames the EU at all. Some of us don't buy the lies the tories hand out every day. I blame the tories for the pressure the NHS is under. They have created that problem with their misguided and failed attempt to bring the economy under control using austerity (which has categorically failed). I blame the tories for our housing crisis because they haven't even attempted to do anything about it. I blame the tories for the massive drop in quality of life for the poor, because they have deliberately engineered.it.
To blame the EU for these things is a bit convenient isn't it? Oh its the EUs fault for letting all foreign people come here and ruin everything. Give me a break.
On June 20 2016 05:30 Jockmcplop wrote: Understand this: There are plenty of people who don't blame the presence of non english people for everything. Not EVERYBODY blames the EU at all. Some of us don't buy the lies the tories hand out every day. I blame the tories for the pressure the NHS is under. They have created that problem with their misguided and failed attempt to bring the economy under control using austerity (which has categorically failed). I blame the tories for our housing crisis because they haven't even attempted to do anything about it. I blame the tories for the massive drop in quality of life for the poor, because they have deliberately engineered.it.
To blame the EU for these things is a bit convenient isn't it? Oh its the EUs fault for letting all foreign people come here and ruin everything. Give me a break.
That's a nice way to debate because it saves you having to answer any of my points. Go for it, have a try.
Anyway if we do leave it'll be hilarious to see who gets the blame next time. Africa maybe? Australia? Our problems have definitely got nothing to do with our government though. Definitely.
On June 20 2016 05:36 Jockmcplop wrote: That's a nice way to debate because it saves you having to answer any of my points. Go for it, have a try.
Anyway if we do leave it'll be hilarious to see who gets the blame next time. Africa maybe? Australia? Our problems have definitely got nothing to do with our government though. Definitely.
I'm sorry but it takes the most ideologically blinded imbecile to think that the EU is not responsible for uncontrolled immigration when it is the EU who enforce uncontrolled immigration.
On June 20 2016 03:03 Maenander wrote: London, not Brussels, is the capitalist heart of Europe. It's ridiculous that people in Britain would blame Poles and Romanians for taking their jobs, when their country and especially the pampered financial industry in London is more than rich enough to give everyone a job, and more importantly, to make education more affordable to let everyone in on the wealth. Yet people in power are more busy protecting British tax havens.
The polish workers here in Germany are definitely a boon for the German economy. They work hard, often have skills in professions that are in demand and are easily integrated. I doubt it's that different in the UK.
Understand this: NOBODY blames Poles or Romanians. EVERYBODY blames the EU for enforcing free movement. Our membership of the single market is beneficial to everybody in Europe. Why punish the entire continent because the UK does not want to be a part of your federalist ideology?
The solution is incredibly simple, of course. You let the UK into the single market without requiring free movement of people. But the EU won't allow this. Why not? Because if it does, the other wealthy countries in Europe will demand the same.
None of these countries truly want a federal Europe. They endure the EU because of the threat that they will be sanctioned if they don't. The two richest countries in Europe - that is to say, the two countries who can afford to be in the EU's bad books - don't want to join the EU. I wonder why?
Free movement of labour is as important as free movement of goods to a single market. You cannot have one without the other.
On June 20 2016 03:03 Maenander wrote: London, not Brussels, is the capitalist heart of Europe. It's ridiculous that people in Britain would blame Poles and Romanians for taking their jobs, when their country and especially the pampered financial industry in London is more than rich enough to give everyone a job, and more importantly, to make education more affordable to let everyone in on the wealth. Yet people in power are more busy protecting British tax havens.
The polish workers here in Germany are definitely a boon for the German economy. They work hard, often have skills in professions that are in demand and are easily integrated. I doubt it's that different in the UK.
Understand this: NOBODY blames Poles or Romanians. EVERYBODY blames the EU for enforcing free movement. Our membership of the single market is beneficial to everybody in Europe. Why punish the entire continent because the UK does not want to be a part of your federalist ideology?
The solution is incredibly simple, of course. You let the UK into the single market without requiring free movement of people. But the EU won't allow this. Why not? Because if it does, the other wealthy countries in Europe will demand the same.
None of these countries truly want a federal Europe. They endure the EU because of the threat that they will be sanctioned if they don't. The two richest countries in Europe - that is to say, the two countries who can afford to be in the EU's bad books - don't want to join the EU. I wonder why?
Free movement of labour is as important as free movement of goods to a single market. You cannot have one without the other.
That's highly theorical and, quite frankly, empirically false. Do you think people move as much as goods, services and capital ? People don't move much, even within one country - they have "roots" that prevent them to do so, not everything is about the state. Not to mention that there's capital mobility in the world, and no freedom of movement, for the most part ... What a single market needs, on the other hand, is a unified system for fiscal redistribution, and this will never happen due to the distinctions between europeans. That's why it is better to get out : at this point, the europe is a problem, and making the necessary step forward seems impossible because, quite frankly, the people don't want it, in most countries (germany included).
By the way, a big part of the migrants are not part of the EU. The reason why economists argue that freedom of movement is important is because it permits the labor factor to equilibrate itself, with region losing jobs also losing labor factor. This reasonning does not stand : in reality, most EU citizens refuse to move as much as they should because, as I said, they are rooted to their countries (it has been accepted by the european union, that desperatly tries to increase labor mobility in the european union) and the few that move always move from the poorest countries (and not the ones with the most unemployment) to the richest (and not the one with the most jobs).
You can not pay the EU membership fees, and EU imposed taxes (VAT taxes), and support your own agriculture rather than the failing EU agriculture.
You can avoid joining in the failing EU economy with low growth and high youth employment.
You'll still have trade with the EU, but at your own therms.
Yes the market will have a downturn, but the remain side is lying to you when they are calling it a disaster.
The only way UK is going to trade with EU is if they get an agreement similar to Norway, which
1) Is highly unlikely. The deal is almost certainly going to be pretty terrible for the UK as the EU will want to emphasize that leaving is not beneficial and after all the UK needs access to the EU-market more than the other way around. 2) Means they have to live up to EU-regulations with zero influence over the policies implemented.
EDIT:
On June 17 2016 00:37 Maenander wrote: A rise of hooliganism, assassination attempts, right-wing terrorism. This is what all the fear-mongering in Europe has brought us to. It seems like rational discourse is a thing of the past.
Let's not pretend that left-wingers are innocent in this.
The UK is Germany's biggest export market, it's definitely in their interest to come to an agreement, getting a Norway style deal is pretty much the worst case scenario and it's basically the same as what we have now.
Edit: ok it's not the worst case scenario but it's the most likely worst case scenario
It's not basically the same as what you have now. It's the same regulations as you have now without any of the influence you currently hold. It's a pretty damn bad scenario, and it is much more likely you get a worse deal as EU is largely tired of the Swiss/Norwegian deals.
Difference is that those regulations would now only apply to businesses dealing directly with EU countries instead of to all businesses, and it's not like we have much influence over said regulations at the moment anyway
If the UK decides to create its own regulations akin to the EU directives then it's basically imposing an added cost of compliance for UK businesses, making it costlier to export. It'll also be a cost on EU businesses exporting to the UK, and that will surely be reflected on higher prices. Not to mention the cost of drawing up your own regulation. For that reason it'll make the most economic sense for the UK to continue to follow the EU directives.
People need to talk more about regulations rather than the rubbish flying around (i mean on the media here). Since i am involved in the regulatory field, i don't even want to start to think about how much it will cost if we left EU.
The simplest example i just told my housemate is that, imagine X product that you use daily that we imported from certain EU country, and regulation says ok you cant raise the price of X product for more than 0.001-0.005% per year. If we left EU that regulation will not apply to us and then troubles happen, prices raise price drop, competitions come and go, small medium companies will get crushed so hard (they will not be able to see that coming at all), and ultimately common folks (like me) will get affected big time. And the rich? they would have prepared better and even if they had 0 backup plan, everything will be fine for them anyway - at worst, one less holiday beach house this year. And whats the worst thing, we have literally 0 export that any other countries want.
In the past decade you hear people blame everything on immigrants. We don't want to work at McDonald's, we blame foreigners who are willing to take those jobs as 'they come here to take our jobs' (and usually comes with 'and our women', and i won't go into that). so if we actually leave EU (it won't), i would like to see how would people react when £ crash like mad, and maybe then they will stfu about blaming foreigners etc. I am saying this because this is a country where when people see a black man drives a Mercedes they will bat an eye on, up north will be fine with this, but try south england (bar london) you see this so evidently. British need to see that the problems lie deep down in the system but stop blaming foreigners/EU, changes are needed to improve alot of issues in this country - not saying that EU has no issues or influence to this mess, EU will definitely need some changes (to work better with UK and every other countries) after the referendum.
So the bottomline is, i never care about politics, as a common folk who works in the field where money comes from regulations themselves, no changes will affect my job/income anyway - except war and this goddamn UK leaving EU change. I mean, if you are poor/average, you have no reason to vote leave, because we will not suddenly get a pay raise 'oh because we left EU so we have more money to pay you :D), and if changes will hit us hard (and it will) and no matter what you say about 'oh it is just a temporary pain' i will not want to see all the goddamn prices raise in the next few years; if you are rich (i mean truly rich, like at least half a mil income per annual), i just dont see how/why would you want to vote no, same thing you will need to spend more here and there but that probably doesn't come out from your own pocket, and that money will probably be equal to hiring someone for 1 year, 1 job less, vote leave or stay literally mean 'meh' to the rich.
There are many thousands of reasons to leave.
You should not look to your own job as justification, either way. It's not a vote about your job. It's a vote about the EU; about the corrupt system that is eroding democracy in Europe.
EU constitution: French people vote NO. Dutch people vote NO. What does the EU do? It renames it to the Lisbon Treaty and doesn't give them another vote. The Irish vote NO to the Lisbon Treaty. So the EU makes them take the vote again, because the reality is that the EU will not let one nation stand in its way. Of course, if referendums had been held in other counties - especially the UK - they would have had to admit that it was not just Ireland who didn't want the Lisbon Treaty, but many other nations.
Everything the EU does relies on the people having no say.
In the words of Juncker, the head of the EU commission: there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.
Let's take a look at what else this pillar of western democracy has said:
--When it becomes serious, you have to lie.
--If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’
--We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.
--Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?
--In the very long run, we will need a European army. Because we have to be credible when it comes to foreign policy
--A common European army would convey a clear message to Russia that we are serious about defending our European values.
This is what you're voting for. Not your job. Not some notion of European fraternity. You're voting for a collection of unelected crackpots to continue playing at being big powerful politicians at the expense of the European peoples.
The only reason Great Britain wants out is because they have finally realised that their biggest historical project, preventing France and Germany from becoming the most powerful bloc on the continent, has failed. Despite having lost two world wars, Germany is now the most powerful European country.
Germany has been the most powerful country in Europe for as long as there has been a Germany and has, at several points, been the most powerful country in the world. The idea that Britain has been trying to stop that is absurd, it's a simple reality, it cannot be stopped. What Britain has been committed to historically is stopping any one nation from marching across Europe destroying all in their path because we know that we'd be next on the list and that the Royal Navy can only buy us so much time before we too would fall. That's why at the end of WW1 we didn't dismember Germany and make France the biggest European state again which would only transfer the problem rather than resolve it but instead attempted to build a lasting European peace with the League of Nations, mutual disarmament and diplomatic bonds. The European project is the culmination of the goals of British foreign policy, not a failure of them. We just never really wanted to be involved. As long as it's peaceful, non expansionist and willing to trade with us, well, that's a win.
Suggesting that the very existence of Germany is a failure of British foreign policy is absurd, Germany is a reality and has been for 150 years, you might as well argue that the existence of the English Channel is a failure of Napoleon's geographic policy. The goal was never for there to not be a Germany which would have required some very creative cartography and a lot of commitment to denying reality, it was for there to be a Germany which wasn't constantly trying to invade its neighbours.
You can not pay the EU membership fees, and EU imposed taxes (VAT taxes), and support your own agriculture rather than the failing EU agriculture.
You can avoid joining in the failing EU economy with low growth and high youth employment.
You'll still have trade with the EU, but at your own therms.
Yes the market will have a downturn, but the remain side is lying to you when they are calling it a disaster.
The only way UK is going to trade with EU is if they get an agreement similar to Norway, which
1) Is highly unlikely. The deal is almost certainly going to be pretty terrible for the UK as the EU will want to emphasize that leaving is not beneficial and after all the UK needs access to the EU-market more than the other way around. 2) Means they have to live up to EU-regulations with zero influence over the policies implemented.
EDIT:
On June 17 2016 00:37 Maenander wrote: A rise of hooliganism, assassination attempts, right-wing terrorism. This is what all the fear-mongering in Europe has brought us to. It seems like rational discourse is a thing of the past.
Let's not pretend that left-wingers are innocent in this.
The UK is Germany's biggest export market, it's definitely in their interest to come to an agreement, getting a Norway style deal is pretty much the worst case scenario and it's basically the same as what we have now.
Edit: ok it's not the worst case scenario but it's the most likely worst case scenario
It's not basically the same as what you have now. It's the same regulations as you have now without any of the influence you currently hold. It's a pretty damn bad scenario, and it is much more likely you get a worse deal as EU is largely tired of the Swiss/Norwegian deals.
Difference is that those regulations would now only apply to businesses dealing directly with EU countries instead of to all businesses, and it's not like we have much influence over said regulations at the moment anyway
If the UK decides to create its own regulations akin to the EU directives then it's basically imposing an added cost of compliance for UK businesses, making it costlier to export. It'll also be a cost on EU businesses exporting to the UK, and that will surely be reflected on higher prices. Not to mention the cost of drawing up your own regulation. For that reason it'll make the most economic sense for the UK to continue to follow the EU directives.
People need to talk more about regulations rather than the rubbish flying around (i mean on the media here). Since i am involved in the regulatory field, i don't even want to start to think about how much it will cost if we left EU.
The simplest example i just told my housemate is that, imagine X product that you use daily that we imported from certain EU country, and regulation says ok you cant raise the price of X product for more than 0.001-0.005% per year. If we left EU that regulation will not apply to us and then troubles happen, prices raise price drop, competitions come and go, small medium companies will get crushed so hard (they will not be able to see that coming at all), and ultimately common folks (like me) will get affected big time. And the rich? they would have prepared better and even if they had 0 backup plan, everything will be fine for them anyway - at worst, one less holiday beach house this year. And whats the worst thing, we have literally 0 export that any other countries want.
In the past decade you hear people blame everything on immigrants. We don't want to work at McDonald's, we blame foreigners who are willing to take those jobs as 'they come here to take our jobs' (and usually comes with 'and our women', and i won't go into that). so if we actually leave EU (it won't), i would like to see how would people react when £ crash like mad, and maybe then they will stfu about blaming foreigners etc. I am saying this because this is a country where when people see a black man drives a Mercedes they will bat an eye on, up north will be fine with this, but try south england (bar london) you see this so evidently. British need to see that the problems lie deep down in the system but stop blaming foreigners/EU, changes are needed to improve alot of issues in this country - not saying that EU has no issues or influence to this mess, EU will definitely need some changes (to work better with UK and every other countries) after the referendum.
So the bottomline is, i never care about politics, as a common folk who works in the field where money comes from regulations themselves, no changes will affect my job/income anyway - except war and this goddamn UK leaving EU change. I mean, if you are poor/average, you have no reason to vote leave, because we will not suddenly get a pay raise 'oh because we left EU so we have more money to pay you :D), and if changes will hit us hard (and it will) and no matter what you say about 'oh it is just a temporary pain' i will not want to see all the goddamn prices raise in the next few years; if you are rich (i mean truly rich, like at least half a mil income per annual), i just dont see how/why would you want to vote no, same thing you will need to spend more here and there but that probably doesn't come out from your own pocket, and that money will probably be equal to hiring someone for 1 year, 1 job less, vote leave or stay literally mean 'meh' to the rich.
There are many thousands of reasons to leave.
You should not look to your own job as justification, either way. It's not a vote about your job. It's a vote about the EU; about the corrupt system that is eroding democracy in Europe.
EU constitution: French people vote NO. Dutch people vote NO. What does the EU do? It renames it to the Lisbon Treaty and doesn't give them another vote. The Irish vote NO to the Lisbon Treaty. So the EU makes them take the vote again, because the reality is that the EU will not let one nation stand in its way. Of course, if referendums had been held in other counties - especially the UK - they would have had to admit that it was not just Ireland who didn't want the Lisbon Treaty, but many other nations.
Everything the EU does relies on the people having no say.
In the words of Juncker, the head of the EU commission: there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.
Let's take a look at what else this pillar of western democracy has said:
--When it becomes serious, you have to lie.
--If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’
--We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.
--Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?
--In the very long run, we will need a European army. Because we have to be credible when it comes to foreign policy
--A common European army would convey a clear message to Russia that we are serious about defending our European values.
This is what you're voting for. Not your job. Not some notion of European fraternity. You're voting for a collection of unelected crackpots to continue playing at being big powerful politicians at the expense of the European peoples.
The only reason Great Britain wants out is because they have finally realised that their biggest historical project, preventing France and Germany from becoming the most powerful bloc on the continent, has failed. Despite having lost two world wars, Germany is now the most powerful European country.
Germany has been the most powerful country in Europe for as long as there has been a Germany and has, at several points, been the most powerful country in the world. The idea that Britain has been trying to stop that is absurd, it's a simple reality, it cannot be stopped. What Britain has been committed to historically is stopping any one nation from marching across Europe destroying all in their path because we know that we'd be next on the list and that the Royal Navy can only buy us so much time before we too would fall. That's why at the end of WW1 we didn't dismember Germany and make France the biggest European state again which would only transfer the problem rather than resolve it but instead attempted to build a lasting European peace with the League of Nations, mutual disarmament and diplomatic bonds. The European project is the culmination of the goals of British foreign policy, not a failure of them. We just never really wanted to be involved. As long as it's peaceful, non expansionist and willing to trade with us, well, that's a win.
Suggesting that the very existence of Germany is a failure of British foreign policy is absurd, Germany is a reality and has been for 150 years, you might as well argue that the existence of the English Channel is a failure of Napoleon's geographic policy. The goal was never for there to not be a Germany which would have required some very creative cartography and a lot of commitment to denying reality, it was for there to be a Germany which wasn't constantly trying to invade its neighbours.
The european union from the french and english perspective is indeed a way to control the power of a unified germany. It has sense, if you consider the two world war : there are clear discussions between Tatcher and Mitterand on that point, the only difference is their approach (Tatcher didn't believe in the european project, Mitterand wanted to).
Wiki is pretty well informed on this :
The pace of events surprised the French, whose Foreign Ministry had concluded in October 1989 that reunification "does not appear realistic at this moment".[26] A representative of French President François Mitterrand reportedly told an aide to Gorbachev, "France by no means wants German reunification, although it realises that in the end it is inevitable."[21] At the Strasbourg summit, Mitterrand and Thatcher discussed the fluidity of Germany's historical borders.[19] On 20 January 1990, Mitterrand told Thatcher that a unified Germany could "make more ground than even Hitler had".[24] He predicted that "bad" Germans would reemerge,[23] who might seek to regain former German territory lost after World War II[22] and would likely dominate Hungary, Poland, and Czechoslovakia, leaving "only Romania and Bulgaria for the rest of us". The two leaders saw no way to prevent reunification, however, as "None of us was going to declare war on Germany".[19] Mitterrand recognized before Thatcher that reunification was inevitable and adjusted his views accordingly; unlike her, he was hopeful that participation in a single currency[22] and other European institutions could control a united Germany. Mitterrand still wanted Thatcher to publicly oppose unification, however, to obtain more concessions from Germany.[23]
It's just regrettable that, while an ideologically sound idea, the EU just backfires because people are still too hung up on their "roots" and nation while everything going on has been globalised since WW II. People just have too much self interest to care for a self improving society. And I'm not talking just talking about the general populace, politicians and other people have this too and their entire shtick is based on hyping up their segregatory speech; not that I'm inherently against this, I'm just sad people don't want to work towards some kind of unified world.
On June 20 2016 05:30 Jockmcplop wrote: Understand this: There are plenty of people who don't blame the presence of non english people for everything. Not EVERYBODY blames the EU at all. Some of us don't buy the lies the tories hand out every day. I blame the tories for the pressure the NHS is under. They have created that problem with their misguided and failed attempt to bring the economy under control using austerity (which has categorically failed). I blame the tories for our housing crisis because they haven't even attempted to do anything about it. I blame the tories for the massive drop in quality of life for the poor, because they have deliberately engineered.it.
To blame the EU for these things is a bit convenient isn't it? Oh its the EUs fault for letting all foreign people come here and ruin everything. Give me a break.
There was a pretty big financial crisis in 2008, 2009 was a very bad year for the British economy, it was clear that the Labour government had overspent and something had to be done. You can argue that the coalition's cuts were too drastic or that it was done in the wrong way and it did unfairly target the vulnerable, but look at what the EU did to Greece, it was even worse, these are the people that will eventually be running what was once the UK if we remain, and you put your faith in them?
As for the housing crisis, British house construction has been terrible for decades, in 2007 Labour tried to aim for building 240,000 a year and only managed 150,000 due to the planning permission process taking forever, and the country will need a lot more new houses than that if immigration continues at these levels. The UK also has the smallest houses in Europe and some of the worst quality, they should be able to do better than that.
On June 20 2016 06:33 Uldridge wrote: It's just regrettable that, while an ideologically sound idea, the EU just backfires because people are still too hung up on their "roots" and nation while everything going on has been globalised since WW II. People just have too much self interest to care for a self improving society. And I'm not talking just talking about the general populace, politicians and other people have this too and their entire shtick is based on hyping up their segregatory speech; not that I'm inherently against this, I'm just sad people don't want to work towards some kind of unified world.
That's a very lackluster vision of mankind. It's way more complex than that : what you call "self improving society" is only improved for some people. The desire for an empire, for the unification of mankind through its institutions and not its culture will always result in huge tensions / war.
On June 20 2016 05:30 Jockmcplop wrote: Understand this: There are plenty of people who don't blame the presence of non english people for everything. Not EVERYBODY blames the EU at all. Some of us don't buy the lies the tories hand out every day. I blame the tories for the pressure the NHS is under. They have created that problem with their misguided and failed attempt to bring the economy under control using austerity (which has categorically failed). I blame the tories for our housing crisis because they haven't even attempted to do anything about it. I blame the tories for the massive drop in quality of life for the poor, because they have deliberately engineered.it.
To blame the EU for these things is a bit convenient isn't it? Oh its the EUs fault for letting all foreign people come here and ruin everything. Give me a break.
There was a pretty big financial crisis in 2008, 2009 was a very bad year for the British economy, it was clear that the Labour government had overspent and something had to be done. You can argue that the coalition's cuts were too drastic or that it was done in the wrong way and it did unfairly target the vulnerable, but look at what the EU did to Greece, it was even worse, these are the people that will eventually be running what was once the UK if we remain, and you put your faith in them?
As for the housing crisis, British house construction has been terrible for decades, in 2007 Labour tried to aim for building 240,000 a year and only managed 150,000 due to the planning permission process taking forever, and the country will need a lot more new houses than that if immigration continues at these levels. The UK also has the smallest houses in Europe and some of the worst quality, they should be able to do better than that.
I'm not sure I've seen a single Leave argument without an insane amount of hyperbole in it that obscures any legitimate point they might be making. Ignoring that, all you've done is list failures of the (national) government to solve or predict (national) problems which many people seem to be scapegoating the EU for.
Sorry, but what is the main reasoning behind the Brexit? Or at least the narrative pushed upon the general population of the UK? The EU fucked us too hard for far too long. We aren't allowed to do our own thing while we have to abide to too much of their rules. And people eat it up. Many people have no idea how the EU actually functions, it's waaaaaaay to administratively secluded for the layman to understand. So people just look at superficial facts fed to them and just resonate with whatever seems correct at the time.
The EU was absolutely founded with a self improving factor in mind, as to stop future conflicts, but it mainly began as an economic venture. Ofcourse it's not not an ideal model, you have nations who are still too self invested to let real progress happen. People criticize the immigration policies, for example, which may have been a huge failure, but what was the alternative? It's futile bickering between nations, like little kids, while mommy EU has to step in and tell people how to behave. It's sad. Ofcourse a nation's government should protect its own people, but when you have something as big happening as the EU, which quite frankly transcends your idea of what a nation is, then you need to understand that your interests are the interests of the EU and vica versa.
I guess there are too many conflicts of interests for the EU to actually work, as we're finding out at this very moment (or have been slowly finding out these last couple of decades).
On June 20 2016 05:30 Jockmcplop wrote: Understand this: There are plenty of people who don't blame the presence of non english people for everything. Not EVERYBODY blames the EU at all. Some of us don't buy the lies the tories hand out every day. I blame the tories for the pressure the NHS is under. They have created that problem with their misguided and failed attempt to bring the economy under control using austerity (which has categorically failed). I blame the tories for our housing crisis because they haven't even attempted to do anything about it. I blame the tories for the massive drop in quality of life for the poor, because they have deliberately engineered.it.
To blame the EU for these things is a bit convenient isn't it? Oh its the EUs fault for letting all foreign people come here and ruin everything. Give me a break.
There was a pretty big financial crisis in 2008, 2009 was a very bad year for the British economy, it was clear that the Labour government had overspent and something had to be done. You can argue that the coalition's cuts were too drastic or that it was done in the wrong way and it did unfairly target the vulnerable, but look at what the EU did to Greece, it was even worse, these are the people that will eventually be running what was once the UK if we remain, and you put your faith in them?
As for the housing crisis, British house construction has been terrible for decades, in 2007 Labour tried to aim for building 240,000 a year and only managed 150,000 due to the planning permission process taking forever, and the country will need a lot more new houses than that if immigration continues at these levels. The UK also has the smallest houses in Europe and some of the worst quality, they should be able to do better than that.
I'm not sure I've seen a single Leave argument without an insane amount of hyperbole in it that obscures any legitimate point they might be making. Ignoring that, all you've done is list failures of the (national) government to solve or predict (national) problems which many people seem to be scapegoating the EU for.
Call it hyperbole if you like but it's literally voting to be ruled by people who are not democratically accountable to anyone. For a practical example, most people in Britain think that we should renationalise the railways, we can't do that as part of the EU though, literally illegal.
It's not scapegoating the EU for everything, it's pointing out that we literally don't have a choice even if we wanted to change anything.
On June 20 2016 06:33 Uldridge wrote: It's just regrettable that, while an ideologically sound idea, the EU just backfires because people are still too hung up on their "roots" and nation while everything going on has been globalised since WW II. People just have too much self interest to care for a self improving society. And I'm not talking just talking about the general populace, politicians and other people have this too and their entire shtick is based on hyping up their segregatory speech; not that I'm inherently against this, I'm just sad people don't want to work towards some kind of unified world.
None of which changes the fact that the euro currency and austerity imposed by the EU on Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain has been a total disaster.
Remind me of the youth unemployment levels in those nations....
EPT
