In order to ensure that this thread meets TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we ask that everyone please adhere to this mod note.
Posts containing only Tweets or articles adds nothing to the discussions. Therefore, when providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments will be actioned upon.
All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting.
'm not sure I've seen a single Leave argument without an insane amount of hyperbole in it that obscures any legitimate point they might be making. Ignoring that, all you've done is list failures of the (national) government to solve or predict (national) problems which many people seem to be scapegoating the EU for.
Free movement of labor is not something you can deal with on a national level. It's like when Oslo asks a city to field housing for 500 immigrants. it takes time, labor and money and investment to plan these things, but it's always too slow which leads to a rush job, over-budget construction work, and they know they can charge extra, and then the city is improvised for years afterwards.
'm not sure I've seen a single Leave argument without an insane amount of hyperbole in it that obscures any legitimate point they might be making. Ignoring that, all you've done is list failures of the (national) government to solve or predict (national) problems which many people seem to be scapegoating the EU for.
Free movement of labor is not something you can deal with on a national level. It's like when Oslo asks a city to field housing for 500 immigrants. it takes time, labor and money and investment to plan these things, but it's always too slow which leads to a rush job, over-budget construction work, and they know they can charge extra, and then the city is improvised for years afterwards.
It's stupid, and everyone looses.
Except the lack of housing being built has been happening since the 1980s, and literally none of the governments since have attempted to build lots of new houses.
The trade deficit with the EU is the biggest single contributor to Britain’s unsustainable current-account position. Current account deficit hit a record high of 7% Q4/2015.
On June 20 2016 17:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Balance of trade.
Current account deficit.
The trade deficit with the EU is the biggest single contributor to Britain’s unsustainable current-account position. Current account deficit hit a record high of 7% Q4/2015.
And how will Brexit help against the deficit? The leave campaign is based on the fact that Britain will stay in the common market and they already have their own currency.
On June 20 2016 17:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Balance of trade.
Current account deficit.
The trade deficit with the EU is the biggest single contributor to Britain’s unsustainable current-account position. Current account deficit hit a record high of 7% Q4/2015.
And how will Brexit help against the deficit? The leave campaign is based on the fact that Britain will stay in the common market and they already have their own currency.
Pretty obvious that a drop in the value of the pound is what is needed to restore some semblance of sanity to the trade and current account deficits.Brexit can provide.You cannot seriously look at those charts and say that is in any way sustainable, and all this while in the EU.
On June 20 2016 19:02 RvB wrote: Britain already has its own currency and monetary policy. So how will Brexit help with this?
Causes a fall in value of pound, making exports cheaper and imports more expensive. Allows it to enter into a trade deal with the commonwealth which is by far a faster growing economic area than the EU. The main point of the graphs though is just to show that the UK economy has not been travelling as well as some here suggest.
New video from Labour leave on the fishing industry.
In the brexiteer scenario that depreciation will be short term only. Long term it is better for the economy so it will increase the worth of the currency. A short term fall has little or no effects on exports. Exporters and jmporters need to adjust. It will only result in a downfall of imprts which is hardly what you want. It'll also be inflationary. I also fail to see how a trade deal with the commonwealth countries is going to significantly impact the balance of trade of Britain whilen nearly half of exports go to the EU.
My point is that you're pointing out a weakness in the British economy and put the blame on the EU while that makes no sense. Your critique would be valid for the Eurozone but not Britain.
What I've noticed, these last couple of years, not only in European politics, but how politics is done in gerenal is that fingerpointing gets you where you want. And I'm absolutely appalled by it. You see a problem and sure there are going to be problems (there are always going to be problems), but instead of fixing those problems you start an entire narrative, with the only set of arguments that the current situation is not one that the people want/need, and that a 180° turn needs to be made. Is that the solution, a 180° turn on everything? But how will that actually change the situation? It's all hypotheticals and I most of the times fail to see the supposed changes of complete change in (inter)national economy/politics.
Someone pointed out the huge unemployment in Greece/Italy/... Ok, sure. Now how is a potential leave from the EU going to fix that unemployment rate?
The people coming up with these things, in my opinion, actually have no clue either what to do about the situation and they're all speculating on how it'll become better, using the naivety of the general population. "Oh it's bad right now, so I guess if we completely change everything about our current situation it'll be better!"
It's the same with the people complaining about the immigration situation and the far right movements rising up. They get to push an entire agenda based of a failed immigration policy, but how would they actually fix/change the immigration policy?
On June 20 2016 22:14 Uldridge wrote: What I've noticed, these last couple of years, not only in European politics, but how politics is done in gerenal is that fingerpointing gets you where you want. And I'm absolutely appalled by it. You see a problem and sure there are going to be problems (there are always going to be problems), but instead of fixing those problems you start an entire narrative, with the only set of arguments that the current situation is not one that the people want/need, and that a 180° turn needs to be made. Is that the solution, a 180° turn on everything? But how will that actually change the situation? It's all hypotheticals and I most of the times fail to see the supposed changes of complete change in (inter)national economy/politics.
Someone pointed out the huge unemployment in Greece/Italy/... Ok, sure. Now how is a potential leave from the EU going to fix that unemployment rate?
The people coming up with these things, in my opinion, actually have no clue either what to do about the situation and they're all speculating on how it'll become better, using the naivety of the general population. "Oh it's bad right now, so I guess if we completely change everything about our current situation it'll be better!"
It's the same with the people complaining about the immigration situation and the far right movements rising up. They get to push an entire agenda based of a failed immigration policy, but how would they actually fix/change the immigration policy?
Dude, stop asking difficult questions. Slogans and 140-character oneliners is where it's at!
On June 20 2016 22:14 Uldridge wrote: What I've noticed, these last couple of years, not only in European politics, but how politics is done in gerenal is that fingerpointing gets you where you want. And I'm absolutely appalled by it. You see a problem and sure there are going to be problems (there are always going to be problems), but instead of fixing those problems you start an entire narrative, with the only set of arguments that the current situation is not one that the people want/need, and that a 180° turn needs to be made. Is that the solution, a 180° turn on everything? But how will that actually change the situation? It's all hypotheticals and I most of the times fail to see the supposed changes of complete change in (inter)national economy/politics.
Someone pointed out the huge unemployment in Greece/Italy/... Ok, sure. Now how is a potential leave from the EU going to fix that unemployment rate?
The people coming up with these things, in my opinion, actually have no clue either what to do about the situation and they're all speculating on how it'll become better, using the naivety of the general population. "Oh it's bad right now, so I guess if we completely change everything about our current situation it'll be better!"
It's the same with the people complaining about the immigration situation and the far right movements rising up. They get to push an entire agenda based of a failed immigration policy, but how would they actually fix/change the immigration policy?
I couldn't agree more. The whole notion of proper, gentlemanly, intelligent debate has gone out of the window. Sure, you can have a good conversation on TL about some of this stuff because people on here are generally pretty intelligent and measured and tend to think before they press post. Some of the shit I read on Facebook and Twitter on a daily basis though is a disgrace, and this isn't coming from the grassroots, its trickling down from the very top. That's why I was so utterly pleased when Khan won the race to be Mayor. It was a victory for decency, a victory for politicians talking about issues and engaging properly. It can change, but the problem is how well it has worked for the Tories. Crosby needs to go back to America and stop screwing with our politics. I have become quite the left winger because of how disgusted I am with how Cameron & co have behaved over the 6 years. Because of this I have found myself engaging with people who are equally as bad on the left wing side of things. If only people would do proper research, and try to see the world from a point of view other than their own, we could have a proper political debate. If only people would embrace the nature of compromise as a necessary part fo democracy, then we could make some progress.
When you can't debate you critic the debate. The situation of politics nowadays is largely the result of politicians and pro europeans, not due to the people. Where was the debate on immigration policy in europe ? Where was the debate on economic policy in europe ? Uldridge comments are a caricature. It's the third post where he is basically saying the leave campaign are whiny bitches that don't have any "solutions" : he has not understood much of the actual debate in regards to europe (which is not about finding solutions for a problem yet, but about debating the frame through which we can find solutions - at the european level or at the national level - with the underlying belief for many that the european level is entirely impotent or undemocratic and can't progress due to the different interests that structure the EU).
On June 21 2016 07:35 WhiteDog wrote: When you can't debate you critic the debate. The situation of politics nowadays is largely the result of politicians and pro europeans, not due to the people. Where was the debate on immigration policy in europe ? Where was the debate on economic policy in europe ? Uldridge comments are a caricature. It's the third post where he is basically saying the leave campaign are whiny bitches that don't have any "solutions" : he has not understood much of the actual debate in regards to europe (which is not about finding solutions for a problem yet, but about debating the frame through which we can find solutions - at the european level or at the national level - with the underlying belief for many that the european level is entirely impotent or undemocratic and can't progress due to the different interests that structure the EU).
*Sigh* Yes debate is lacking AND ITS ALL THE FAULT OF THE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT.
On June 21 2016 07:35 WhiteDog wrote: When you can't debate you critic the debate. The situation of politics nowadays is largely the result of politicians and pro europeans, not due to the people. Where was the debate on immigration policy in europe ? Where was the debate on economic policy in europe ? Uldridge comments are a caricature. It's the third post where he is basically saying the leave campaign are whiny bitches that don't have any "solutions" : he has not understood much of the actual debate in regards to europe (which is not about finding solutions for a problem yet, but about debating the frame through which we can find solutions - at the european level or at the national level - with the underlying belief for many that the european level is entirely impotent or undemocratic and can't progress due to the different interests that structure the EU).
*Sigh* Yes debate is lacking AND ITS ALL THE FAULT OF THE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT.
So boring and pointless.
You have reading deficiencies ? I asked specific questions (where was the open and european debate on important european subjects ? In european nation, it's the people that have the sovereignty, not the representatives) and tried to frame the debate and you go all caps lock, you sure know how to debate.
If only people would do proper research, and try to see the world from a point of view other than their own, we could have a proper political debate. If only people would embrace the nature of compromise as a necessary part fo democracy, then we could make some progress.
Read : "If only people were as intelligent as I am and accepted my perspective as only one".
I think it might be hard to let things become legislated on a higher tier than the national. Simply because there's a different interest on too many things. I get that. Different nations want different things. That's why this union is so difficult. However, why is there a union, then? Is it for stability on every level? Is it to stand as one block in the world instead of 28 different tiny ones?
I completely understand that people want to bring back the debate to perhaps another level, but this heavily implies there will be solutions attached to them and I don't necessarily see that. Sure you can always criticise how something is being ran, I'm heavily in favour of it. I'm not, however, in favour of how that criticism is being made.
Edit: I forgot an entire part about the immigration fiasco. How should debates be had about how a unified continent should act about a stream of immigration? Does your country, other than the people in charge ask for public opinion about what to do? Would they? You can't sit on your arse and politely discuss about what to do when actions need to be taken and the representatives are there to try to solve the problem. Was it handled in a good matter? To be honest, I don't even know if it was done poorly or well, because it doesn't directly influence me, but I have seen pretty shitty solutions for the refugees. All I know is that finding direct solutions for a thing that is knocking down your door and when you're barely prepared isn't easy. I think the best course of action was that every nation should've done their own part in correlation to economic and infrastructural possibility.
On June 21 2016 07:43 WhiteDog wrote: You have reading deficiencies ? I asked specific questions (where was the open and european debate on important european subjects ? In european nation, it's the people that have the sovereignty, not the representatives) and tried to frame the debate and you go all caps lock, you sure know how to debate. [
We've been talking about nothing but European subjects, especially immigration for like the whole past year. And not just in arcane backdoor rooms but it has literally dominated pretty much every household. You couldn't escape the discussion if you wanted do.
The problem isn't so much that there isn't a discussion happening but that some people with very obscure opinions fueled by perceived social media support want to dominate a discussion or create a certain climate because they feeling that they are the 'true' majority.
On June 21 2016 07:35 WhiteDog wrote: When you can't debate you critic the debate. The situation of politics nowadays is largely the result of politicians and pro europeans, not due to the people. Where was the debate on immigration policy in europe ? Where was the debate on economic policy in europe ? Uldridge comments are a caricature. It's the third post where he is basically saying the leave campaign are whiny bitches that don't have any "solutions" : he has not understood much of the actual debate in regards to europe (which is not about finding solutions for a problem yet, but about debating the frame through which we can find solutions - at the european level or at the national level - with the underlying belief for many that the european level is entirely impotent or undemocratic and can't progress due to the different interests that structure the EU).
The debate on those policies is done a couple of times per week in the European Parliament. You know, that democratically elected government institution no-one bothers to vote for once election time is there because getting one's arse off the couch is too tiring. The people who complain about the lack of democratic accountability of the EU are usually those who can't be bothered to vote.
EPT![[image loading]](http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/charts/united-kingdom-balance-of-trade.png?s=uktbttba&v=201606152111n&d1=19160101&d2=20161231)
![[image loading]](http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/charts/united-kingdom-current-account.png?s=ukca&v=201606141716n&d1=19160101&d2=20161231)
