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United States42849 Posts
On August 29 2019 02:54 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 02:48 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:36 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 02:32 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:25 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 02:14 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy. The referendum didn’t support this. It’s not about agreeing with the will of the people, it’s that nothing in the expressed will of the people said they wanted this to happen. It’s the difference between wanting to go to counseling or maybe separate and burning the whole house down. When Denmark joined EU, we didn't know all we would get, we have EU courts that have ruined many of our social services, don't let us kick out criminals that rape and murderer to protect there rights, we didn't sign up for that when we voted. Ask Greece about how EU now run the financial policy. Did you really believe u could just vote out and then get out the way UK wanted without rest of EU having a say. Are you attempting the “two wrongs make a right” argument right now? The British public did not vote for this and do not want this. There is no democratic mandate for this. No I am saying u voted something respect it. It is like if u voted in normal election have politicians ever keept every promise that elected them. If u voted stay, should the rest for parliament make going forward with that decision impossible if they could. And if the British public had voted to crash out of the EU suddenly and with no plan then you’d have a point. But they did not and therefore you have no point. Nobody voted for this. To repeat my earlier point again, if the vote was “are you happy in this marriage?” then what Boris is doing is burning the house down with your wife and kids still in it and saying that this is what you wanted because you were basically unsure but 2% more “no” than “yes”. I'm not sure how accurate it is to call this suddenly on the timescale of Brexit. Since the referendum we've been like a dog trapped in a locked car rolling down a hill a 2mph towards a landmine, with a crowd of MPs watching and arguing over what to do about it.
Suddenly in the sense that there is no gradual transition. From the perspective of a company that imports stuff the commercial location that used to be the UK will cease to exist overnight and a new country with a new set of rules (tbd) will appear. This is a transition that should take years to gradually be processed and which they’re still vaguely trying to avert. The process is going to be as sudden as a landmine detonation.
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This whole outcry over proroguing for 3 extra parliamentary days is ridiculous and will alienate most Britains outside of London. An election is coming its pretty inevitable now and Boris will probably win a landslide in the current environment.
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On August 29 2019 03:37 Zaros wrote:
This whole outcry over proroguing for 3 extra parliamentary days is ridiculous and will alienate most Britains outside of London. An election is coming its pretty inevitable now and Boris will probably win a landslide in the current environment. My issue is with the suspension at all, not the extra days.
Shutting down parliament at a crucial time like the month before Brexit seems incredibly stupid and wilfully damaging.
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On August 29 2019 04:13 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 03:37 Zaros wrote:
This whole outcry over proroguing for 3 extra parliamentary days is ridiculous and will alienate most Britains outside of London. An election is coming its pretty inevitable now and Boris will probably win a landslide in the current environment. My issue is with the suspension at all, not the extra days. Shutting down parliament at a crucial time like the month before Brexit seems incredibly stupid and wilfully damaging.
They were due to break for party conferences anyway, parliament isn't doing anything useful over brexit, only movement is from the government talks with the EU over changes to the deal if any and they can still happen or a general election which is only going to happen with a no confidence vote. If Parliament is that upset over Boris it can kick him out next week.
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Hmm...
"...was accused of treason against England by using his power to pursue his personal interest rather than the good of the country"
"The charge stated that he, "for accomplishment of such his designs, and for the protecting of himself and his adherents in his and their wicked practices, to the same ends hath traitorously and maliciously levied war against the present Parliament, and the people therein represented"
"...wicked designs, wars, and evil practices of him, the said (...) have been, and are carried on for the advancement and upholding of a personal interest of will, power, and pretended prerogative to himself and his family, against the public interest, common right, liberty, justice, and peace of the people of this nation"
Was ever PM held in contempt of parliament?
On August 29 2019 02:36 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 02:32 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:25 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 02:14 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy. The referendum didn’t support this. It’s not about agreeing with the will of the people, it’s that nothing in the expressed will of the people said they wanted this to happen. It’s the difference between wanting to go to counseling or maybe separate and burning the whole house down. When Denmark joined EU, we didn't know all we would get, we have EU courts that have ruined many of our social services, don't let us kick out criminals that rape and murderer to protect there rights, we didn't sign up for that when we voted. Ask Greece about how EU now run the financial policy. Did you really believe u could just vote out and then get out the way UK wanted without rest of EU having a say. Are you attempting the “two wrongs make a right” argument right now? The British public did not vote for this and do not want this. There is no democratic mandate for this. No I am saying u voted something respect it. It is like if u voted in normal election have politicians ever keept every promise that elected them. If u voted stay, should the rest for parliament make going forward with that decision impossible if they could.
Actually given talk about sovereignity and parliamnet during referendum this is exactly was 52% voted against.
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On August 29 2019 02:36 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 02:32 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:25 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 02:14 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy. The referendum didn’t support this. It’s not about agreeing with the will of the people, it’s that nothing in the expressed will of the people said they wanted this to happen. It’s the difference between wanting to go to counseling or maybe separate and burning the whole house down. When Denmark joined EU, we didn't know all we would get, we have EU courts that have ruined many of our social services, don't let us kick out criminals that rape and murderer to protect there rights, we didn't sign up for that when we voted. Ask Greece about how EU now run the financial policy. Did you really believe u could just vote out and then get out the way UK wanted without rest of EU having a say. Are you attempting the “two wrongs make a right” argument right now? The British public did not vote for this and do not want this. There is no democratic mandate for this. No I am saying u voted something respect it. It is like if u voted in normal election have politicians ever keept every promise that elected them. If u voted stay, should the rest for parliament make going forward with that decision impossible if they could.
What do you want for dinner? Italian or Chinese? You wanted Chinese? Ok here are some fucking cats. Now eat up! This is what you wanted after all!
This is not remotely reasonable. People didn't vote to burn the country to the ground. They voted for leave options in a non binding referendum several years ago.
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Looks like Boris wants to be kicked out with a vote of no confidence. A masterful plan to not be seen as responsible for brexit.
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On August 29 2019 03:37 Zaros wrote:
This whole outcry over proroguing for 3 extra parliamentary days is ridiculous and will alienate most Britains outside of London. An election is coming its pretty inevitable now and Boris will probably win a landslide in the current environment.
It's not alienating me.
It shouldn't alienate anyone with a brain.
The Prime Minister should never suspend parliament, nor have the power to do so save in a situation of most absolute emergency, and it's absurd that you don't recognise that on a politics forum.
I don't care if it's for 10 minutes, the Prime Minister doesn't get to suspend parliament.
That's the sort of shit you hear from dictatorships. No no no. For god's sake, no. If we have to crash out of the EU, can we do it while maintaining at least a shred of our dignity as a nation?
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Well they tried to leave eu before,with a deal and all. But parliament blocked that every time.they dont want to have all that again,they want to get it over with so they simply send parliament home. british parliament had their change,3 times even if not more.
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On August 29 2019 08:14 iamthedave wrote:
That's the sort of shit you hear from dictatorships. No no no. For god's sake, no. If we have to crash out of the EU, can we do it while maintaining at least a shred of our dignity as a nation?
Sorry where is the dictatorship here?
Remember David Cameron? “If we vote to leave then we will leave.There will not be another renegotiation or another referendum”.
1:17 - refresh your memory...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsKWsPcRXE
All Boris is doing is respecting the will of the majority in a democratic vote and delivering on the Brexit mandate laid down by his predecessors.Leave means leave, that was all promised and laid out prior to the vote.The undemocratic ones are those trying to stop that process.
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On August 29 2019 08:30 pmh wrote:
Well they tried to leave eu before,with a deal and all. But parliament blocked that every time.they dont want to have all that again,they want to get it over with so they simply send parliament home. british parliament had their change,3 times even if not more.
Do you honestly not see the issue with a PM shutting down parliament when he can't get a policy through? Why shouldn't this be used in the future?
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On August 29 2019 07:19 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Looks like Boris wants to be kicked out with a vote of no confidence. A masterful plan to not be seen as responsible for brexit.
Brexit will happen.
and if he is no-confidenced before Brexit, this won't avoid Brexit, but just give him a nice majority to sit on for the next couple of years.
At this point, one probably should wait with the vote of no confidence until 2 months after Brexit. Once the chaos has hit and even the most deluded realized what they got into.
And then the following reelections can actually be won. And while at it, Corbyn probabably should leave too. Like even in the last hours, he hasn't given up on trying to achieve personal gain. He never cared about the matter itself. If he did, he wouldn't have poisoned every frickin bill by tying it to him becoming PM. The general way how the opposition is united, and how you get people to turn over from the government to your side is certainly not, by always putting yourself, one of the most hated politicians always on top.
Instead of suggesting a "government of national unity", like it is done in most places in crisis situations, where someone neutral is put on top it was always: BUT I MUST BECOME PM... Fuck Corbyn, get out please.
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This could also be a brilliant press ball against EU to get new deal proposal. Think EU is scared about no deal brexit and with no parliament to stop Boris looking like real possibility, I wouldn't be surprised if EU gave comprises to the soft brexit deal in order to stop Boris.
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Yeah, racing your car towards a cliff hoping someone will build a bridge for you in time seems like a sound strategy.
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I wonder what all the Johnson allies who said that this was a stupid idea and would never, ever happen are thinking
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On August 29 2019 14:38 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 07:19 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Looks like Boris wants to be kicked out with a vote of no confidence. A masterful plan to not be seen as responsible for brexit. Brexit will happen. and if he is no-confidenced before Brexit, this won't avoid Brexit, but just give him a nice majority to sit on for the next couple of years. At this point, one probably should wait with the vote of no confidence until 2 months after Brexit. Once the chaos has hit and even the most deluded realized what they got into. And then the following reelections can actually be won. And while at it, Corbyn probabably should leave too. Like even in the last hours, he hasn't given up on trying to achieve personal gain. He never cared about the matter itself. If he did, he wouldn't have poisoned every frickin bill by tying it to him becoming PM. The general way how the opposition is united, and how you get people to turn over from the government to your side is certainly not, by always putting yourself, one of the most hated politicians always on top. Instead of suggesting a "government of national unity", like it is done in most places in crisis situations, where someone neutral is put on top it was always: BUT I MUST BECOME PM... Fuck Corbyn, get out please.
Dunno, seems like waiting for no-deal to happen is a questionable way to stop it from happening. There are still several possible scenarios in which Brexit doesn't happen.
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On August 29 2019 13:06 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 08:14 iamthedave wrote:
That's the sort of shit you hear from dictatorships. No no no. For god's sake, no. If we have to crash out of the EU, can we do it while maintaining at least a shred of our dignity as a nation? Sorry where is the dictatorship here? Remember David Cameron? “If we vote to leave then we will leave.There will not be another renegotiation or another referendum”. 1:17 - refresh your memory... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsKWsPcRXEAll Boris is doing is respecting the will of the majority in a democratic vote and delivering on the Brexit mandate laid down by his predecessors.Leave means leave, that was all promised and laid out prior to the vote.The undemocratic ones are those trying to stop that process.
Yeah let's suspend democracy to protect democracy! The vote was not binding. The vote didn't say "as soon as possible" nor did it say "at any cost". The UK could leave in ten years and still have respected the referendum.
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At least this puts the final nail in the coffin of the argument that Brexit was EVER about democracy or sovereignty. It was about a win for the people who hate the EU, nothing more, nothing less, and now Brexiters are willing to throw our democracy and sovereignty under the bus to get that win quickly.
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On August 29 2019 13:06 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 08:14 iamthedave wrote:
That's the sort of shit you hear from dictatorships. No no no. For god's sake, no. If we have to crash out of the EU, can we do it while maintaining at least a shred of our dignity as a nation? Sorry where is the dictatorship here? Remember David Cameron? “If we vote to leave then we will leave.There will not be another renegotiation or another referendum”. 1:17 - refresh your memory... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsKWsPcRXEAll Boris is doing is respecting the will of the majority in a democratic vote and delivering on the Brexit mandate laid down by his predecessors.Leave means leave, that was all promised and laid out prior to the vote.The undemocratic ones are those trying to stop that process.
First of all, a no-deal Brexit did not get a majority. It wasn't even entertained as a plausible option at the time. Secondly, the Leave campaign was based entirely on lies and half-truths whereas the Remain campaign was rather honest for the most part. So, please, spare us this bullshit about a democratic vote. The Brexiters tried their best to misinform people so that they'd make an uninformed decision.
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EPT
