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United States42849 Posts
On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it.
This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!”
This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins.
Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above.
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Ruth Davidson is on her way out?
Not a good look for Boris, this. If he can't work with people in his own party he's not going to last at all.
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On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above.
I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy.
What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy.
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On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy.
A lot of countries do elections clearly stated to be advisory. Like the Swedish Nuclear one that said we should have stopped with nuclear power decades ago.
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Simple majority referendums on issues of massive public import, complete with bait and switch messaging, are far more amenable to elitist rule than the UK’s feet dragging after folks realized practically everything put forth by Leavers was either a gross exaggeration or an outright lie.
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United States42849 Posts
On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy.
The referendum didn’t support this. It’s not about agreeing with the will of the people, it’s that nothing in the expressed will of the people said they wanted this to happen. It’s the difference between wanting to go to counseling or maybe separate and burning the whole house down.
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United States42849 Posts
On August 29 2019 02:07 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy. A lot of countries do elections clearly stated to be advisory. Like the Swedish Nuclear one that said we should have stopped with nuclear power decades ago.
Constitutionally the UK is unable to have a job advisory referendum due to Parliamentary Sovereignty. This was an explicitly non binding referendum.
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On August 29 2019 02:14 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy. The referendum didn’t support this. It’s not about agreeing with the will of the people, it’s that nothing in the expressed will of the people said they wanted this to happen. It’s the difference between wanting to go to counseling or maybe separate and burning the whole house down.
When Denmark joined EU, we didn't know all we would get, we have EU courts that have ruined many of our social services, don't let us kick out criminals that rape and murderer to protect there rights, we didn't sign up for that when we voted. Ask Greece about how EU now run the financial policy.
Did you really believe u could just vote out and then get out the way UK wanted without rest of EU having a say.
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United States42849 Posts
On August 29 2019 02:25 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 02:14 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy. The referendum didn’t support this. It’s not about agreeing with the will of the people, it’s that nothing in the expressed will of the people said they wanted this to happen. It’s the difference between wanting to go to counseling or maybe separate and burning the whole house down. When Denmark joined EU, we didn't know all we would get, we have EU courts that have ruined many of our social services, don't let us kick out criminals that rape and murderer to protect there rights, we didn't sign up for that when we voted. Ask Greece about how EU now run the financial policy. Did you really believe u could just vote out and then get out the way UK wanted without rest of EU having a say.
Are you attempting the “two wrongs make a right” argument right now? The British public did not vote for this and do not want this. There is no democratic mandate for this.
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Is this the timeline where Bercow starts smacking people with that golden mace?
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On August 29 2019 02:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 02:25 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 02:14 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy. The referendum didn’t support this. It’s not about agreeing with the will of the people, it’s that nothing in the expressed will of the people said they wanted this to happen. It’s the difference between wanting to go to counseling or maybe separate and burning the whole house down. When Denmark joined EU, we didn't know all we would get, we have EU courts that have ruined many of our social services, don't let us kick out criminals that rape and murderer to protect there rights, we didn't sign up for that when we voted. Ask Greece about how EU now run the financial policy. Did you really believe u could just vote out and then get out the way UK wanted without rest of EU having a say. Are you attempting the “two wrongs make a right” argument right now? The British public did not vote for this and do not want this. There is no democratic mandate for this.
No I am saying u voted something respect it. It is like if u voted in normal election have politicians ever keept every promise that elected them. If u voted stay, should the rest for parliament make going forward with that decision impossible if they could.
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On August 29 2019 02:36 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 02:32 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:25 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 02:14 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy. The referendum didn’t support this. It’s not about agreeing with the will of the people, it’s that nothing in the expressed will of the people said they wanted this to happen. It’s the difference between wanting to go to counseling or maybe separate and burning the whole house down. When Denmark joined EU, we didn't know all we would get, we have EU courts that have ruined many of our social services, don't let us kick out criminals that rape and murderer to protect there rights, we didn't sign up for that when we voted. Ask Greece about how EU now run the financial policy. Did you really believe u could just vote out and then get out the way UK wanted without rest of EU having a say. Are you attempting the “two wrongs make a right” argument right now? The British public did not vote for this and do not want this. There is no democratic mandate for this. No I am saying u voted something respect it. It is like if u voted in normal election have politicians ever keept every promise that elected them. If u voted stay, should the rest for parliament make going forward with that decision impossible if they could. The point Kwark is trying to make is that Leave includes a whole range of degrees of leaving that all got lumped into one which caused it to win.
The group of people that want to Remain is bigger then the group that wants a hard brexit at any cost. But since the latter got thrown in with 'Leave but not really' and 'Leave but with a deal' (and neither of those is willing to compromise with the Remain to avoid a no deal exit) this is where we are now.
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On August 29 2019 02:32 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Is this the timeline where Bercow starts smacking people with that golden mace?
If you hit Boris behind the ear with it all his hair goes black and he levels up with magic powers. Bad idea.
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Stephen Fry puts it nicely
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What i don't understand is why u didn't put up brexit deal or hard breakout for election.
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United States42849 Posts
On August 29 2019 02:36 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 02:32 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:25 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 02:14 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy. The referendum didn’t support this. It’s not about agreeing with the will of the people, it’s that nothing in the expressed will of the people said they wanted this to happen. It’s the difference between wanting to go to counseling or maybe separate and burning the whole house down. When Denmark joined EU, we didn't know all we would get, we have EU courts that have ruined many of our social services, don't let us kick out criminals that rape and murderer to protect there rights, we didn't sign up for that when we voted. Ask Greece about how EU now run the financial policy. Did you really believe u could just vote out and then get out the way UK wanted without rest of EU having a say. Are you attempting the “two wrongs make a right” argument right now? The British public did not vote for this and do not want this. There is no democratic mandate for this. No I am saying u voted something respect it. It is like if u voted in normal election have politicians ever keept every promise that elected them. If u voted stay, should the rest for parliament make going forward with that decision impossible if they could.
And if the British public had voted to crash out of the EU suddenly and with no plan then you’d have a point. But they did not and therefore you have no point. Nobody voted for this.
To repeat my earlier point again, if the vote was “are you happy in this marriage?” then what Boris is doing is burning the house down with your wife and kids still in it and saying that this is what you wanted because you were basically unsure but 2% more “no” than “yes”.
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On August 29 2019 02:47 Sapaio wrote:
What i don't understand is why u didn't put up brexit deal or hard breakout for election. Because Brexit doesn't split along party lines so the election that was held didn't actually answer the question.
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On August 29 2019 02:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 02:36 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 02:32 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:25 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 02:14 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 02:02 Sapaio wrote:On August 29 2019 01:24 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2019 01:19 Sapaio wrote:
Isn't the problem that parliament rejected every brexit deal, you can't just drag this out forever. UK voted to leave so I kind of think that the parliament has been undemocratic about this, not Boris Johnson.
I know it sucks to leave but u did vote for it, if only it meant you could roll back the bad things that EU do but you properly have to live with most of it. This is like if you said you were unhappy in a marriage so Boris burns down your house with your wife and kids inside and then says “What are you complaining about? You said you were unhappy!” This is very much not what 52% of people said they wanted. On a purely pragmatic point of view the collapse of the pound has driven up the prices of everything for British consumers. If the choice had been between Remain and Leave with a 20% petrol price increase I very much doubt Leave wins. Parliament refusing to govern is a problem though. They were offered to a choice between May’s deal and Remain and they went with none of the above. I can understand you are unhappy, if we compare to a divorce it feels like that u declare a divorce but don't want to sign the papers until u get everything u want. Then it ends messy. What I mean is that I can't understand the democratic principal that allows parliament to postpone the election results endlessly because they didn't agree with it to begin with. That seem more of elitist rule than democracy. The referendum didn’t support this. It’s not about agreeing with the will of the people, it’s that nothing in the expressed will of the people said they wanted this to happen. It’s the difference between wanting to go to counseling or maybe separate and burning the whole house down. When Denmark joined EU, we didn't know all we would get, we have EU courts that have ruined many of our social services, don't let us kick out criminals that rape and murderer to protect there rights, we didn't sign up for that when we voted. Ask Greece about how EU now run the financial policy. Did you really believe u could just vote out and then get out the way UK wanted without rest of EU having a say. Are you attempting the “two wrongs make a right” argument right now? The British public did not vote for this and do not want this. There is no democratic mandate for this. No I am saying u voted something respect it. It is like if u voted in normal election have politicians ever keept every promise that elected them. If u voted stay, should the rest for parliament make going forward with that decision impossible if they could. And if the British public had voted to crash out of the EU suddenly and with no plan then you’d have a point. But they did not and therefore you have no point. Nobody voted for this. To repeat my earlier point again, if the vote was “are you happy in this marriage?” then what Boris is doing is burning the house down with your wife and kids still in it and saying that this is what you wanted because you were basically unsure but 2% more “no” than “yes”.
I'm not sure how accurate it is to call this suddenly on the timescale of Brexit.
Since the referendum we've been like a dog trapped in a locked car rolling down a hill a 2mph towards a landmine, with a crowd of MPs watching and arguing over what to do about it.
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Did I missed something or did UK have election to leave EU or not.
In US they elected Trump and other presidents Some times with over 50% voting for other candidate. Does that mean he shouldn't be put in office.
You had years to make deal and parliament refused every time, blame parliament not Johnson.
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The UK did not hold an election similar to the ones we hold in the US, you did miss something.
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EPT
